Audiovisual Cultures episode 115 – Performance Art with Richard James Hall automated transcript

Show notes
This conversation with artist Richard James Hall was recorded and broadcast for the Slack's Radio residency as part of Blazing New Worlds at the NewBridge Project in January 2022. 
Discussion topics include: 
    • performance art, drawing, creativity, video, Instagram Live, curating  
    • disability, autism, bodies, being queer 
    • engagements with other artists such as Sally Madge and Victoria Gray 
    • the arts in Newcastle upon Tyne and North East England 
    • being a member of NewBridge 

Image from Dick’s ‘Crossing the Summer River’ performance in 2016, photo by Arto Polus.
If you enjoy this chat, please give it a good rating and share it with a friend! 
Auto-captioned videos on YouTube.
Recorded using Zencastr on 19 January 2022 and Audacity on 8 February 2022. 
Edited by Paula Blair with Audacity. 
Music: commonGround by airtone (c) copyright 2018 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Noncommercial (3.0) license. 
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hello and welcome to the audio facial cultures the podcast part eight year host Paul let Blair investigate different areas of film media at the arts and cultural production in this episode I am delighted to share with you a recording I am me it's with Newcastle based artist Richard jams hold for the Sox radio residency at the new bridge project a budget which you can find more information by following the links in the show notes wherever you're listening to this deck is a very dear friend of mine and a big supporter of this show and I've been wanting to do a recording with them for awhile so this was a really lovely way to go up by that and I'm really grateful to you you bridge and socks for the opportunity if you'll recall take featured on our special remembering Sally match episode last autumn and it's great night to talk said tech personally up by their own practice which is largely through process and performance arts and if you've been missing for a while you know that to bake and tracks if mine is live performance art so before I pass over to our past selves %HESITATION past pastels huge thanks to all our listeners and said are very generous benefactors over at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures all of you thought make doing this and my very busy January with all of these recordings furry purse while if you love what I'm doing with the show and she can't manage to support the work financially I'd really appreciate it a positive review and rating for every access a podcast and a based on your socials which also be rainy rainy appreciated I'm so grateful when people say that it really means a lot but if you can manage even just a one off if you quit I'd be so grateful for that you can see that so radically on our lovely upgraded website funded by our patrons audio visual cultures dot com where you can also sign up to our mailing list to receive our free monthly newsletter Anthony episodes notifications streets to your inbox as well as access transcripts and generally get more information and thanks for everything to do with me on the show so %HESITATION finale before you run off and deal of science I want you to really enjoy this insightful talks with Dick James hall I know I really enjoyed all my talks Richard GM's hall thank you so much for joining me thank you so much for inviting me Pola it's great to catch up so my first question would you be happy T. describe your practice for everyone in the short term I would say I am a performance artist based in Newcastle upon Tyne the longer way about two days I'm a performance artist who also does I think kinds of whack on the side and has come from a tradition of improvised sectional performance but also realizing and having to think about now the factor of how much being on the autistic spectrum being clear being fast teams and affects myself and the world around me it's a very strange questioning them having to go for you and I'm constantly questioning myself which makes it very hard to think about projects and to be honest practice supplies some just like taking it day by day week by week yet I yes it's a really long time gentle point about that's about how I would describe my practice so follow me thanks I've had the privilege of being able to see your live performance and the before times when it is safe to gather but I also really enjoy aids over the lock time periods here experimental weapons say performances on Instagram life and I think those are where you really explored a lot of those kinds of same set you just flagged off their bite identity and taking up space and moving through space yes and playing with all Jackson just the life work but doing it to where it's calmer and I really enjoyed that a lot as well as those what else specifically would you say you've been working on recently and I think we can be very elastic about what we mean by Yuri sends a header what else would you say if the marking on because I know you do a lot of drawing as well I was doing a lot of touring and I kinda Hey this sort of roadblock because recently about a few months ago I was invited to do my fast performance the audience and %HESITATION via free is actually for no trace without resistance which was a memorial offend for the late great Sally mad shit and for that I was in a lab coat which I had to order in because I thought about wearing Sally's lab coat she was very very much smaller move me so %HESITATION Denton alab coach and that's not code seen some action button days before that offense including doing a trip from shields field on the bus where all the people that go in like keep away from me from the testing site %HESITATION I'm in the middle of town going through old charity shops because I was looking for China plates and China tea cups and all that %HESITATION center Johnston also a fantastic performance artist and I'm just like going through each charity shop going like no no and I'm ending up with this bunch of plates and all this trainer and I'm like going is this right it's cold cold trimming my S. but on foot up on the day itself I had a lint roller I had a few lane troll is some fine French chalk and I'm just proud of the day I was just rolling this Lynch rolled over the fan use cinema scenes because the venue itself is the star channel cinema and I'm just rolling away trying to cover up best hand the little bits of fabric you know about that slapped behind from use and it was interesting actually saying how much of the past is picked up by this this Dastis Moscow time which was very much a tradition that Sally match basically use within have practice which was to pick up on the mundane things and just celebrated so I did that for about five hours in terms of other things apart from being filled with some sort of mysterious bacterial and viral infection I saw a really interesting piece of performance work by another artist called Victoria gray no actually wrote it's very rare that I write in response to artworks but this one just struck me because she actually was addressing being on the autistic spectrum and actually being recently diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum which was really interesting to me and as I'm writing is an essential stuff and I re read it I'm going %HESITATION I'm picking up on stuff that I have experienced that's a few people who I have known have also experienced so in a way my practice is fairly elastic and recently I've also been waking up on the soldiers soft practice launch of a survey of seven matches where at parks docked was trying to install some heroic in waves stat isn't academically structures all institutionally structured but actually played about with SS you are the artists so I've been piling up cuddly toys into the corner of the room I've been trying to stand up cushions which demand select B. fold down benches constantly having this on off discussion about how certain things come alive with the artist's touch robin and perhaps the curatorial touch in Newton so I've been having a bit of discussion with a couple of other people about that about terminal the curators meant to care about classic and yet it's us the artists who actually seem to be showing the most cash and the most dynamic form of cash which is to actually bring to life those wax which was so enormous and also think about how it is the pro sets itself that brings those works to live it's not just like an institutional taxonomy saying process but that's a very this is also lead you can tell I've been doing an MA and hung around PhD student quite a long time because I have that critical for process that's really useful insight actually %HESITATION I really appreciate those ideas I think that's a lovely way of putting it as well as the idea of taking care of the arts not just putting it somewhere in San Mart like slicing no backseat carrying forests and the kitchen she's talking about it especially because they're fragments of fabric that Sally painstakingly closets together and they've been washed up on the shore so who knows where they came from and that speaks of clothes and things you know so they're very human I think her intention was to give some some sort of dynamism and slice and sterile different shapes and sizes just like humans are and there are no billion there by Katie and %HESITATION to silence some bets and just like humans are and they're coming apart sure there you there so soon together they're awful tough it's really wonderful to hear that you've been able to play with those and have thought life experience because I think that's where the passive performance already come site as when you play with things and you have the opportunity to play and sometimes that the material the G. and you facilitate rather than forcing it into something I think that's the key part of any sort to improvise ation %HESITATION performance practice it's all fine and well having the infection diet DHEA but sometimes you have to let yourself be led by the materials besides the people around you yes very much in a dynamic state it's very hard to actually stay static I had my is some artists who actually had to generational static way back but it's just so slow that the melts happens I've tried that once for an hour I couldn't do it I haven't got the practice or the patience for it I'm very much like a ten gentil practitioner eight eight something catches my interest %HESITATION I'm kind of old to okay that sounds really childish in a way that it's just my way of going about it I like the dynamism I like to be invigorated somehow but of course there's also moments where you have to take stock and you have to stand back and actually trying to go like this is no time to Lolo it's do you find that these are quite and cheered us processes C. just really listen to yourself and see what you need today or how much do you allow yourself to you to what extent the G. plan something before you go into S. or GHS have an idea and you see what happens I would say I have an idea it's very read that I has the overall vision of something it's much mall on the emotional scale for me there's no hard structures to really work with apart from perhaps the site itself there are some things you just can never fall so change you can't change your environment entirely without great pains to do so okay your materials there's a level of care with materials but there's also a level of understanding that once you do something destructive you basically kind of took away some fence original intent and you have to live with that and you have to clean up after that I flinch from experience that you have to take responsibility as a performance artist that in a way that you are having show cat to the site to the materials or understand that there is consequences once you destroy the materials people around you because people are unpredictable and there may be times where you may have to shift out a little bit from performance from one performance state to another state to react to another person who may be in the audience at the end of today yeah I also have to care for yourself because it's some nice and well when you have other people supporting you but sometimes when you're actually by yourself as I have been throughout some of the experimental Wednesdays and fraud some of the experiments of had done in public ground wax before you are basically having to take care of yourself and I understand what you need to do to recuperate all what you need to watch out full so there's a responsibility to the play as well and I feel like that's something I'm growing into because when you're young you're sort of slap dash thank god I actually was in a workshop ones and this kids basically interest was going off on one ninety actually was just like destroying everything around him and asked the end defense because we let them go through this let him do what he did and at the end of it I just basically said to him in a way that was so exciting I have been in that place I have been in that destructive area but you have to be away and now that your destruction has caused the fact around you so in a way I was kinda kicking is I'll spend an assaultive caring way and I was trying to show a level of cab actually kind of going like I'm kicking your house right now but only because I want you to let but it because some people don't do that turned and maybe one of the few people to actually step up to the plate to go and make active in the market for yeah so thank you Spain a member of mu Prich for awhile but she sent me that there might be anything you've learned from being part of the French or any experiences you've had particulars Newbridge or is there anything you can reflect on a plate to share experience of being a member I would say as of any studio situation it varies from studio to studio I've been in some tight knit studios where I'm sharing one room with may be for artists or maybe sharing this massive garage with eight to eleven artists with no boundary points and it's interesting to me how new bridge festival in Laos the boundary space so that Joe's studio is your studio and that's something that's in some ways I've really crave tunes because I'm quite a messy studio hold I'm not eighteen Messi I had one studio member years ago and it was that this was the last straw for me we had a shed fridge need basically the last wild mushrooms in the fridge for about a week and when I open the fridge it's like no no well I actually had to get everything out to die frage check out the mushrooms and tried to clean up drive entire fridge and it still smells of mushroom sold the bleaching of acted I concluded it just was like nope bad smells not going what I'm finding less new bridge is for the fact that even for you may have separate studios there's still a community which I really appreciate I'm talking to artists who have just graduated from university and I'm like trying to get them like the little things look like yet try to keep you practice separately studios so you can at least keep up the momentum because we're meant to people who do with Todd courses and then they don't continue to practice you kind of lose the momentum any other use the want to box if you don't keep the practice up but it's interesting as well having talked in whack with members of staff at new bridge as well there is a level okay and there is a level of wanting things to change both within the studio settings but also in the wider spectrum of the community over the last few years especially since I've only came into new bridge September twenty nineteen and there's been times when members of that community has actually supported me when I have been at my lowest lows actually had her back to give me a call of a lockdown ones Rebecca Huggins I rector of new bridge and she basically just wanted to check in on me that's something that I don't think a lot of institutions usually do and I think that shows the amount of cash that's Newbridge shows towards since member is but of course sometimes members also push the lack a little bit and new bridge won't be afraid to choose basically co sought to shed her %HESITATION don't leave your stuff ready for us in this to start fires well I feel like it's also like it's a mix of training ground for recent graduates but also it allows space for older artists to work in a studio setting amongst the community especially with hollow space is a premium now especially in cityscapes and heads of studios outside of the city but it's usually people who have a little bit more money well a little bit more know how about how the infrastructure work ethics and I'm not quite at that place now financially or know how to actually kind of have a space outside yes but I really appreciate new brands on that level it's just a nice space it's somewhere where I would recommend any recent graduates to apply for especially if the local based I was wondering if you have any thoughts about aids the arts in new castle quite generally and across the northeast region that you'd be happy to share I mean you mentioned for example you branch being in shale fields and that's quite a recent maze and premises in the city centre but do you have any thoughts about it but the art scene so I can see what it's like in the city and in the region I would say Newcastle as to not seem itself is a fairly tightly nets group so there are times where there are people who I see two artists who I recognize but I don't quite know of but there's always that sort of thing off when you're walking down the street and you see somebody in your chest notes from the scene and you just give them the slight tilt open knowledge just to kind of go like I see it and because I'm not entirely beneficial me because sometimes if I don't get to tell took the note back when I gave the tilt of the knowledge back and it's like just like for the audio that was two flips of the birds that I think it's well in terms of new castle it is a little bit of a struggle at times because the northeast as a region has always kind of struggled with the odds because we've always been seen as like the leftover region in England itself if anything there are some people in other regions of England who actually consent to Newcastle in northeast actually be heart of Scotland yes so this these questions of like winter we'd be better off if we were in adopted by the Scottish oh do we have to really fight hard to win full funding but it's also back case of new castle has some of the free weights actually experimental work in because economically rent here is not too bad it's actually fairly cheap compared to some of the regions where it's small popular to live and it is it has produced some really great artists of the is what I'm finding as well as some of the great artists that I know of unknown only locally in this the likes of Carol Luby and Sally match for example who they're artists who are locally known and that my it locally but outside of the region it's very much like a nobody quite knows and I find that quite shocking I actually went down to the life of development agency in London I tried to type performance artists from Newcastle upon Tyne there was very little info we have a very rich history of performance and experimental %HESITATION it's shocking but it's also not shocking at the same time and you have to take it as it is you kind of have to take the fact to roles you can have a practice here but you may have to explore outside of the region itself just to get back in touch I will say people from Newcastle have a very good sort of hockey communities well we love to celebrate our own when one of our own actually succeeds in something well like yes yes and when maybe against attrition or something let sit self down what kind of like going gods why and they coasted with any sort of tight knit community there's also like a bit of gossip and chatting behind people's backs and it's even done lovingly or it's done with a bit of exceeding it even today anything like contact him sure well I'd like to spend a little bit team now and again okay so the laugh I'm not afraid to basically say to some people I have said to some fairly successful mid career artists bullshit I'm not afraid because I'm now at the point I'm very five I know I'm not going to be like famous all have the money I'm just being honest to myself to the community around me and also just kind of go in like time is precious if you're not going to be honest it sometimes leads to bad situations where is the honesty itself can actually be quite transporters and can help take away some of the egotism the one thing I will say is we can probably do a little bit more criticality but in the sense of kind of going like what being critical but in a supportive manner and I have said some things which I probably put me in the back big swells fewer people %HESITATION I've had a few conversations with curators just kind of going like really but it's just life I love it here it's the one place I feel the most me acts as I tried doing it down in London and London does my head in London's a place I know I have to visit at least may be recall kind that make I knew I had to visit the least once a year because it's just the way of the Welton but if I could help it I wouldn't go down Sutherland as much but %HESITATION I trying to also bring news of new castle to go outside of the region and just kind of go like come yes hello my pipe and done that's medic to pay you just have to scratch the surface a little bit and not be afraid of because sometimes we'll hang about in some of the dingy pilot sometime as well and just be like it's not this bad doesn't let X. I had one taxi driver tried to pick me up once a bank at me just was like well it's Raphael lake and I was like have you been in battle your chest list anywhere like that like I just went it's not that rusty and free and come through Russia places before and I'm just like this is a very thank you so much for this where can people find out more about you and your work query to point them towards online you can look me up on Instagram at St James hold because people also call me desk I call myself sometimes mistake mistake made today one day I hope to be doctor did they also and website I has W. W. dots judge James whole duct weekly dot com you might just want to type in Richard James hall artist of it and just give it a go that's what you know you're on the right page when you see somebody who's just like quite fast with long head and the first images like trust me I'm a slow going like the electorate for folks thank you so much thank you son upset pleasure I always love our tasks and it's not brilliant to have this proper a more formal chat with each day and I really appreciate it and I hope you have a lovely rest of your day thank you so much I hope to get disposable tea with you say please it Hey right I just wanted to see extend my thanks to check again for thanks and I hope that they'll return so that we can go into a lot more detail on a lot of those issues three is there because I think there are things that we started to touch on that merit a lot more dapps but I was recording this for quite a tight time slots so it was a fairly concise conversation so I thought I'd just take the opportunity nine AM I'm recording this in February doing a bit of time traveling because that talk was probably set the thirty year it was originally recorded in January around mid January %HESITATION as early as February and yeah it's really nice opportunity actually there are some Bach over these and reflect on them a little bit and take out some ideas on how you to maybe develop some more of these themes and issues that are coming up across these episodes the next one is going to be the third of the recordings that I did for the S. with Bethany stats so that's a really lovely conversation as well so please stay keep subscribe and then check out our latest file yes so I just thought I'd take a minute because that has been a fairly short bonds is just perfect about more and some of the observations I think there's a lot of crossover here with the professional and the personal three some of the things that tech was referring to there I'd really like take knowledge that we seem a bit snappy up by arch curators and more formal and institutionalized approaches to presenting wrecking galleries and exhibitions I mean I try to be really open minded but you know sometimes is laptop and I stepped up in this one of bets and probably come across is but negative and part G. T. not to create practices we encounters are Ryan the commemorative events for Sally match that we mentioned and those events took place in November of twenty twenty one and I just wanna be radiate beauty care every single person who works in all of those events in the exhibition and everything we all contributed to our time for for a the curators particularly that so out quite great personal cost to themselves and it was hugely stressful under very challenging circumstances I'm very limiting circumstances as well but on the other side of that they also didn't listen to the wishes of those of us who actually worked directly with Sally's pieces and I felt that they made some presentation decisions that they thought looked nice looked as good as they kids and the space that they were given but I think there were others of us he felt that these particular presentations of specific things were missteps I am being deliberately vague here I'm not naming things directly I'm not going to name many people I just felt that you know there were quite a few of us who have a lot more knowledge and understanding of the contacts the rind a lot of the work and physically works with them as well I did a lot of finishing of Sally's unfinished pieces not just me other people that that sort of work as well so there is a lot of very invisible labor that went behind getting the pieces ready for exhibition and also for Sally's physical archives and I just felt that the missteps and hi some of these representatives and the gallery it probably should at a potentially negative lights if your roof year he came in cold and you really engaged actively with the pace and sought its rate I don't think you have come to a very positive conclusion so again I'm being really vague but if you witness center if you seen images of it you might be able to work out what I'm talking about yes but I'm not gonna talk about it directly and there is a little bit of my thinking on this because I I do I wrote a blog post thinking three and she's around part labor and not something I've talked I talked at length with Sally about eats there's also a particular thing that happens with something I mean it's that I posted on my end my personal Instagram page so if you want to go to a gang you're welcome to go and hunt for those but I'm not going to thanks to them directly as I say I don't want to name any names and I don't actually think it's first ready to piling on too much and this is probably I hope the last probably talk about it thanks bye everybody who was involved contributed to with the opposite passive intentions and this isn't hello I think it's worse dying on edge is what I will say I think it's more it sparks rather than the personal it sparked more of an intellectual curiosity about art the upper and the worst of work and those are two things again all things I talk to bite off miss Holly and I keep bringing up on this podcast nobody seems to be getting the message not enough people are listening to %HESITATION maybe maybe everybody less since this gets the message and I need more of these people to listen and get the message so what I would like to say is that I would like to see more respect and consideration for art laborers are two workers and recognition that an artist might have their name on something but they don't necessarily make the work on and Sally's case that was different because she died she was making the work herself and then she died and so a bunch of us finished at or did something less the things that were and transaction but it's something I was thinking out about it a lot anyway with Sam you know sort of more bigger Anne am CMS artists he got loads of money thrown at them or make use of money in the right Sally wasn't one of those people but even still even just out workers doing that Leah Byrne but you I give a lot of my summer last year to doing the work of putting these pieces together and finishing things and I don't care about recognition but what happened in my case was that something of mine was actually destroyed so it's not to stop it you know I don't care about being raised in carpet being visible but something I actually made it and dead with my bare hands was destroyed in the process of this is the way it brandy spun me on a train of thought of thinking about partly uppers and our keepers here at once the CM mass and distinct from artists so this is an issue that was presented front and center and so much of Sally's work to the point that she did performances for what she need pen badges that sads flux worker on them and that was specific to you when she was responding three performance to the flux this retrospective oil tank and two thousand nine and this was a performance that perished but tech was talking about right there an artist's caring for other artists work to really extremes quite funny extremes but also she was provocative of thought and I'll link to some of that work in the show notes and so %HESITATION and turn that's what a few of the state for Sally spark in the year following her death we cared for her work I felt for a person a Costa Sally when I was working with her pieces you know I would have her some of her cations sitting on me while I closed them up and stop is very meaningful because it felt like a kid how good this thing that was part of her and it was very personal but that's not the peace and I'm really talking about aids I think the thing that was really hurtful for me on a personal level was set at an embroidered dedication of very small embroidered dedication I had put on one of the really large pieces I had made artistic bets Sally never called tape was baptized with light me being notified without being asked I turned up to the opening night and I saw that it was gone and I thought I was going mad and on the I had taken a photograph of it at home before I gave it away I knew I wasn't going completely mass on it I had actually so nice then on it was just wrapped ice I was completely gone it wasn't even discovered over it was just gone and so I think there's quite a few here sis because obviously it was personally a bet on the front but then it also files a lot more generally like in the front seat the visibility of the art worker and merging from the artist's shadow and this was something solely did quite a lot and her art she laid bare the process of the worker Ryan to making art if you listen back to my episode with her one of her performances cold making a mass and cleaning it up her whole performance is a bite you know she doesn't aren't working as pages and then most of the performance is actually her cleaning up the mess that she's made for the performance so there's a collapse of the artwork in the art labor and then what is performance and what is just cleaning up the collapse into each other and a very very tiny way this was something I was referencing was just to making the work Abed visible and mine of AC isn't terribly powerful and I wouldn't call him anything like that but it's just in my own little way doing something that I think Sally may have approved often that I discussed with her quite a bit not any other layers thought is that embroidery and needlework are considered as Croft's rather than art again this is something that has come up in the podcast before if you go back to one of our earlier episodes while Coulthard crafts this is something that me and my gas and not absolute talk about it at length as well as what's processes what methods are even considered to be arch so my hand stitched embroidered writing wasn't considered art by these curators and I mean I don't know they're thinking about it because I haven't spoken to me and that's that's part of the problem is that they've never communicated with me I spoke to them on the opening night before I had to realize what had happened and it just even speaking to them for a few minutes it was really clear that the result law they didn't know up by the pieces that I and another person had finished and the pieces that I it by myself had me it's the richest so much detail they didn't have and they have my email address I am easy to reach him easy to find I picked myself all over the internet I'm not hiding anywhere folks again there's a lot going on there so I don't want to just when you bite it too much but yeah so it got me thinking about eight not just for me in a personal level but for just those larger questions I think about it he gets to be an artist walk gets to be an artwork what gets to be an art pro sass you know I think we're still not answering those questions adequately with Sally staff there is no I. another lock and he is asking those questions through the work itself three the process itself and so I suppose I just really wanted to hot spot on because the remains no consensus on high any of these things can really be property defines and he gets said to find not and I suppose a presented us with the fact that there is still very stringent can't keep bang of the bi injuries Orion's creative practice creative practices and so I thought I would just sit through those extra observation site there and just ask you to think about I thought for a bit so thanks if you've listened to my little extra rumbled huge thanks again C. deck I hope that that's gonna stop by to my system thank you for this

Audiovisual Cultures episode 114 – Vane with Paul Stone and Chris Yeats automated transcript

hello and welcome to the audio visual cultures hi I'm Paul left in there thank you for joining me for another foray into the world of media arts and culture this conversation was originally recorded as a contribution to the Sox radio residency at the new bridge project a new bridge is an artist's studio gallery and project space in Newcastle upon Tyne and the north east of England's more information about all of that is linked in the show notes wherever you're accessing this episode's along with lots of other useful links a bite to taste casts I'm really pleased to present this longer cuts of my chats with directors of V. N. pol stone and Chris units he generously talk through some of fans history as an artist led organisation and gallery and its recent necessitated may from Newcastle city it's heads we also talked about the impact of the pandemic as well as the lingering ramifications of the T. Tyson its economic crash and I just all of these things have affected the arts psychology and funding and everything quite generally hopefully by the time this episode releases there will be firm our plans that we can share a bite what twenty twenty T. is looking like for fan which significantly has its twenty fifth anniversary in the summer do check our socials for that we are AT cultures pods I'll probably be doing a lot of sharing of what fan are up to date I know as I record this certainty on Instagram they're sharing past exhibitions that they want to highlight from the past twenty five years do you check them by their fee and calorie wherever you're taking foreign socials as ever a huge big massive thank you you too all our listeners fortune and then answer all of our very generous patrons at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures for keeping us going as you'll hear in this episode it's a really tough climate for all areas of arts and the creative industries just nine and a big message coming out of this conversation is the arts are non negotiable and we need to fight for them we need to fight as well for her arts criticism I always keep coming back to see the conversations I always had was solidly match appoints folly and worse so I really hope that and if you're listening can take away some messages safari around the sayings and that we can really start to push back on the cuts were facing an arts and humanities education and the arts and culture sector for now I am going to pass you over to Poland Chris it's reedy radian site file hope you get a lot I defend I hope it does give you some food for thought and we can really figure out how we can make our best friend Paul stone and see it thank you so much for joining me for the S. hyphen really came to speak to both surprised fan for some time and I'm just delighted at this socks media residents say giving me the excuse to finally jump and then to give you both the Shiites the Syrian was established in nineteen ninety seven and I think it C. H. and the timing of that is something we might talk about a little bit but Kitty chief he and turned describe your roles as directors and maybe a bit of your own history with B. N. O. tri poll first and then move on to crest so be nice to get the voice attached to damn sis while I say %HESITATION I'm told I'm the creative director of Bain and I'm also gonna tie rack to choose kinds of direct summoned director bangs company the old side %HESITATION great start speeds and chalk Graham the sole saying many of the things they send you to this in your organization startup challenge talks between us the point is to decide is that it didn't actually sets banging up with those involved from the very early days and since I'm from express to the public manifestation everything is kind of thought into this role rather than you know it wasn't a job that I applied for because there was no joke start with helps creates the joke we're not backgrounds and since the northeast as I came here as students in the late eighties I went to North America which I have a BA and MA in fine all fine despite this is not just after graduation lodging mice and stuff I was doing was outside the region one of the things that led me to come and vote in organizing projects and become a trusted name when it was set up was the fact that there weren't many opportunities for artists in the northeast so we decided to make all right basically all right Chris all the time right just saying we are obviously a small organization but we have a long history I will was involved from the initial steps back in the nineties I was actually it also student at Northumbria but I was doing my MA and I found out this was an organization promoting normalization group of artists not just used to meet on a regular basis and pumps on the city center and we were really just talking shop people just get together and discuss the work and it was first mooted at one of those meetings back in ninety six that'd be good to have a grassroots event it was at that point that we decided to kind of what would be called a festival but it seems a venture round the city affection that became strained ninety seven the first thing thanks was it was it was a way of actually creating opportunities for artists in the area we always wanted to do something which showcased what was going on it was it was an open access is not so it's going to be obnoxious to any any %HESITATION two stocks were involved just say I'm just I'm actually from the northeast originally so when you counsel I've moved all over the country so I got to get my first degree down college sitting in MA a relatively light sentences choose student I suppose at nothing but it was way back into my practice is at that point she done any organizing the other shows so that was a big move I think that was moved over to the dark side okay as a group producing web select but it knows only van offense the first four from nineteen ninety seven to two thousand both caught myself did participate as artists later on we moved to sack not really going to appoint that's enough for the world about me that's okay Sanchi it's really great said here more papers if you're back crimes because you do so much facilitating of so many other artists so it's nice to have a bit of the spotlight on each TV I think in case there's anyone listening he doesn't know very much about eight A. N. hi E. G. thank everybody best describes nice are you giving us a nice idea of the history of high it emerged by hiding his head being operating Grady said Stan is quite difficult questions one that sort of constant eight Texas so do not just cases I mean it's not longer story could cost you see results of the developments in the outlook examining some of that over this year because we're doing a lot of work on the knock on so global data sets this kind of sort of mold on two faces divine this is been a long process but to answer your question we started out we called ourselves not just that organization that is crisp wanted out because we when it became more of a job as an admin I'm developing payments which you didn't at the beginning research aside from not this office now we more recently this is possible working through decades a couple decades we've beginning to defuse the phrase office that again we're not sure I'm working on just because we feel that that is a good description of what we do and it never really wasn't the case spot iron artistic practice might just put on the back burner as he became boss everywhere organizes curates as soon as ISIS we're not sure that's always been very very much Cole how we approach this a project is the times being an artistic practice that is a long conversation about what is autistic watches and you use it he doesn't we've been very much involved in the world and by me throughout thank you St city of deciding what the best model for us cells Wallace is always been very much picking and choosing what we thought were the best bet some of the models means that are eating their guidance when we set up from the licensing process in network I'm still looking things to die and not more so it is interesting to us either that's something that we should be working as well whether it be looking at stuff and saying that's what shouldn't be happening you know what we do is such a good reaction because that's part of the process is still to formulating what we do move anybody comes out so it's a decision I really lost during the time that it also comes in which the public profile like lots of places because we've been open classes until such relocates nastiest US secretary print so it's almost like we re imagined now what is that and using the title let's say this whole sordid bites not readable is office that we should use it the people should be using lots of going back to history of how old the sort of what if you want to call it a group that would be impossible around the U. caning the paroled unless things start up Oxlade I would argue not radiologists that anymore because they become institutionalized one thing that runs through paying nothing Kay is a resistance to being institutionalized not serve challenging place to be in because it means it's not just a sort of Stalin's successor purist on cementing light box if you pay the price stocks as well as in like if you don't take certain routes you know you will get money for certain things I mean we do get some money for things that you know it keeps you in a certain neurons lands in some cases the banks sector releases such as my son overground to say isn't it in resistance what was happening at the time and I think there's always been a little bit of a gentleman be spiking a set that is almost like sitting in a straight night refusing to do things in a certain way not just sheer bloody mindedness that just because I actually think that's a different way to do it what is almost been reluctant to use one of the terms of we don't so we don't think of myself as curates such neither was a come from a formal Q. rating background since our June the PMA in that subject we've always taken the parts of the world in order to facilitate something is about to turn for what we do and that we never really have a presented a sort of heavy handed approach he said this is the team this is what you're going to do I mean we do we have put shows together just seems but would also allow the boxes the room about not so it's never been a question of we have to tell you to what was done in terms of obviously there are we talking actually how we assist in certain ways but we we've never taken our very very heavy handed this is the socks into it that makes the program is directed by artists yes so that's kind of who gets too great a focus leads down to a number of things that we some that's proactively submitted by exit why does some bits comes to us from what I've heard anything from direct proposals to you maybe negotiation every years of people saying what about this idea so it's values you know I'll let live open to not stand can be minimal to quite major not where the level when he publicly viewable I'm not gonna talk about CD cases this is not meant to be a suspect is not an ego driven yeah duration even if we also involved a correction center definitely think about stocks that thing it means the pregnant friend much is when we work on it and likewise the other discount when working on Saturday shows which took lots and lots of guns in those things come very much is that almost finished products some of them are a lot more loosen on phones and I dare make you work the top kind of artists in more detail in this again that's not to say visible from the outside and neither is it meant to be because it's not about and neither my training it sort of all this open free for all because it's not all anger started like that it is not now we took a long time beating away from now I mean it's kind about trying to do the guiding role then yes imposing there's also some of the changes that will say %HESITATION external ones that ask you do you receive money offices sent things that that sort of expected I don't mean that we do things we don't want to that's not true but again it's not just a sort of personal space I think from the outside we get this clock nothing less people artistically you know kind of thing this set that will die scratching our chins and sums up from down to people's work and it's just so far from the truth whatever you got full stop %HESITATION it's about you know points to five percent of the time it's not I think I mean you know how to say no to a lot of really good things yeah we would really like to date there is you know I mean anything supplied was accidentally gender singing there's no obligations have sort of balance and look outside of our own experience backgrounds incentives it's contents the program negative deal that we did that comes from people I mean but we approach people some of the times people kind of not shy approaching us I mean I think says it's it's it's question moving beyond our own personal tastes about taught me one thing when we try and let me do it it definitely is having this kind of tokenism and the way we program we're very aware of all the debates and ideas all the interested parties what we do it we do it in a when we program in a very %HESITATION and it's passed away it's it's we have our own flavor that we want to get to them as we have our own ideas about it but we we want just to give the artists in the most conclusive way so we want to give them that freedom and that actual voice such a very conscious of being Pachter topic if you open a pick a well actually when I just go over every inclusive in that sense no we not we wouldn't show web that we couldn't stand behind it might not be specifically talk personal texts such a certain nations of what that means you know changeover times I'm wrong it will recurring thing over Baynes longer lifespan now is that the certain things you can say kind of mission or whatever there's been constant from the very beginning things actually taken many folds I mean typically I think I've lost unions grad also wanted to debate about access to but also things that exactly suited within the art world what is it doing shows what should be long long to send email nope not anymore network us on analysis where you actually get the gallery space the last time the weather actually talking to a high concept curated shows whether you're talking about having a group the actually on salt is whatever reason that involving creativity on the looking for space show where what they does is give the space those people yes that would be disingenuous to say that's no kind of negotiation about schools I mean also distant things come gone do for whatever reason would be that society schools complete character but I mean space out trying to get that person talks articulate what they're doing as best as possible with helping them but not trying spokesman gonna be coming up with what he's going to sensitive institution I'm thinking of people sitting in the huge pressure institutionalized itself right now right we have to wait for me to even talk about buying this organization when it's two people to the contrary I think between themselves doesn't work like the stock may be breaking into someone's on your show every now and again yeah I was hoping it again you can make a whole series about what is access we are seeing a random choice seeing as an institution by some people outside because we've been around so long and especially serving abroad this was just that however that would come with you I mean one of the things that's famous founded on walls because when it was just like what you just because you see stuff all the time %HESITATION you know take over not just have a shot I will put you working great but yes things do not solicit I mean the reading walls back in the dog days of nineteen ninety six I mean the fewer calories full stop to be a local law to stand I mean was largely dominated by stock that one of the two universities in New yeah not a great northeast about the wish I was you know when it was new castle the new castle group it was also told that Univest outside the academic system yeah I was not %HESITATION whether student groups result she bangs early beginnings very much grew from adults you get groups not seeded ridge properties we think off now things I knew pretty things are not these are I mean lots of pains it's based because also meant to sound like a dog cages you know when you talk about nineteen ninety six after member that will be but since G. save Georgia people didn't have an email or by about that's true so when talking about how people networks it wasn't doing things that what we're doing now it wasn't great and what's not its stock from that network is a machine that is about the monthly meetings and pups the stock physical thing was the only real at the lychee hops get they haven't used to bring that equipment that welcome all right disposed to cross the web connection right it was very different well yeah you know to the house you know how's it look downsides because again it was I don't know I don't know really what's complete crap to contents networks difficult extends to students about the good for the people there and that is all kinds of ways you should exclude people not deliberately and consciously and not something you just need to keep looking out windows meetings become people came to the book once a week in the evening we have the high room well either we sat down beside stone decisions you know I mean when the hands up in the attic not %HESITATION is a hell of a lot of it is also a lot of sort of mythology around offices let's stop being Democratico collective you know I mean it's it's fine in some instances in other instances not the story of Bangor went boy will this intricate details of it I have the space to do for five years before we had the gallery about you having to go we call be making these decisions with their thirty white folks every time at some point if it's to progress beyond we came from his reaction to the not being any opportunity we created opportunities eight people called greatest opportunity but then actually you get to another level where do you go next actually to go somewhere next so more great it has to be in charge yeah all we stay right where it was a big debate I mean I haven't really talked about yet in an ice my set up when the national lottery started in the early nineties the funding they also not there's a year or something up until the year two thousand you took out of the office so those year architectures year it shouldn't see the different city or region in nineteen ninety six the north east of England and Cumbria at the so the last official gonna celebrations it's not a lot of big name artists logic or shoot it and you should construct some which I was also as it neared Pontificio program also there's lots of different stuff now based off the nice guy second because it actually grew out of the discussions officer having in ninety six and how bout they all she wants to do something but there's some there's also done something in ninety six is sort of cringe cylinder refuse I against that of what was happening in ninety six or just not really against what was very nice it just actually please look at this as well yeah name is actually always step in that was kind of bit ram truck will start with always walls about looking at longer term you do still strikes away saying let's build something that kind of exist whatever reason it was kind of funding legislation so mice the the wall so I did it on the band's eggs and breakfast was still doing it says very nice and very nice it rain or something two thousand it's a long story short kind of went from fifty artistic not seven largest banks yeah I was do you guys think about my time goes two thousand fifteen eighty exhibitions in two months and two hundred office largest antique shops should taking over not consult with one of the cycles of generation your customers lost and shops you know it's it grew into this monster almost well yes very good a real kind of another thing that people don't notice much now well because this generation and I'm looking I'm just looking archive there was actually told that about well it's got so successful back to commerce you can keep doing this we could do it every year Lasker citizen participation actually while he was going to do it we went to me we were either not working on the doll all working part time things not not mean anything it reached a point of stopping also I was you know going from my background and yeah I think it served its purpose yes Sir %HESITATION that thing was well actually what is going to come next and not short came most species selected working with the people on the network I was talking about earlier longshots lessons of Morris you should come on things not to be confused with selected shows shows I am in the early two thousands before we actually extends side noodles into the face crying because when they're selected actually lost in the same office we can expect it each time I say much less at the gallery just be done with this kind of tending am to shops in Tempe spaces online %HESITATION undo that extends but hope to have that space for a few years without such what best served in Europe but also not you what brings in the beginning it's really time possibly months with the people that's going to do that sort of stuff I'm not and I'm no way I'm very proud of what we did what she traded in those first few years the improper hot and you have got some people don't understand the impact it's actually I don't what's existence right such they encourage it some of the benefits what we know what we did was our claims knows original set before we did it by looking at examples what people to not sweat landfall not so I'm not you know just what I learned is being not to speak out shows between graduation before I became involved in organizing your life took those lessons and kind of find them seeing here is not the case is now in the northeast for the gun not training with the difficulty thinking invented the whole thing didn't well technically technology to do it you know they're the people that we met that will when talking about profit jumps and tricks you know great yeah I mean one thing that express scripts not Shaq United's shipbreaking minds to stick it out on the axis yeah it's easy to scrub his business sort of upwards trajectory not does not and it is absolutely amazing deed going from there's different faces another follower type yes we didn't do anything we're we're still working on stuff like I say people upset you can refresh and like that he does now that incident it's absent blues again I guess that's the thing with the loss of mythology around artists that still musters Randy's teaches about almost missed out will always wells lots of mythology it's always not project returns says don't really like to talk about I see that setbacks but things that we didn't follow through and things like that you know %HESITATION school was closed after recess just reassess what you're doing I mean one of the things we've never we've never wanted to be an out of which about with never being done didn't driven it that way so that's what we exhibit this talking possible avoiding being this institution you see it's the same people chasing the money as well I serviced and constantly just servicing Hyundai you see see off to see %HESITATION graduations ceasing to be what we started out the baby coming basically it is a service organization are you paying prices price but you don't know just how we can help you help your help on this front background overruled as much money yeah I mean that should be anymore but you know you just won't get to if you don't actually played smoke or we should it's %HESITATION the expectation more exhausted you don't stay with an organization dress that's gonna bounce an idea not defined as not just practice hello this is that because of the months I just love yes my name you know people I know people and the people that were there that he does things up other went off it was either you know they don't exceed state notwithstanding all could be directs this institution what's happened in public doesn't interest me inside the possibility that he twice as much as I do now miton trust me but you know how isn't good enough to want to make me go out and do that now you know and it's not because it's easy to stay where we are sitting not to use it because you know it was a huge amount of responsibility what we do on the very front child and I guess basically between bit fragile moment special counsel businesses across all the members are just going through such a terrible couple of years and well without wanting to dominate conversation instead of talk about I'm going to one of the things is that you might not think it to look after this good job good I'm glad to send you sound that actually you know dog we're very on child yeah it's kind of the thing you know when you're talking to clubs and things this is not the initiative on Cecil to institutional site that we have it's questioned all the time but one thing is like you're not actually come this terrible terrible things happen to the world of Luscombe yes actually my stupid that pretty quickly binding and does not without help from the people in the singing of the action without massive training measures to many things I mean I'm also not sustainable because actually yes because it's so flexible about saying what we we have gone through changes manage those changes as an organization I would say pretty well yes I'm showing accountability and then always I mean some of those changes it's about history changed from non venue based more value based way of a missile is being suspect is said to think well also conditions all the organization you know it's always been a mixture of choosing what we think is best what you what we think is best artistically mixed with some you know there's some properties and about you know where we are what we can do what we do have to because you have to base that recycles yes never not trust fund kids don't have that privilege use where it is very popular today about what we do you know I mean so some of those research taken hostage and forced by external circumstances again I'll see the last couple of years it's been the biggest of external circumstance content it myself which is also the kind of I'm not going to have to move my venue which was always going top wondering about two years guaranteed I mean I'm hoping that for decades it wasn't the best times of my speaker I'm not it was coming up more expensive and when you get you paid a big shots more than your open you realize how much you're paying service subspace so how do we scale down a bit of a base constitutes and size yeah that's practical side of it we need to actually see the town's got a bit because you know we've we as in the country of the world is never really recovered from top out of financial crash is now in years ago next month that we still stand still since then the amount of data was being brought up as a result of pandemic is scary the one that we repaid within our lifetimes there's not much there the magic from the guys coming and getting this moment it intends responding to the future we have to sort of take a mixed use of the choice again choice on external circumstances you know comes out today guessing the small manageable it's only been I am impressed on the see more of the last two years how much we need to survive on what we've got and make it more manageable size %HESITATION dot will give all minds for the new space is going to be still begin the spicy hot well the last month is now off their space needs to engage in the process of hiring yeah I've missed twice as big as the gallery Hans Hans two thousand five to two thousand eleven ways king's behind central station Newcastle where the new times degree in in that you know so much bigger and cheaper this thing about this new space this streamlining is aware that the fact that we won't be we're not servicing this building again it kind of opens up a whole new range of opportunities and an interesting right somebody's going back to the early days of greatness well so we could be more more reactive to taking up the empty spaces again during cop shows you know with it correctly now we just call it pop up shows come the pre gallery days we have a long list a different kind of flexibility because it's it it's opening up different kinds of changes working artists as well as your reservation but also we can re examine it can look at the changing role of the calories in the colors she teams up with the changing role within the community of artists and that we have talked about what becoming even more advantages knocks that sense of the that would not just this I could tell that one very much talk to these picket communities as these holdings connected communities beyond the is where the autistic community as well yeah research the choices of things that we were considering anyway more recent events jolted us into rethinking things I mean I've gone on about how we know institution we were becoming there's danger lastly you blink and sometimes watch some of the things you say enough to do happened you know nothing else is anything but then when in the midst of the lockdown balls going into work I'm looking at these big speech was not big by some people's standards we are quite big M. two gallery spaces and %HESITATION we couldn't do anything and that the relocation came into being on such as the logic let's not try to replicate this space also point to make it really is like this is always a sort of like questioning be pressuring yourself from yourself yes actually well next need to replicate what we did before not she does not use babies it's a chance to such decent difference not something not swapped again not entirely unique but also do brunch revise history but also resisting up thing about CBOE you've done this what she needs to do the same again make it bigger so who better to change I'm not really convinced on which the change that has been in the world I mean call me cynical but see this kind of idea of incremental growth and everything is not slay is actually incompatible the idea of staying ability with the talking the most obvious environmental what's up the hostages some might there's always something I know jump high jump high jump high and it's just not in terms of what resources it's conceiving whether it's actually your emotional resources you know chance yet you got out you know whether she's a physical results intense just like what we're doing to the comments section not just looking about what you what you want from life from night watch what's next thing to do because that's what we're going through this really quick for me is the world's first commercial accounts from feedback has been the subject of the processing the life work balance you know what we what we are what we're not going to be one to what we want the organization to be as well as changed all my thinking anyway you have to think about what you will say in the time this last not sounds great mobile it you have been there read read sensitive medical you know well you can think about you being back in about twenty five years cannot well it's not possible to cut its but yeah my doctor five more years left on this S. walk right well to do and I'm not gonna be retiring in and this is kind of what we'll do what you want in the next ten years twenty years I thought well is actually not not site already excluded myself from going off to another job they're also gonna say smaller than anyone thank you let me push it to mount you're welcome think about this now broadcast notes the name they say they're getting in the core of the yeah every and you know so what you what do you want people that we kind of like things also it's not really quite cheap site we with the solution something called the dressing what we sought to be see if problem is minor means a case I think now that everything's fine let's not talk about I'm done talking about what exists now I mean I still think there's still room for a different kind of voice yeah I could expand on that by really reluctant to talk about she said pointing fingers under what they got wrong well I mean it's just that that's just different kinds of challenges now this always comes the challenges with that twenty five years ago maybe not there anymore these different kinds of challenges that this still extricate to const if you like well that might just be different ones the ones they were attacked and you know people welcomes quite things that wasn't there long because you know people see what about getting that you call this success nine I will success is always kind of wired the expenses someone else because all admitted resources to go around we have some parts of those resources not so much of the people that you know I knew some of this was a basket with people saying what I could do that without such results the challenge to Wilson sorry are we doing that it's not the best because again not right but sort of talk that gets right it does yes Sir everyone I'm not seasons yeah on the night doing best the best best it's the best you end up talking to the press release talk you know and I don't think that's useful I think actually in a condo this is the best is actually in the basket I mean I hate among white I hate not compressed to sides of things yeah it's naive to think that would knock knock competing you pine for funding you're competing someone gets it someone doesn't and it's not simplest best person walks in memory is just not true of life and again asked me piss me off the record hello Mister people think holes in accurate honest people that think you know a more deserving I spent lots of time helping you know again it's not public this is what we spend a lot time hoping to strike operations not just officers showed great we can do about that put all your money on that number eight sometimes these things I mean you have to you have to be above the center level yes it's not just like a random but you know is that about on that we get it will help what level of blow up doll on stays is just just trying to be aware that the actually does a different way of doing things to the way you did them in a couple years ago it's not just occasioned by massive global brands like pandemics also actually down to more mundane things in fact the same exactly I think requirements establishment right I got trouble thought you too would not apply in certain areas in the northeast because I'm too outspoken about certain things that she does not apply to it once the decision making problems something more reaction to revise and I'm gonna leave it at that asking this is let's not look at it on Monday night but you know it's kinda well watching around my own %HESITATION without similar same not without some respects we wouldn't you know we are not council yeah but this is not a validating you know as a validation engineer from eagle point you wouldn't happen if people didn't look at the work that was produced in sight well some of the least is good how big he supposes farms our office is without box thanks doctor you never know resources other than energy energy of office hell's artist will douse it took out and it's still %HESITATION is heavy dependence on artists in the sense that spec also you work with it's not that co productions you know what side of the sensations when the creatures and the co productions but without so much about the actual web just happens when the people are just turning up and doing work without dots then we wouldn't have a reputation which is positive reputation all side but not the big public gallery it's not a bad not for all of the old uses me looking at that you know how we do stuff to do things in a very public in the early days you know them about small space is not marketing manager notification officer in back to times we do have groups of people coming through one thing positive things not reinstate said as we look at our next concert of expending Selectric March community and council as receptive to that sort of way this will be hot that's going to actually allow to meet people but yeah I mean also so awesome main audience good things are happening come to blows through artists yet wanting to but with this other than not sometimes we do I don't just mean not that people may not someone going away yeah look right I think that's the real dedication for us is that we help stocks reputations are understood to be honest it's an international reputation because of the profit is not without honor I mean we do house relatively large international reputation I mean this website just because they do cover the areas so time given I mean when we cited well they were just entering a new phase now I think I'm most obvious and when we sit around at the gallery phase if you live in two thousand five the full box yeah we invited artists to work with this and so there's also still working with this seventeen years later and so the office will also work with any projects and got some relationships going back twenty years mall synopsis other office near completion you gotta keep open so what we did approach this is a small cohort of international artists when we open the gallery let me pop up program also going on doing stuff outside of the gallery I mean this is also do not bend to thousand six of media outlets out there remains a not for profit organizations mean com make money I mean money up thank I. straight into I mean it's basically self what comes in goes out so who is taking off as people call had rounds of being not for profit levels and metrics commercial point is connection arms and money to run their organization was not strong but many still somewhere send me physically been doing much of the last two years and since then we have been doing online still working if you price and ropes across the square you know what you actually sign anything on dolls I mean it's good so the promotion for them and because it also houses well just because the office is quite expensive thing to do this is an international activity has created other kinds of opportunities for artists okay not just for artists that we've shown specific opportunities beyond even next to the chick in career change opportunity since it and that's a great thing for us to see happening I mean we're looking a little bit I mean happened tools reading much about because of twenty five years this option G. license it's not just on the best between starting imminently Ole miss out to John Ritter will stop people tend to generate we've been doing the pandemic against Jaitley said of like unity trolls are similar archive six days a year in more recent stuff picking stuff out making sure things are archived as can be on a website we can be doing stupid stuff on you know social media things are not looking at all the stories to try and save some of what we've been talking about will be expanded upon in nice and there's also a story %HESITATION everything that was in the past okay your short videos major processors and things I'm not certain that this man can be I'm gonna brought a hundred fifty or even not near to impossible the region daisy Boston shows the public we have been busy yeah understood nice is the recent official %HESITATION so too and what written document talking may sound a bit driver Transamerica it's not just the string is actually the history is very person nothing to to die they just need to find a man going about his office like well is this well not trying to draw that sounds it's not just not okay here's our archive is nice pictures exhibition did seventeen years ago it's M. O. Y. what was that if they were from outside Newcastle what they find you guys trying to us normal will sit by the way here things are but this is still very relevant today in a may reactivate what contextualizing not externalizing it both the benefit locals orients and I'm hoping for the peak is about sex going about so I did not well thanks it was it's another gallery on the next prompt got as well this is our story yeah and I'm not make qualitative judgements but with the battle with brokers say west anyone and I'm trying to say that better than anyone actually it's a different story yeah hi Sir different story this is John transplants on the how to get it beyond %HESITATION here's a press release for a leg to show us your bill not so silent and drawer out things crossed by time out to get the actual birthday this not about some physical events and I discussed these are not less camels which come together to do that you can have the benefit seeing me in person rumble age or something like that stage should have built a stage I'm not just talking for months so she's context I think not I think it's still questions based on about the same way we could what we did send certain things in the day yes looking back is also complete contempt contacts because right right yeah me chomping stands together what we're talking about those debates have gone away when you start out you can just like pushing pushing pushing pushing towards his back to world what sense basically maybe over dramatic did you ever come well that moment did you know certain things about that certain things certain things we probably contributes to grazing actually negative things for us now yeah yeah maybe drops calling again back to the very beginning we know we dropped going south sauce that one point when we first got the offer of more regular funding well now it's got so it was said it was it was a negative yeah a line of be professional in which is really a whole lot problematic surround that this happened today you're not straight you know then it'll sauces that straight around the stock should actually what Sydney along Hyundai can just mean showing your banks on the other hand you know your institutional constituting so lost actually sort of are you really any like Sam not gonna stop by I mean another thing Appleton's Constanten international presence not in the office to better route to adopt is primarily not even about taking calls and not such good routes to get yourself somewhere five days and showcase not just where to lots of people since the show was I think I see smoke and in New York right right yes I call you like guys Jakub might remember everything the things that they're not you mean outside about in multiple places but the space is two blocks but again it's all help to make contacts learn about United what with in those yeah she may draw some blood loss senses yeah we went on smallest on the galleries all senses next year based things again also why this so if you want to call it a group that she's got something to make those connections then right posted at the office yeah that's maybe more motivating kind of things do you need special stuff not just make this connection is great if you can make some money as well not least just the cycle not also what happened when we moved into our now last time good good cop comic what he's calling it now that almost ten years to the day old several twenty eleven to mid September twenty twenty moment moved out mission house right in the centre Newcastle is big Stockard at the time but with various points at one point I'll see those two other buildings within the same block tops you bridge agrees graces insult not one point one is the H. three hundred phones and other %HESITATION charitable organizations and that means much total commitment about you know sort of being a one of the ways Gostkowski's relevance unix also means connecting different communities points you got you have is not building models it was actually sent to the actual mix was not she not supported financially by anyone individual things like going to school to those of the organizations both arts and non arts organizations received the different cuts funding actually what we had actually we were neighbors yes we went together Mr will witness and these people but you know good bit more contract I'm just giving up says knocking on someone's door guideline do you want to do this yeah but what we did so when we talk I'm not buildings got the most basic level is that Chris and I also two three directors well now you say police initially but then you know con came to the mall hands off there's still so it's some kind of to the directions to the building beyond the mundane things that make sure you'll find it shocking things that I will say to me not that guy right jumble combines because an organization of some inventions machine in house he said that our older screen six point out he's involved is now working Seinfeld you know we reset we re well at that setting the gallery up now every guy he says we've got mix instead of these toll building will have either a nine floors in matching that now go different smaller sites around case at town center but I'm still a base serving as part of that system the store once you get this moving into focus becomes spread horizontally rather than vertically now I just as importantly there's not enough space because it was sort of time to walk track did you know I mean %HESITATION this is sort of an umbrella organization some people gone their own ways how to you can wait we try to stay in the house which really wasn't happening you notice more sets and guys have let's say a relate actually help him out on the road from where we were yes but then actually in some ways very different contexts so I mean we'll see how that pans out and sensible different things that will be that I say certainly expensive also found that I mean we all of this %HESITATION directs locus working unpaid basis for not not going be says it cut somebody's neck collars that we do sauce fresh environment program we do do that with offices that and again not at the office of each of the gallery there's some junk out of whatever project is we do all that kind of stuff number involved in running studios often moved lobbies cut boring mundane steps taken a number of stations a local woman dance stuff that actually is his pasta this is why sports thing we don't make a big song and dance about that yeah you start making big sometimes not realize when we have to meet you thanks how to more safety nets but I realized that people will realize can you others people didn't ask people didn't know about what was happening there some people again time for more late night conversations some people chose big role what was happening no not really it's not my circus you're not really interested in supporting artists despite it may be being that Joan yeah is it late but you know so why don't you know it looks about white to coach in the northeastern United well why did all three sessions what you got yeah I think certain people are just happy that's just an example of something wrong naturally the college she all she talked to she wore different unstuck thanks not make sense so despite beating around the bush not saying right now they should be yeah I miss the all different year groups but the conditions they should be more lexicon of the should be ball galleries is that you say and then I got out so it's about money not my fault not that great I should take that much money to be where I am well we will address the reports for the speaker to be thought somewhere else but that wasn't really well I mean I'll come on my mobile this Nixon said that means you can think of the city council thank blindly tried their best opus I would say what and because it already has consented remembering what was happening anyway I think it's not priority you know in the end the dice there were people that were meant to be used the people that lost their businesses because without meaning I was an inclusion such sports as much money into that since his neck item also union number what's that well my experience I have no problem further we have to be docked up there seems always to Dale and it was gonna happen one that mean a lot longer than we thought we were going to ask you so you're going to gas comes not with that is the building unless it's not it's actually that's real doubles more group will be people in the city including thank among Miami does every workable remember that we're going to shut down we have a site that will not someone's gonna resign business vice city cheats you get this long time dream ball that because I really want to I'm not interested in playing the game really in some ways it was years ago now he's got to you know if you look at what my house I'm TV's back in again passes Susman thank god because people make so we're at war right I checked your site not right when they say the new shopping on saying this is going to bring you know access city or what this cultural organization going night we bring next mountains the city people make things up not just the truth of it having said that will explain how to nominate me we've had a million pounds okay one day a lot of time not every single counterparts been spent within Newcastle I mean I thank my god you know that things are not is it what hasn't been retained in unison now about S. baby yes I but I still live in the house I'm left the city in protest we went very supportive right now I read a kite but I mean over time yeah and those of the old timey I took was not moment it came up with the people there so yes some people stay some people gone I bristle when I see sort of talking accounts not supporting market based things I've done I think that's the case well it's not my experience controversial subjects on that okay wildly denied by anyone the council the signet segments to help try and help you but you just send down vital options anyway yeah I think people remember certain sayings and we know what happens whatever they say that it's all been incredibly insightful I feel very lucky because I feel like this is being the moments where you both needed to see Brady reflects and get stuff off your chest so even just a little bit even if you could say everything you wanted to say but you've been guard is really gone and said yeah yeah I just really appreciate that you intend on searches every question I think I had as well J. either he has maybe any messages of hope she have any hope for the future of the arts and this that there will be some you know because coming from northern art ends I feel the pain of the arts community and the space above very arm's reach as well and people just have to get on a day in themselves use about experience and since its full year you're the pandemic that's my exceptional new stuff that people been left with let's go to the wrangling is already that says black people have been left in limbo yeah this afternoon but before you actually got to under yeah that's right which I mean I think it's difficult I mean it's gonna get us now when J. C. digital because in one way that we all love to sell my resilient and will find the right route you know when I say you got cut down for a bit let down the line string again with people like still not how bout that you know I'm wary of using the wiper is an object yeah %HESITATION narrative because oxalate it's also I feel I don't once rushing courage discipline exactly it %HESITATION because it's like Hey you should or even hold the %HESITATION wins or not students anyway oxalates talking itself now getting near cards or if you should be getting under the hound I will survive I don't have an ounce of possible to think where we are at the moment we society are the main things really impossible nothing is a bit of a rush to go down since I really don't you know I don't think really quite comprehend what's happened in the last two years nothing mean about what we'll see is about things that when you think you can pay the rent on Alton but it's also you know now I don't have that much of spiritual side but I think we've been through massively traumatic experience is traumatic about how we actually go forward and signed its government's descent it says that it's not safe for us and you know it's still long so Tyler thing to always sort of been through set next and a certain part of rebuilding and maintained over the last couple years but also trying to do things differently you know nothing I've been doing a little reading around this you know I think when I look to the pandemic look you know at this locale there's a lot of fights that in people resume writing that was so grim in so many ways couple spots take now because this is kind of going on yeah it's a lot of initiative builds up angst and so too I'm good things I'm not sure I don't know that we get this done and I come across that very dark here there's still a lot of actions to be taken if you're not gonna come out this data we went to the dangerous actually west nothing missing nothing all governments almost sort of contempt near all actually doing the right thing what you think I think I'm not saying the same thing which was but you know it's kind of like well well that's just about to start the choices remains lots of directions being given I think it's still quite low choices to be made about what she already how differently do do things how much we support sticking prostrate that trying to scramble by the law the biggest challenge in essence second mobile radio thing to society it's not just about %HESITATION will start up again sorry contracts last two years this is a whole different way of doing it all right and all the other things that happened with highlighted the not just Hockney at last year's use sitting around the table new residents yeah I got the biggest it look bigger debate stopped out students up to where we might stand in not you know we might represent you should strive represent we've always looked at it we can look at it as well great transsexuals different kinds of questions about their representation taken place recently in Glasgow is our reach not intense yeah what's being raised about what we can do is to be but you know still having some I think we've always felt that responsibility that's required to be jacks reported snag with possible dressing problem not solving the problems I think is not spontaneous I really as a bit of pressure sometimes try to make out the city saying not overnight well do ABC that we've dealt with us again it's an ongoing thing it's not set it up to people I solve problems the world because I was but you know it's that sort of taking responsibility we have a responsibility to be part of the process the moving forward so it just means doing things differently our typical it also thinking on that if I'm sounding a bit sort of not really sitting right next to it because I'm not trying to preempt how about my S. it's up to still very much work in progress but cannot you regional question there's responsibility on the sole individually collectively organizing institutional about trying to make things work in a doctor's it's not a foregone conclusion that will blast will stopping around plus the city still sort of come out of this terrible thing that's happened I feel like each month and double I'm optimistic I'm optimistic things aka struggle sometimes I mean things he also struggled without those struggling all times you know I recently yes I do actually despite how might come across remains optimistic otherwise I would get up and do something else United naturally you know this aside from the obvious and less competition and how to fight very hard out sheets you keep going and I've been working on we have been working with people I say we've lost if you were a whole life yeah to the extortionate but we'll save actually helps the artists and non artists now actually keep that business is going during this time so we still kind of dealing with keeping Garrett but yeah you know being open we need to change still making advocating a space to doing things in a different way because there's plenty of people with the same person sent consultations and not necessarily I mean that's always that's always been the case in Walmart they sent things imposed on you you have a choice the space is going to making about how you were dressed not really about you can take the easy route you can take box just put your head down money get on with life or you can challenge things you know and if you don't sex you can challenge inspired by director John things Weidenbach said stuff but you know also you can US just challenging just by doing stuff in a certain way again I'm trying not so just let me jump in the second lead by example I was reading pompous gone say that but just do stuff do you step inside this is good the choice got some up now join you later interest in trying to affect change or whether it's just a formative going into the art world there's lots of people there really informative changing I'm very safety that I think there's a lot of lip service going on the slope to consume I think the real thing that just needs to see or is this just this integrity I think we've got hacked we've got another the most liberal what people do and it's just going to see that actually come into play evil keep reading taking taking control of their own lives to take control of the situation take control of the development of this whatever you call it this ought to come cheap taking control of what's happening in the real integrity that's what's needed and what's what's happening when it's been more of a personal as I said well actually it's a about a negative point here but we also see we've got government is actually interfering more more Anne is less and less arms length yeah and there's a good night I'm not saying I'm doing it you know because less and less dependence %HESITATION condemning hasn't Beijing not help without yeah seeing all this last of the incentives contract to challenge this sort of interference and again subsumed under whether it's the same much talking and acting free not specific so much intense manhunts lake during this time the Sims talk or what did you do especially in the first locked down you know what you've got to talk with you watching you know watching so what does that you know all these people his script rices or whether you're just looking at pictures on the wall yeah yeah yeah that's L. my skill I got soul mates beginning to sort of be it was second also at a loss in the beginning and I think you did you need to keep saying not right now but we've got government which is not something crossed you still saying all subjects and not to send you also has a great capacity and also organize actions of responsibility in fact social change but I it being fake social worker yeah Mr job someone else will work with people that know what they're doing and meaningful life licensing for white tank do you tend to like tickets going outside is not going to change this not missing the conscious thing common look outside yourself look outside your immediate mind set which is coming challenging but it's challenging especially challenging when we've all been on the defensive thank you to your heart's Bible but this still held that's even I still believe I still believe in our yeah some really important messages I think that we need to reinforce I can't thank you enough both of you for all your time today Chris kitschy point people to words where they can find out more by the end the websites and that kind of thing we we we have to go to our website U. K. you'll find all sorts of things were videos of shares as well as exchange that we commissioned on our site to some options we have social media you can see with the kids Facebook the old people like us but we do need to do our goal yes sign galleries and galleries actual social Instagram twitch time with the kids you know coming soon noun okay even after baby at non white noise well they can just wishing you every best wish for what's to come in the coming year I really hope I can get to get salads and a few months and be busy Instagram SS and I mess I really miss fan I miss commercial union high so I spent a lot of time in our past and I miss it desperately so I just ready I'm so appreciative of both he taking so much time to talk to me sure thank you very much thank you

Audiovisual Cultures episode 103 – Remembering Sally Madge automated transcript

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hello and welcome to the audio visual cultures the podcast that explores different areas of arts and culture I'm polo player and in this special episode I have the privilege of presenting memories of artists Ali match who we sadly lost in November twenty twenty Sally was a prolific practitioner educator and mentor across many approaches to making and parking he was embedded in the art world in the north of England as I mentioned later on Sally featured in episode forty off this podcast and that episode is linked in the show notes asses the repository of the oral remembrances from some of Sally's friends and colleagues that you're about to hear justice Ali presented a portrait of herself an aptitude for day we have attempted to produce an aural collage of our memories of Sally her transgressive nests her supportive encouraging way her mischievous presents her energy her intellect and what she has meant in our own lives and our ways of working the voice is Europe bites here in order of appearance R. Alexander Hughes and data alley co words Simon Murray Richard James whole Clara ward Adam Phillips and Joe way ties with Scott black satin Allana Mitchell myself polo player Sandra Johnston and finally a poetic prose reading from Michael Tucker my huge thanks to each contributor into Sally's partner Tom Jennings he is making tremendous efforts to ensure Sally's legacy and has been instrumental in the production of this episode's I would like to dedicate this episode to Tom as well as to Sally they were quite the team for those of you listening he knew Sally I hope the memories to fall hello will raise some smiles and for those of you who didn't know Sally I hope this provides some motivation to look at her work thanks for some of which are also in the show notes I will not hand over to Alex and data to lead us and remembering solid match sure wind wind swept hair only energy yes open invitation handles questions asked S. discoveries exploration discerning women's eyes that read me ask you what the trees warm can you cancel this zero tactile play fire she won a Latin she style style yes style easy equal in in a tent is free spirited not not very encouraging me to relax reassurance downed trees hi strong celebration and see and the kitchen table T. clay from the side weeping her have some high thinking busy talking to caring for rule breaker sure it's made me feel like I worry too much about doing the right thing and they are saying once the older you get the less you care to do more of what you want to have the same feeling all that the best thing you can do this let go okay well she said I just think inicia even simple sometimes it gets into trouble but you just have to say what you think there must be at the time where we technically broke into her old home this was one like remaining in the house of Commons yeah then forwarded across and we ponder over the fence and then we met at local kind of consulting totaling out this is John Choate yes I remember attending a story in our slightly saying she had every right to be students down lights and stuff typical solid she when I think of her as a sort of way in way of thinking about her is reminding me to not worry so much or two everything things but just to do what I feel I want to do which sometimes can be harder than it sounds to reading this into yourself and just do what you want without thinking about what does it mean are and will not be good enough just to throw that one out the window and just to do it anyway yeah I think this will be the strongest things on tape from nine Tony is to just try and it's my life the way I want to the way that feels right try to kind of not sweat the small stuff No Way Out in cat Simon Murray and I'm responding to the invitation from Tolman pulling to contribute to a short put costs to these various commemorations system he would really remembrances of Sally I was so delighted to do this it's take me a hell of a long time to think how what I would say and how much I would do it and even now I've just written a few notes and I hope this won't be too incoherent hope there will be two restructurings my wife went to cook up who knew Sally as well as I did %HESITATION will be contributing to the stop and shop event that you and your team %HESITATION so would be contributing to this particular little put cost a new study socially Newcastle ferries mutual friends and apos crossed in those ways but we also taught together at the university of Sunderland between two thousand and two thousand four and bonded around that experience it wasn't a dreadful experience for me but I never felt fully %HESITATION so signed up to the most of a conventional practices that were being taught on that program and I think somebody was the same I came from a sociological cultural studies and theater background and Sally from the visual arts but we met in the engage through performance through experimental theater you know it's weird a merry out possibilities I left the northeast where I spent much of my adult life from being a student in two thousand fool to take up the job director theater Dartington college of arts and it wasn't until I moved to Dartington but I fully realize how much %HESITATION territories of interests overlapped and once again I kinda regretted not articulating that tool enjoying that overlap of interest when I actually worked with somebody at Sunderland what I particularly appreciated about Sally's work because it's playfulness making me every day the %HESITATION regarded in the ordinary extraordinary how lack of interest in the commodified world of contemporary %HESITATION lack of interest is a bit mild sometimes it verges on contempt I think the eclectic range of her practices how lack of worthiness preciousness note to standing the strong shed political commitment I'm not sure if somebody ever soaring counted Tydeus controls work cuticles known about Cantel but I sent strong connection filiation between them through found objects the every day through collage assemblers sure what come to all cooled on but I should through rubbish detritus through quick human under the ultimate political commitment a commitment to make the local the particular national and international and of course they both allowed myself came from a background in visual arts I checked out issues of my notes on cancel his work I teach at the university of Glasgow and %HESITATION the couple could someone to refer to here and in the book the righteous is running through controls into %HESITATION %HESITATION of Mrs fascination with what he cooled reality of a low order and council says hello world %HESITATION which continuously to months of examined and express issues through base materials the basis possible materials that up pool deprived of dignity and prestige defenseless and often downright contemptible I like that done right contemptible I do see connections here %HESITATION what I understand to be somebody's thought practice inside because I was away from Newcastle for the last seventeen years much of a more recent work I never really sold are encountered I think the last time I saw somebody was it a wonderful seventieth birthday party celebration in time not to the same club than that around that time we had some exchanges by email in the conversation about ruins and this was in relation to the book I was researching and writing which ultimately was published last year and it was cool performing ruins %HESITATION the connection particularly walls the shelter that she first directed on Linda's phone in two thousand and two and then it's regular ruination either through natural or human forces this fascinated me and Sally's retrospective designation of the whole story here %HESITATION the whole %HESITATION Shelton as a public artwork in this site specific installation tickled my imagination I so wish I'd written about this in the book I was going to and then for various reasons it didn't find its way into one of the chapters I regret battled there are so many conversations I wish I'd had with somebody I sometimes have them in my head indication he rehearsed them when I'm walking the dog I love to Spock a human the great in the oyster and a playful refusal to accept the boundaries of Alton performance practices disinterest in the labels of community also socially engaged practice if the word boundaries they were there to be gleefully transgressed and ignored I love that's appreciated that's about somebody in her life and in her work as one to finish with a couple more %HESITATION quotations from come to %HESITATION which somehow connect us in a very literal way but the connect with Sally and her death and what we all feel about that and these two quotes make me think of Sally and where she is now these are the little statements which came from performance work the tattoo had written and performed very close to his own death and I think he was aware of his impending death because he was in the well mine and at one point he says I'm on stage again I think I'll never fully and clearly explain this habit to you or to me actually it's not the stage but the border and in his final production much leverage tune which is in nineteen eighty eight he actually acted as well as being the student really quirky on the stage director orchestrating conducting his performance and this makes me think of Sally and where she might be in a kind of speaks his lines the motion of a return in a moment I went into shabby and disreputable pub I've been looking to it for a long time at nights sleepless I've been going to a meeting I don't know with whom either with phantoms or with people I think that's what I've got to say thanks very much I've seen Charlie about because I was friends with Carol Luby festival I thank the first time we got introduced properly and actually started talking was she was doing some artwork the legend Phil where she was gathering like the dust from the library itself and putting it into little bags and just discussing what will discuss reconstituted out well to be fragments of meteorite dust skin %HESITATION bats I could tell she was somebody who really fought about the history of things she put importance on stuff but she also understood that there was are you made to the mundanity aswell there was however in the things that people didn't often see and as the years went on I would see Sally here and there she was one of those sort of faces and people who you would want to gravitate to interest say hi and just check out the way I talk about what the hell is actually going on because I think men have had our soldiers suddenly respect about the factor of sometimes the occupants then we would go to west so by the Daddy one of the performances that are really remember head doing once the one where she would have little intro let and eight she was dressed in the usual sort of like black trousers black jumper but she also had like a white coach John and she would ask people who were wearing like Satan like knitted fabrics so whenever she would actually ask if she could grow the lint roller on and have it as actual sort of piece of evidence of what people carry with them day to day on the surface level goodness me it's so subtle and so minimal and yet it has so much impact on what it actually holds one of the times I did see it do this she was in like a more obscure and the Baltic baby nine near the stairway near where the restroom facilities was and I never saw or complain about anything like that I think she enjoyed the suppleness of fangs chest and tried to sell she enjoyed what she did but if she thought something was crap she would just say scrap and now the phones that I think I remember had doing it was a loner Simpson symposium about memory and I think they actually have videos of this on the Baltic website and she was exploring some that's the realist elements of performance and memory she was even discussing her interests and Freud and Freud museum and the objects stuck to it occupying the museum and how even subtle interventions could do so much to change the environment thanks Ali was like that she's known for a installation work she's known for her work as an educator and she's one of those artists who I think she should have been given more credence and anytime but she was happy actually being slightly in the background for people to discuss happenstance really turned a corner and suddenly you're you're encountering Saudi mileage piece of work and I know when I was helping her out with the school workshops and all that one of the first things I would remember that waiting for a full open is sitting in a kitchen actually looking at like an hour's PCA bad clock just being intrigued by it and we which said that this kitchen table and just try to win the Cup of tea and then get ready for to go out Sally was the type of person who if you knew somebody somebody probably knew Sally I've got a good friend of mine who had hair as a teacher and she said she was one of those teachers who has told you to keep going because she recommends that you have the talent as well as just being this inspirational artists who I really at my end and also being my friend I think she took turns with some of us being mental I think that was part of a gift in a way once the sense of she can see potential promise in people she tried to hold it out ever so gently just to like make you see that you're not chest what you think your limits are I miss Sally really do and I think Newcastle will be lacking from absence but on the other hand I'm hoping that her legacy crew out the people in this city and the region and beyond will extend fairgrounds hello I'm class I guess some of multi media artist nowadays living in what way but I lived in new castle and focus on live up to a long time a new satellite for about eighteen years when I matter I just started on the MA in fine out at Sunderland unix and because I was interested in live up they went for her to be my personal check to even though she was actually teaching on the performing arts degree course not the MA I have a very clear memory of the first second I saw her striding through the doors to the studios towards me with that mischievous Clinton ally and a handout stretched saying you must be class and I instantly thought it's not a version of me but then I also got to know her I got to know she was only someone you could double this by it to be like she had so much energy most alive I think sometimes when you meet someone you can recognize something in them before you even know them that might be very similar to something in yourself I think myself and suddenly had very similar ways of thinking about things in life and each approach our own work processing ideas in a very similar mama even if the results came out very differently %HESITATION member conversations with both was going and I don't have a cat I was shocked by anything we see in the art world easily we once went see cirque de soleil together in new castle stadium there was a lot of anticipation as the tickets were expensive so we saved and then went it was great it was everything you'd think it would but it was sent to somebody what what was funny was with both sides and while we did notice what was going on on the stage of course but we were both a lot more interested in how they convict the lighting or how that does not affect built that sent except we were both a lot more interested in what was going on offstage well the known and sat discussing it all the way through the show I think Sally probably had a bigger influence on my creative life than I will ever really be aware of and I don't think she'll ever ready stop influencing me I was in a particularly tricky situation but the gallery recently when I found myself thinking what sunny side which help me respond in Amman %HESITATION I ended up feeling quite proud of the last time I saw her sometime in December two thousand and nineteen I was over in new castle for a few days so as usual we have to catch up session in the kitchen and went downstairs to his studio and she wanted to show me what should be market now which was complex it was always fascinating going inside the studio as there was all sorts of stuff everywhere and so many ideas hello she's the only person I've known that it was normal for her to always have a freezer full of dead birds and actually I've been collecting on the multi for her no never have identified what kind of animal that from being funding through the lock down to a low marks in the written about now well I live but when she explained what she be making the frogs from scraps of fabric that had washed up on the beach and thinking about the process of making the money what that involved exactly it just made my head explode I've been interested in recycling and my own work a long time but when she told me about what she's been doing a lot she's just taken it to a whole other level completely I was and still am and all of the whole idea and I couldn't have asked for a better shooter on the imac she was always there whenever I needed to talk to my work or life I didn't find out for you yes until it came out accidentally in conversation with her one day that she had she took me for the entire idea of the cost and has spent time for free I think that alone shows how much of a special person she was I don't always felt a content coming up for the and when I asked why she just said she was interested in what I was doing because it was a lot closer to home work and ending on the performing arts degree I used to get questions Aussies hope on the degree cost sitting in with the students and I think she probably got the most performances out of many that I've ever done in those classes the program modeled on the make some anonymous Sir my name's Adam Phillips I work with IBM foundation at university of Sunderland can start in two thousand and nine and then I think something else was a document some performances and from that point it quite a lot of collaboration with Sally specially around some of the Linda's found shelter things two thousand twelve thirteen fourteen maybe yes I am I am thanks I'm trying to remember the year I mean so they both work together but it would be a couple of years before all the mom foundation I guess I went in there to teach initially then I became the course leader and Sally joined us which is amazing it worked out really well for a very good times Sally had obviously worked at Sunderland full sometime before the US cannot shift I think she might have retired the full I think she joined the foundation in the performing arts degree with a performing on us until in two different molecules and and toward the foundation prior to that as well so I'm used to ceramics at some point as well I think so she told CNN influence at all of different courses and was ready at apple and I guess to a certain extent this is why she was such an awesome foundation you know bit of assists hello more parallelism of reasons that machine physical Wilson said the course was a very good match for her as well yeah when I started it was I suppose I just do my P. G. C. so that's when I first met Sally it was is a doing teacher training and already know what you're doing but it was really nice to have a range of different people the festivities but yeah Sally was very helpful and encouraging the students listened Colin she spoke it seemed from my first teacher training so new pass and when I remember how to on an isolated as well she was just quiet in the room with why she settles things yes very nice use she wore a thirty very lightly and %HESITATION I guess it was naturally born from a lot of experience and she was an amazing teacher as well that was the thing she could do research on a little bit because we were thinking about some of the projects you've been involved in that her ability to switch take on different roles is as you push students when needed %HESITATION Sydney be hugely empathetic when needed as well and %HESITATION who also talks a little bit to make in your world at different stages of %HESITATION teaching halls practices and all of that and %HESITATION and the nice thing about the study which was hugely respectful open to new ideas looked out to conversation you know the conversations in the stockroom how we develop projects together and reflected on what we've done we do an awful lot of team teaching at the time and you're right you'd sit down with Sally and a student I never listen to Saudi and you could almost there's a nice dialogue wasn't enough rain what you couldn't often the conversation between the staff and the students would hopefully you get swept along with one of the other or both of us but it was a really nice way to show students that we weren't really that vehicle is still not as you know this of course where you know so I'll wear hold a highway it's the if there's lots of different approaches you can take the best thing is to have a discussion about those and see which one excites and motivates and connects and Sonny was obviously huge asset as an office bringing the restless kind of imagination and multi disciplinary approaches in a real interesting different things as well I think you know so one thing props I learned whole attempted to take on board from site was just being interested the people are doing and creating a listing in the participate true nature of that yeah I think I remember initial team teaching tutorials that it was just very clear that she was reading skills as a communicator and she would take up time with them and I was in I think maybe slight difference now it was maybe more time to allow this now and focus on it was really good it kind of allowing space and supporting students and it was amazing sometimes to watch how much she might get out of school students in a way that I feel that sometimes I I definitely learned from that kind of takes your time and trying to find out more about the students engage with it personal circumstance of it more and I think she was that personal circumstance the empathy empathy isn't just for you and kind of really getting to the net it's you know for what is stopping people from moving forward you know and kind of reading for pay I remember being quite honest I remember yes I'm missing down one student he was clearly quite annoyed it sort of having that Utah Royals something wasn't right and I just remember I mean I was very new to the considered quite a step up from the side of god I'm sensing that something between us that you're not happy about it she rejection on history diffuse the situation through directly addressing and I think that's something that I lost teachers are great tap directly inside yeah she was reading town today a lot of times just die rechte articulate but empathetic communication yeah it would often %HESITATION confrontational and kind of in a way in a very human and I'm surprised I think that perhaps not true on the foundations we kind of end up working with some students more than others but certain ones that got to it was solid they were really invested in their own way can the critical thing with foundation every critical thing on the grease while taking on foundation you coming from school and there's a lot of expectation when you come say I feel right she kind of coming into the studio environment we're trying to encourage and open students up to experimentation but obviously that's an intimidating quite fearful thing for a lot of students this old history Cummings from school with those organizations and particularly young people at a critical stage in their development she was very finding out all seeing where you know we didn't have a problem with discussing and identifying with some of those innovations and oxide ease and I've definitely learned a lot from nothing that how important nowadays to understand anagram taken into the conversation topics students she was very very good with young people shot a very hands on different stages as well we have very mature students at this time as well to me it was fun wasn't it I think Jesse ministry a sense of fun and mischief to the place in a way that led to some really interesting she didn't work and yeah it was almost like we want to address those things so you can enjoy that's what we all want answers yeah it does sound like it's very it is difficult you know essentially she was definitely going to make it enjoyable naturally there was certainly more performance of Michael Mostyn performance work and things that was kind of being mental by Sally as well then there is actually see on the foundation today outside I think we simply influence the way we think around teaching and those sorts of roles and teaching and learning rate but like the kind of different roles people assume that it was more explicit the address when we developed a project with Saudi around these interests remember we called the project came about project full foundation students which a cross disciplinary bat game plan the project was really about he seemed to try different things for different subject areas it was really around basic strategies that you establish an office of designer in the studio to explore and to extend IT so it might be anything from seventy seven few rules around the number two is he gonna do any particular day to setting itself will performative strategies to see where they might lead incidents of fiscal outcomes that you my guess is a lot different always research course you thinking things like performance sausage grease nominal also strategies reflect society so many people in a lot of things that Sally was really really important to he doesn't practice you know so we've developed projects around the house and Senate to initiate every project we did a series of workshops which scraps you can say more about the secrets he thought Saddam all what you want cited pages as a team we designed a series of sort of Hoff day gains and the students went from space to space and what for the different member of staff and we'll kind of roughly I think mine was like a puzzle game using audio visual so projectors and computers and word puzzles and that and then it was a dressing up game Jim Boyles was just come in and we would be looking at the there was a bit of a myth around Saudis with but neither of us had she sort it this is actually what happened in this room we will see a teaching people coming out of the room which is also coming out of the room traumatized by we know that well in a positive way it said she was a came to our place for my understanding and solving sort of essentially brought the students into the room and try to see how far they could be pushed before that the pushback let's all push back in other ways understanding of it was that she had some sort of official overcoat a lab coat on maybe the clipboard I'm the reason the structure's not efficient so appearance I know this because I've also had Sonny take similar strategies it's definitely something I'm familiar with this well I know she's done this on the always teacher course where where at this kind of taking on that role so his instructions to the students I think might install it relatively mild but they would be in the position that they're in and knocked all follow out some of these incidents are related to follow until they were beginning to question the validity or lack of a sense of what it would be nice to do away with my ladies or even that pops the tire rack so wait son he was a young man to do it or dressing them it should be very strict you know since he had a meeting and should also take things quite far I think she was reading coaching students exactly %HESITATION you know to question authority question the rules are being questioned a brief question what could be passed to do I think it was a seems activities %HESITATION goals which were you know in my own way supposed to make them think about game play and we write down that that might include the roles within society %HESITATION day power play that goes on more broadly holds the power yeah it was really invented in way of encouraging kind of reflection and those kind of strategy is well we just looked at them with from gameplay I you say those sheets which I hugely invested in the work as a result but also the amount of students performance finalists graphic design is even change the show PO's of that you know will crosses was that with the kind of rights head in a business suit wasn't here kind of yeah really interesting out soon really really interesting pieces of work as a result of that kind of abuse of a lot to this kind of thinking and the strategies that some of the workshops that I use I also did the slide shows that project is when it is nothing said he brought a lot to say so fluxes Newman and remember I mean not the establishment to a case where the stands out for me studies work around the flux a show at the old Vic on the one hand you go taking on the role of this authoritative role within a teaching context and I remember taking students down to the flux and there was a lot of obscene musicological displays of fluxes wicks and Sally and been given license by the Baltics sale last final take to develop performance pieces around a sequence when in the evening then you get to this particular case remember Sally had a %HESITATION cleaning trolley the laptop again on the lock up again yeah but more like a cleaning it like seems kind of almost %HESITATION some of the visit is that she was completely invisible and for the students to go and see this show and he needs to come out the peripheral vision of a cleaner instead the like performance pieces might have been involved in my memory polishing the cases for a particular period of time all over again cordoning off areas so that the people who visit the show could only say he said it sounds all Roderick viciously so you called government yeah so this kind of power does what she was doing it in the studio and teaching is a nice photo I think of %HESITATION combat his work which fluxes X. it is but it's got a very large sort of projected bottom within the social realizing that and that's just so silent so projection bottom so quite profusely for context and time yeah I mean choked up the crooks and full of the second since the way that dialogue between yourself as an artist and a teacher thanks and the dialogue between the teacher and a student in there hello so roles and I think that was something we all took a great deal from wasn't ready with sap and all like a studio for staff alongside the students something's working that was the staff wherein you know things like hitting the press and that kind of proximity of your whip to students something to something and the importance of thought it was something that I'm very easy to say within somebody's practice each didn't differentiate too much between those things and kind of reading courage those crossing visit did you have a T. R. rated like that will ceramics workshop she used to do as well when it is essential to building utopia so it just was real nice one because I think ceramics often has this focus upon making a profit or a phone yeah I'm kind of how to do that and the technical prowess of throwing in things about India and she kind of turned on its head and put the material as a way of sort of explore and really quite magical the large interesting ideas in the students first take the wet clay and stop building a building or a home or a house or pests in our character and then he saw giant MCAT style to unfold from F. at the end and not truly a debate and in the end of the Cold goes in the bin rather than gets fired I expect for ceramics project I do news Sally's teaching history a tool but these childlike play and in a way no activities where he put his size critical judgment and you're not really you know nothing on foundation those kind of and for all this is well I mean it's a really important thing to do isn't it quite often when you want to stop stop and Sonny was a meticulous selects around assist you know the millions he made Whistler thoughtful and carefully constructed at that workshop almost seems like off which is going to check in at the end yeah so much by protecting so much other stuff comes out of some of those approaches that was being explored and yet the students again the student voice yes I'm providing coverage to the point where they just actually having a howling stable is the real life I mean Sally being that well my time with my son and his time on the foundation that I know about which between the basement aspen house which you may have join us for some of us no no crack we moved over it's a very soon to you %HESITATION and St Mary's which subsequently became known set of token now is it an office building but it was fantastic it's time because we had this kind of independence from a wider institution building to house it I might have to members who had already retired and gelled so well because she had this great sense of phone with all these it is me in the middle and you imagine for teacher training that was a real if we look back it's quite nice are you excited because it's a real light yeah you want to see that kind of exchange and people questioning things at different points you shouldn't take things too seriously publishers of jury so invest in the teaching %HESITATION yeah so you should not invest it the complete opposite really invested but not down with institutional things I think foundation great a great space well I feel you know it was a really enjoyable period for an existing McLaws drawing to a close with staffing changes she ended up no longer working with us which is a real a real shame and how many years should come back out but they were amazing we were reminiscing about trip to Barcelona trips %HESITATION lively times anyway but there's not one way but those complaints from hotel managers about noise and realized it was actually a family and I are calling Hillary was from a member of the knights %HESITATION about nights out it was definitely the strips all those memories that you go back to restructure the finding they're used to and I %HESITATION she's powered balsa loner I'm a whale of a time is because you know since the phone that Saudi role and also see since the investment and things something with Grady call off from hi my name's Ruth Scott blacks and irons I am recording this from Philadelphia in the USA that's how they get day goes by that I don't think about Sally match Sadia factions have a my work is profound would be an understatement I first met Sally aspen house the art studios at Sunderland university back in two thousand four I was studying for my MA in fine arts and she was teaching on the performing arts program by our practice was heading towards performance and video so the heads of fine arts suggested I talk with her I knew from my very first chats with Sally that she was spelling with ideas thoughts opinions and talking to her so I right now I felt more like five minutes she was a generous with her time and thoughts and also I was able to push me too hard places in my off park this while still having that campaigns and gentle touch it was hugely supportive coming from a fairly traditional sculpture degree I didn't really know a lot about performance the talking of Sally okay so I'm going to walk to be possible to me she had a nice fear courage to art and life and in some ways that rubbed off on me I start cameras to my body great people hold signs during performances kept pushing the Saudis guidance horrified that was contagious follow good night following the sense to ask a question okay talk through an idea %HESITATION just for a chat about anything really she got me out of my comfort sign I remember it was the end of the MA program she gave me some literature that was predominately terrorism related and one quite stands out but I continue to think about even useful installation I created twenty fifteen eastern state penitentiary in Philadelphia where I now live there was no trace without resistance and no action on the surface without paying for my piece at eastern state penitentiary I title that no trace without resistance this was a work where I gold leaf the walls of a south check peeling paints all throughout the penitentiary that was peeling paint but there was one specific style that I wanted to work on I was thinking was what happens if we keep scratching underneath the surface it can be very ugly but if we go a little further often something magical and beautiful can be discovered hello this is Sally yesterday actually I was doing a photo shoot having my photo taken for projects about listening that my husband is working on while pacing for the fact that I was asked think back to a train with someone really listen to you instantly I was transported back to Sally's kitchen table often she sat and listened she was a good talking to she was an amazing Wisma skillet embodies the heart and soul of a person every time I go so hard decision or challenge in my life I think to myself what would Sally do and it really is a compass in the weeks and months after her death our family would see traces of her all around background and we live in Philadelphia as I mentioned last night that she gave Bob and I my husband's as at present when we first moved in together and actually now sets and the basement winds are of my art studio a China plate that she gave me that I often eat from also a penguin puppets she secretly gifted mine now five year old daughter Betsy on our last visit with Sally almost two years ago we called the penguin style one moment I got married almost ten years ago we ask guests about wanting to make it costs each year are the best in the open the costs this past year we opened Saudis how apps it was a beautiful crown and a pair of cool paper wedding glasses spectacles one of my fondest memories from that day and watching Sally dance she was really broken up the dance floor it was amazing to see when I think back again to talking at the kitchen table I think if that happens actually one of the first things my husband robin I talked about following her passing these amazing hands that made lots of lessons in bodies everything that the Sally she was always brimming with ideas in some ways I was envious that she had so many ideas it was really hard to keep track of everything that she was working on was just some inspiring has lived in Philadelphia now for the past ten years and just before moving here I embarked on a project when asked friends to write memory that was dear to them I actually recently came across south Miami it's written on some lined paper in her handwriting so I'm gonna just read outs as a child not sure how old I am playing doctors and nurses given my dolls injections holding my mother's darning needle isolated gas waiting until it is red hot the Catholic pushing it into the dolls up arm I feel a great sense of satisfaction is the hot needle slides effortlessly through the plastic and I'm with Joe leaves a small black and whole following this operation I apply sticking plaster stolen from the bathroom medicine cabinets I finish the procedure by talking up my doll comforting her and walking out to sleep I feel very grown up and the fashions this style has many holes in her arms so many games doctors and nurses Sally S. on the third of may two thousand and eleven and as I mentioned it's hand writing sorry it's a very precious piece of paper to me you know I don't really need to say anymore about that it's got Sally but no life for us and we can see from a young age that inquisitiveness and intense curiosity more recently I've actually picked up this project again I've really been thinking about at a loss how about memory and see how we can preserve memory and I thought a backseat is five ask you many questions about life but also had many questions about that it's very age appropriate but some of these conversations really take my breath away she describes dying as being in the start it's such a vessel and match but it's really hard to race out from one's mind and I think Sally would have loved us enough to think about how shall the project since the star and sent the lands and all the elements that go with that it really felt necessary to start this project up again how we take our memories with us to the star and with this project I'm really attempting to preserve some of these nominees you know when I have ideas like this I truly miss being able to talk Sally an email telling him my plans have encouragement support always whispering in my ear from a fall maybe not that far away the garden arms %HESITATION was looking down on me from the basement window the last time I saw Sally was over two years ago I was visiting the U. K. that's how my brother's wedding as always I drop by to see Sally and she's made myself my two young daughters and siliceous watch Betsy had just turned three and how he was only four months old Sally may have dared Phyllis folksy and to my surprise my daughter with me at the time slapped up every last drop she was sorry guys with my girls and I'm just I'm sorry happy in sales that she got to meet them and they got to meet her I don't think I ever told Sally how how much of an influence she had on me in my work and I definitely didn't tell her how much she meant to me as a friends which makes me sad but when I'm saying this I also if he had a little boy from my hands that tells me that she now and then instantly and transport it back to her kitchen had devilish laugh I'm not twinkle in high I'm alignment to and I'm an artist and a person who makes all things happen with other people and I've been doing that anyhow so for twenty years also so I've lived in the castle since ninety eight so I went to the casino did my degree graduates in two thousand two never left the telephone payment and I first knew Sonny reasonably soon after I graduated there was a platform for live %HESITATION that was a regional platform that she was one of the people he was the group is set up and I was in the first one and then to come running it after that and she was one of the people on the steering grade so I've known her since then it is definitely one of the things I've literally like the most green recent blood literally left you need the year before and took on this thing because I was like yeah I'll do it not knowing what I was doing and it was such an amazing team of people who just really support that I was like yeah get a minute I mean like with totally with me it was a no huge learning space but I never felt with her %HESITATION or with any of them like I was some kind of genius I always felt like an equal which was just amazing to be like a glitch that just left me we don't don't know each other but %HESITATION just into art and have enthusiasm for this thing I know that full on Apollo assistant incredible and so generous and so I will say my double she was called willow and in the pace of Sallie Mae she was anonymous I think yes it does say that in the article artist in this age of jumble the goddess has the pack remains nameless because it does not belong to match but it is staying at home to create this must please enter it just find it really funny that this idea that my job was anonymized because that might give away too much personal information somehow if the job has been named in the guardian that someone might be able to track us down doubles two things all the time because they have teeth that never stop growing said they need to constantly two two I used to give her the inside of the toilet roll into the conflict chiefs and she would cut them and it was really cute I spent Ricky because she would sort of do it side to side and then the pieces that were left away for like little smile shape shoot me because she wasn't eating them just and then they would suit to does that become a bit sort of nest material type thing so they M. that does the animals they really shouldn't they should live in a tank to a cage though I didn't personally know the of the time and she was in a cage and %HESITATION save temples you should really have them pass minimal social who is felt that side for one she was left on her right in that case we'll see she came out of the cage as well but still I'm really not sure how the conversation came around that simply making this connection of like me to look into this but but it definitely was I think we must've been talking about it at some point and I'm not sure which came first I don't think she was sitting around waiting for someone to have a job I think that something of the conversations perhaps that we were having about I didn't maybe she might have someone else you have to jump in and just so happened that she needs the I did but let that kind of thing about how they keep touring and all of that sort of thing and like just must have been some thing of conversation somewhere along the line I quite like the call of this and this is me making up and that's how I feel about it but it's not like I'm not sure what they remember but there is some element of it that was we will have been talking at some point I'm not even talking about having a javelin some think about that which is nothing to do without nothing and then this idea came out of that and that's really nice well it's nice to think about how it happened say the book it was very specific book that Sally Chinese that was cool the new illustrated universal reference book of nineteen thirty three willow the Jebel spend these few weeks just with that as the thing that she chewed up and she checked that it was okay but it wasn't poisonous Alaska to think it was a very different way to poke the paper for you in the paper and then she's always made other things from the newspaper center that does some of the the exists in her work it was common expression it wake good this this thing at the beginning about how it was going to be in the gallery it's quite a few years ago two thousand five yes it was going to be that well I was gonna live in the gallery and obviously someone would come in every day made sure she was okay and take them out plates that were actually gonna make me just as much as anybody else because again we found the right for me it wasn't unkind and it didn't feel like in many ways knowing what space was like at the time you filled out different opinion my house something still in a cage still no I definitely didn't feel terrible but we preemptively on the gallery preemptively spoke to the RSPCA about whether it would be cruel to Dana and they advise the company would pay and is one of those things is probably like somebody would have sent it so cool they've got a job %HESITATION being doing art no just being enjoyable I don't think it's ridiculous to get them in cages so even though I and %HESITATION I had was just a funny and funny situation but anyway the RSPCA sent yeah probably down to about seven steps Ali had her at her house so she lived with Holly for those few weeks of the exhibition and they did a %HESITATION I presume it was a live stream which sounds like something a sense like so simple but in in two thousand five split little little bit more complex assembly at the X. files episodes streamed into the galleries the gallery had a video of the job of making this nest yeah and it made the guardian it wasn't front page news but it was in the paper a definite in the paper what it says is a quote from I'm just reading from the article that said the seventy two year old books and the book is an old book original editor posted to the booking neighbors the reader to have a mine of information at their fingertips the jobless mining sections from the encyclopedia to make its nest I'm sure celibacy issue we took more eloquently about that book and everything to do with it I don't know very much off of my head about the new illustrated universal reference book from nineteen thirty three but it sounds fascinating I'm sure it is useful for universal references it's quite amazing book general knowledge gazetteer sports cookery pets handyman and much more what that means I'm just reading from what trump described us on a secondhand bookshop it's funny like it's one of these works that I don't feel necessarily that like not that anyone needs to be an authority on it but what I remember about it is to do with my job rather than to deal with all of the reasons which I should know about it this isn't quite a long time ago now and think about it we live and how tough it out immediately for very long say it makes sense that it wasn't much later that day you know the facts thing she didn't live much longer so it's this funny way of being connected through friendship and conversation and then they said to memories and Glendon people things and everyone helping each other out which is just such a lovely way and I think things work in new castle a lot and I think a lot of the best things in the best bits of the art world on how things happened three conversations and friendships and and that sort of evolution and in a solid someone who was completely at the heart of the fun and made my entry into that world Mary Smith and felt like an equal and like jewelry for sharing of ideas and thoughts and Pat and whatever else you have to make things and I think that's what's so great about our city and our community I remember having this conversation with her about her thinking about making new work and she hadn't made work for really long time and then there was this she had this drive to make new work which from about the sort of time and I feel like because I was doing this platform which was about young around this and kind of we were having this conversation about with that anyone can be making me work it wasn't just about being young in age it was just about coming back to a newly making new kinds of work doing performance which I think you really haven't been doing and not to when we were talking about this I think yes it was a sort of interesting time may be a bit different to sort of things you've been doing more recently that may be a more fresh because I'm talk about conversations that I'm like that like bits of conversation that remember but it is really nice moments of her talking about doing activism and how that was like performance in the coming together of these things and she decide to do and think that she was thinking about doing and some of that being a confidence to do that and the shift of %HESITATION I could do that was a really interesting bit of time to stay like I was developing whatever I was doing at same time but it felt really nice which Sally was really supportive of I was part of like a creepy but those definitely answer mutuality and I kind of have in seeing new work being made in supporting students through when she was working at Sunderland and she invited me to do teaching with some of the mental I've still had doing that and sort of hat inspiring younger people whether students alike may email of the people we were working with and then also saying that that was something she could do and finding new ways of making what that was really exciting to see and be part of a kind of connect to them I moved from Belfast to Newcastle in August twenty fourteen and Sandra Sandra Johnson was going to be away a lot of that month's during performances here there and everywhere you know and I didn't know anybody else here and so she paid me any email contacts to Sally because Sally was planning on offense that sounds great yeah I'd be really interested in and it was a site specific screening of cul de sac right at Lindisfarne holy islands the film and it's being made in that location and getting together and watching it and not location and being able to see I think it was mark today of the shelter was there at the time so I saw the second version of the shelter it was weird because I got thrown into this bunch of people I had never met before and you know Sally had emails and such yeah come on we will have to route traffic tend to combine to number four and it was this bizarre experience fine you know good day and this person was inviting me into her home and she had a Cup of tea in the kitchen and I think that was Sally's method of seduction perhaps getting in some not kitchen Republicans say sat there for back how to chop and then packed up the car and headed up there so %HESITATION can't remember will be talks if item is in the day is an avid years ago so I think we're just getting to know each other a little banks and have the most wonderful evening and I was very stressed and anxious because I didn't know anyone and I've never been there before and it was the darkest night ever seen because I'm a city slicker and there's no lights at all like there when it gets tough it was one of those for you you knew you were part of something special on the experiences always status may end and I had taken the photos as she J. and %HESITATION that Sally was quite keen to get copies of the photos so I put them on a CD four inches for came to have me come running to high C. K. N. I was working at Newcastle University so was on our doorstep had no excuse I was right across the road anyway so I had to go around for another couple today and discover the same day after the photos and stuff yeah we just kept in touch and over that year because I was contracted at Newcastle for eleven months sundered party organized to drafting event at north Cumbria and Baltic thirty nine and that was very solid deadline scope where she was dropping us all with the roller had she just chatted away and she was collecting your stories as well as each physical traces of your shop selling is a collector of sayings as well and she was collecting us you know six who referring us up keeping a sperm deadlock haven M. U. R. Dustin are traces of ourselves and those for Colton conversations that were not recorded in anyway it was just it was part of the performance as part of thought life active collecting this physical traces she was also collecting just getting to know yelping collecting your stories you know that summer holiday of all the stuff they put an emphasis trees system keep in tough Jana sticky paper entries using French chalk I think a dusting of French chalk to connect to Salem often make sure they didn't pick up anything else so it was an act of preservation and sounds strangely fascinating the subtle colors in the palette Cindy's beautiful abstract works of art that came out of that was great so you know those are your is to provide thanks in the first year that mean you Sally and then and then I had to move away for different job so I didn't see her really a toll for about year and a half and then when I moved back to Newcastle I wasn't very well for a while but then we started to see each other regularly and twenty nineteen we probably had seen each other since but she organized a nice dinner for Saunders fiftieth birthday in December twenty eighteen and Cisco this that'll kind of S. two gas there I never understood desk side so I sound like she's the real deal why she won't dina but with me for that she was she was interested she took an interest in people and you know it was in her suggestion that we spend more time together and then track twenty nineteen we did spend quite a lot of time together and I felt very close to sublease rate that year and that was when I was quite early and twenty nineteen then when I was brave enough to ask her but she takes some time for my podcast I'd love to interview you for my podcast and two might upset the lights not only did she consent to that but she said could I do something different could I maybe just reflects on my whole career and she wrote this beautiful reflective fast safe that she ratites then we have chats and so that was fishy the facts that I just remember the experience again we recorded it in the kitchen the number four I just remember that trying because failing of setting their cold I had to stay this monitor the recording make sure she was fine reassure her a lot because she wasn't confident about it and she didn't like what she's written and sometimes things are going it's beautiful it's most beautiful thing I've ever heard you know what she thought what she thought in our mind is not going to be changed and all of that but it is it's a really gorgeous essay and really informative and our conversation after it jury a lot more items that you know we really got into a lot of the same sex marriage in her work you we talked a lot about follies things having the folly and she told me but was she containing it by collecting for years and years and years old it's a fabric that had washed off you're on the shores all right the silence it's my great provisionally to the finish off some of that work because there was a lot of it she was actively working on when she died and quite a lot of things that were almost finished but not quite and I put the responsibility but just a great joy to just finish them off don't know if that's what's all you would have to miss them I see it as a collaboration my family that I never got to have when she was alive I think she had a real defines impact on me because as I was recovering from illness and transitioning really from being at quite a theoretical academic C. embracing a more creative approach chasing king and dating things and making things and tapping into that part of me where I was always making stuff as a child and I'm so when targets and then I just went on a more academic Passeridae as a teenager and I think Sally ready problem although that I just me again so it's really nice and to be able to see that for a little bit and just assisting her with some of her pieces so I'm Sandra Johnson I'm an artist a new Sally trouble each year's earns became part of the community the pharmacists %HESITATION in new castle realizing pretty quickly her insurance I was an amazing person that she was but yeah we connected through ought to create specific that says true performance art and questioning the sinking around the purpose of everything I did was Sally was %HESITATION was upon opening the door and trying to generate trying to create opportunities for others no matter how modest you sing yourself as part of the scene sings self as part of a collective body of people like you know you can work to each other's detriment to you come up to each other's gross I hope that we showed that this idea of if you can open something for somebody else on the way better better rather than this is my projects and space limitations of photons this is the she and this is the product it was very much about how does this exponents landscape has expanded its history and how does it expand into the present moment to fix social space a lot of our friendship was about sourcing and really working through the materiality also Jackson's substances and she came back from a strained out was fast and it was %HESITATION Kerr and she actually purified and mine's a bike for the focus for me but she finds in landscape which is perfect is this perfect gift she handed me like an envelope I bought a small shovel full of yellow ochre from the Cumbrian landscape and those interesting things like me often poker from Australia and also because I don't go in the art shop probably produced in France and then she handed me because she saw seem when she was walking through the landscape she was always find a lifeguard skills animal skeletons but also she made necklaces out of Robert down to middle sorts things out of storage and the side that she spotted a seam of yellow ochre in the middle of a coastal landscaping overseas to produce Ali to mine and to bring it back and that's we talked a lot about that particular thing and it is and how is an artist your Honda materials with the you're converting them into something else as a sculpture process as an artist to conversations with Sally were so rich because we had a ripple effect except for hours about distinctions between things in space in a way what makes something art or not art causes us to that line between our life that we are both interested in I wasn't just to emphasize a an artist in north Easton somebody having a strong social identity but also very strong feminist identity a lot of our conversations would be about what is to be a woman making performance and what it is to be putting a body in front of an audience and the phone bills to sign for legacy that should be %HESITATION underestimate is how churches please she felt about this woman and to it yourself awards and to be seen and to be seen doing things that are will show signs of chords and progressive for absurd too shiny so that was tremendous humor in the work which is very very difficult to do the four months since it's very difficult to make genuinely humorous work I think some of the %HESITATION got away with it because it was never cheap there's always something very mysterious but the way that she would turn the tables on things into the audience we should keep moving perceptions of what was happening she wrote quote hopefully change the momentum or changed you know change the pace of the estrogen are suggested to her she used language she used in a way the lecture format so she's one of those performers where the use of the speech and use of text was really really critically important and I think it was an expansion of her teaching and her sense of paying to go to get motivated to that when she was performing she was also informing in a way also cruising productive misinformation that she would see performance as a platform to play with ideas and play with people's prejudices or substances I very much like the way she used physicality and really precise sections but put in conjunction with writing the way that she delivered to Texas where she spoke when she was reading a text that she'd written was formality but then she would drift into informality and shop with the audience knows what steered by the city's sneeze shifts in mood and how she would work through a body of material which is also something that we have in common it's not overly choreographed how to work with a number of things and put them into motion some of Tennessee and the chaos of science you know how long you can keep each one of those ideas into this physical ideas how long you keep them alive for and what happens when they collide and what happens when %HESITATION the diminishing you have to leave them behind she was a very very strong link between the performer and Sally the researcher and academic and desire to inspire people through ideas and that was it within that was a very strong feminist agenda that I really really admire to what was Carl and the way that they pose seemingly carelessness and honestly you know they were so %HESITATION so funny and a reference you know when you're in the company whether they were performing or not it was just like so within that this woman had such passion such meticulous on it in a call so well but a sincerity and associated with the oxytocin forming on snow working with difficult ideas was so you know so much there and everything that she did it there was a kitchen composition or performance or teaching and also the way that she was with children the way that she brought here what I mean by reference to said childishness but not in the way of course I childish which are a hundred the noxious horrible message in art it was somebody's genuinely working with the spirits of innocence and invention and this is simply for the poor the way that she would put things in motion I'm not really sure which way they would come together I think that excitement was really tangible a new watch tower known to a lot of potential I think that's what I meant about the innocence that she has enough issues and some playfulness we don't know what the test is going to achieve but you throw yourself into it one hundred percent then there is the accidents that is the beautiful thing so I think we're both cell and I was fascinated with was hard to keep our spontaneous and system and if you don't keep this level of spontaneity within it that it loses some of its life I think she was interested in was the spark you know talking with her and this was a problem solver and having a creative relationship with her I know that she did this for many many many people this is the thing that's coming so he was a mentor and a huge creative support inspiration for so many people because she was well capable of putting the elbow and north giving you the extra so knowledge of like why are you holding back why don't you do it you know why don't you just do that I do not support a sick idea what's holding you back make a phone call and I think there's a lot of people like us to consider their just for things to happen I see many artists are rates of some of the people making good art you know this is sort of jealousy around but what I loved about Sally was so close that can never be enough good art is not possible so why wouldn't you engage in some humble way with seven markers ought Sally much there she is a tiny figure in the distance sprouting along the touchline vanishing into the mist soon she will appear again at the top of the deeds of sliding down with an armful of collected material scraps shreds will down the wind dried leaves be treacle feathers clusters of dried blood arek canvas strips carton of cuts ripped and crinkled staying with oily smears right plastic Schantz rusty orange imprints on bits of tarpaulin congealed pitch loosely strips of red brick docks lives of ply so the misshapen cobbled worn down fragments of glass beautifully bent sticks reach wrapped in bundles with found brunt cold fluorescent fibers knitted into extraordinary spatial drawings sometimes she would trudge torches at others she would hurry a small front steps in the sand the fading trailed behind to a trace of her urgency etched into the land she is the figure in the landscape we note her comprehensive movement about the beach down to the edge of the sea and back up over the change with people without people people moving towards our people moving away from her or part of her performance of exploring finding and making of interpreting the broad sandy spaces adjacent to the North Sea she celebrated core of old road lugged up from the sea and they're in the genes come across an elegant loop of insulated wire perhaps just an inch long Sally ever the whole card collector alert to every creative possibility researching stimuli for the future creative actions and just alive to the delight of finding she would have a soul collecting wood for the fire and we will return to some previously agreed income until they are well done perhaps she would have already %HESITATION arise blowing into our hands ready to ignite some cross some tended to get a place going on a winter's often in the mist hanging over the sea darkness descending sparks flying in the air would smoke trailing away into invisibility children like Amy and Lucy delighted at the venture Sally would crunch over in her fur coat and there would be food all of us sitting and watching and laughing and talking and eventually we would all go home the better for it each of us with our own digital collections in emulation of her enthusiasms days later things would appear joined up constructions in the yard tiny arrangements on shelves fact collages in books hanging sent to gather the precipitation consciousness that is scattered in the toddler articulated in combines enclosures in thought in Oct other fragments peeled off the world scraped off the beach natural the toddler and buried in the sand rescued from the fire blown by the wind clutch under her arm squeezed into her pockets bundled up with strange and in the pages of sickening workbooks these found poems of fragments unexpected combinations books like sheaves feathers rags hanging out of the binding the book of the found materials between the pages are holding firm for experience this was Saturday the spontaneous wrestler's performance artist being closely observed in her practice Sally as a teacher introducing us to techniques of alfresco making engaging with the land finding and openness about material of freedom to make using anything to hand collaborating to find meanings and expression surprising alliances and alignments juxtapositions and overlaps generating metaphor and narrative Sally a tide line in your studio offering findings making urgent revelations look what I found indexical gestures look at what is possible fairies who from the sea all this from where we have worked where we have been taken hearing the wave sweeping over the sand seeing the shag flying low over the cold we'll see and it is %HESITATION spreading outwards through you flooding through your house the precious unforgettable Fulson Thomas's crescent and on and on through those of us you brought within your compass a maker a teacher of a former a divisor of activities happenings and events constructing landmarks out in the North Sea borders asserting the principles of land out engaging opening watching us encouraging us children converged on her ready to receive her praise and common tree for their own making back in the kitchen around the table celebrating with conviviality the error of the North Sea in the malls in the rivers with a glass of wine shared food inclusive talking no one outside everyone gathered together around Sally around her table around her mind around her making building in her passions an inspiration to all of us a polymath the mental and artist Sally manage rivers imagine a moderate offshore breeze when the tide begins to wane with the lapping of tiny waves blown back against the grain battles in the sun crackle as they shift this way and that while you stroll along the shoreline with Sally chewing the North Sea fast

Audiovisual Cultures – A Little Bit of Good special automated transcript

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hello and welcome to this special co-production between audio visual cultures and monkfish productions i’m your host paula blair and i’m delighted to be joined by claire murphy morgan from monkfish hello claire hello hi paul it’s lovely to be here great to have you and kelly coats from the youth and community charity projects for change hello kelly hello paula great to have you as well kelly the mission at monkfish is to nurture artists through creative interventions in new and unusual spaces they work through the arts to collaborate with a wide range of communities and to support individuals to unlock their creative potential you can see more at projects for change addresses the needs voices and rights of young people working in partnership with others to create youth work projects that help young people develop and flourish into adulthood you can find more at and both of those web addresses will be in the show notes wherever you’re accessing this recording we will hear more from kelly and about the collaboration between projects for change and monkfish shortly for now i’ll hand over to claire who’s going to tell us about monkfish’s current project a little bit of good in the world i am yes thank you very much so a little bit of good in the world is a project that asks us all how can creativity help us to do a little bit of good with what we have where we are and and it’s very much an arts and culture focused project because mungfish productions is an arts organization and it came out of um holocaust memorial day 2020 because one of the things that monkfish was kind of grappling with and we’re still grappling with is that at the moment in the world we’re currently living in a lot of people feel incredibly powerless and they feel that there’s not a lot that they can do but we were really inspired and by and the kind of the stories of of holocaust survivors and of the whole theme of holocaust memorial day 2020 which is standing together and it is very much about a a project that supports people to look at how we can stand together to support each other to make the world a better place for everybody and just by doing your small little good bit of good whether that’s you know saying good morning to your neighbor whether it’s doing something for a friend whether it’s just being kind to a stranger those little tiny bits of good add up into a big good and we felt that as monkfish we wanted to do something really creative around that so we worked with newcastle city councils holocaust memorial day program and the arts team at newcastle city council to facilitate a workshop about a little bit of good in the world and it was a theater drama based workshop which supported a lot of participants to explore what doing a little bit of good meant for them and it was it was an absolutely fascinating workshop pre-culvert 19 i have to say so the world is a very very different place to what it was on the 27th of january which is of course holocaust memorial day and so we were able to kind of get some ideas from that group and we were delighted to be able to work alongside projects for change because there was a project related to holocaust memorial day or connected to it called 75 memorial flames which marked the 75th anniversary of the liberation of ausfitch berka now and it was asking community groups from across the uk to make their own memorial flame which could be included or uh featured in a national uh commemoration exhibition at the holocaust memorial national ceremony and so we were delighted to go down to london with some of the wonderful young people with projects for change and with the arts team at newcastle city council and and the project’s kind of grown and developed um since then and we’re working really closely with projects for change on the next sort of exciting little bit of good in the world journey and so that’s something that we’re really excited about so going forward we’re trying to sort of get a sense of what a little bit of good in the world means as a bigger project and it’s a new project it’s growing all the time but it’s emerging um in a really exciting phase at the moment and monkfish has come up with sort of four the four c’s if you like of a little bit of good in the world and i’d like to to share with you now what those four c’s are which kind of has come out of our work with projects for change and also the workshop that we ran on as as part of holocaust memorial day on the 27th of january um so i’ve got by magic a little power point here which i’d just like to to share with you all the main kind of focus of a little bit of good in the world the kind of the main sort of uh talisman if you like is this quote from the marvelous desmond tutu who um for those of you who may not know who desmond tutu is he’s a leading light in the campaign against apartheid in south africa and uh was archbishop in south africa for a long time and he um is very inspirational very committed to social justice and we felt uh that this quote just summed up beautifully what we wanted to do uh do your little bit of good where you are it’s those little bits of good put together that overwhelmed the world and that kind of set us on the journey for a little bit of good in the world so the four c’s of a little bit of good in the world creativity obviously monkfish is an arts organization it’s what we do and we are really committed to how creativity and the arts can be a focus for doing good with where we are and and with what we’ve got and how kind of creativity can develop um a really exciting set of opportunities for people to work together but also how being creative and how taking part in arts and culture can’t help people to express how they’re feeling and to um share that really how to to kind of express and share that with with the world and we work in a variety of different arts contacts so this picture is from late shows in newcastle which is a free open to all uh cultural activity that happens every year and this was our music residency and it just allowed people to come through the door be creative make sound together and through make and sound create an interesting space so creativity can be at the heart of what we do and be at the heart of

communities the next c is connection so the other sort of aspect and focus of a little bit of good in the world is looking at how those creative bits of good connect with each other for lasting positive impact and how can artistic or create a creative activity help us to make those connections happen and we’re really delighted to be for example working with arts and projects around the city including projects for change which obviously we’ll talk a little bit about later on the third c is critical thinking and we think that this is really important part of a little bit of good in the world about how creativity and connecting with each other can help us to challenge bigotry polarization discrimination isolation misinformation there’s a lot of conspiracy theories flying around the internet at the moment for example how can being create us help us to ask some really interesting critical questions and support people to perhaps in interpret information or misinformation that’s put in front of them that keeps them apart from others and our final c is citizenship so if you’re thinking about creativity connecting with others developing your own critical thinking it allows us to be active citizens and thinking about our place in the world and how we can work together to affect that positive change for each other and how arts and creativity and culture can really sort of help us to do that so those are the kind of aspects that we think could support people to be active citizens and creativity and arts can absolutely be at the heart of that so going forward those are the kind of the things that we thought could really underpin a little bit of good in the world so it’s going to develop as a as a longer term project that monkfish will be sorting and facilitating and and co-leading with other arts and community organizations and with artists as well

thanks so much claire a little bit about a little bit of good in the world excellent thank you so much claire kelly can i bring you and i to tell us um a bit more about projects for change and uh to um maybe talk about the current project that you’re working on with monkfish as well okay thanks paula um well projects for change has been going um just two years now we’ve been running projects for a year and a half even though it feels like much longer um and projects of change came about really um due to a decline in youth provision nationally due to austerity um and we have this idea that you know every young person should be able to access youth provision on their doorstep you know they shouldn’t have to um step on a bus they shouldn’t have to go elsewhere it should be there and freely available um and since we got up and running with our first ever project which is called the changemaker volunteer project um a year and a half ago um it’s been absolutely non-stop and we’ve had lots of opportunities to really work quite closely with lots of different people um and working with the monkfish um arts has been wonderful our young people get a lot from working um around the arts um because they get to be engaged in questions you know questions that people don’t often ask them um and you get their unique perspective and that’s what working with claire kind of gives these young people a voice um and so the young many of the young people have met claire before during the 75 flames project and but now she’s come back and she’s that familiar face so the young people already know her they’ve spent some time with us some of them quite a lot of time when they visited london um but here she is and she’s asking the young people these these questions about their lives you know how’s lockdown been for you and how has it impacted you how has it changed your community um i mean two of our young people um from our polish have polish descent and so there’s a there’s a there’s you know there’s lots of different perspectives there you know one of our young people’s very who’s involved is very arty and she sees the world through that kind of lens um and they’re coming up with this amazing stuff and they’re all having very different experiences of lockdown and they’re coming up with this alternative view which isn’t a mainstream view it isn’t the view that’s pumped out through the media or any other place really it’s unique to them and i think that’s what’s really special about it that you know young people don’t often get asked those really important questions about um what is what does doing good mean to you um you know how has the current climate of what’s going on how has that affected your life how can you make a difference within this context and it’s been you know it’s been really uplifting to have this project after lockdown and help young people to um process processing come to terms with everything that’s gone on it’s been a real it’s been a real pleasure thank you so much kelly that’s brilliant that’s really encouraging to hear would either of you like to elaborate on anything because we’ve had some really lovely examples there of the music and the 75 flames do you have any other examples or things that you see that you that the two initiatives will come together to do in the future shall i talk a little bit callie about the res arts residency that’s literally about to come up any day now shall i talk about that um so we are literally in the very final few days of their of um of doing a call out for an artist in residence a visual artist to come and work with the young people and up at projects for change in the outer west of newcastle um which is a group two groups of young people have been meeting in a in a kind of a detached youth work setting in new bigon hall and also in calgary and um as kelly was saying i’ve visited with my monkfish hat on gone and visited the young people to talk about what’s really important to them and what kind of key issues and topics are really important to them as young people so for example nature reclaiming spaces and self-care friendship and connecting there’s a number of different um areas of life that are just so important to them so we i’ve done a call out and for visual artists an open call out for visual artists to come and and put forward some proposals for how they might work with uh the projects for change team of young people to make new visual art space work in response to the the brief that the young people have put forward which covered a lot of those themes and so the deadline for that is actually next week and we’re looking forward to seeing what artists out there have by the way of ideas which we can put in front of young people and and see what they would be potentially interested in working on as as a program of activity so and again it’s on the theme of doing good of of what it means to do good and and and also about supporting those young people as cali was touching on as active citizens as young people as people who really care about their local community so that’s kind of the next phase of of this project and and we’re hoping that it will be a long term um opportunity for us to do more exciting work with projects for change and in partnership and it’s been a huge privilege from my point of view to work with cali and the young people because i just think they’re amazing and i’m really looking forward to seeing what this artistic residency is going to bring

great thanks claire and kelly uh because you’re working directly with the young people and the communities involved are you finding at the moment that the activities might be helping even beyond the surface they might actually be helping with well-being and and you further ramifications such as that yeah i think claire claire touched on the idea of connection which is really important and we’ve kept in touch with a lot of our young people online but there’s a set there’s a section of our young people who don’t communicate well online and some of them don’t have internet access or the technology to connect with other people like that and so meeting them out and detached youth wig has been the ideal opportunity to just check in with them and make sure that they’re all right um but i think it can’t be underestimated the effect that lockdown’s had on young people um especially where young people have had their education interrupted at really sort of pivotal times and so you’re talking people who are about to take their gcses people who are mid-floor about to do their a levels people about to go to university um and actually there’s been a lot of um there’s been a lot of mental health sort of issues a lot of staying in their room you know a lot looking at the same four walls being confused about what day it is kind of losing all of their routines um and also being confused about um the messages that have been put out there as well about you know what they’re supposed to be doing um and i think that it’s gonna take up it’s gonna take a lot of effort from people in you know all sections of society to try and young people through that um and that’s our next step really and um doing work with the arts is another way of helping young people so art is um understood by a lot of people as being very healing and we’ve we’ve recently done a a mural with them a very small group of young people and i think for them that really benefited them and getting involved with moonfish art it’s going to be something else that they can focus on they can pull their attention into they can they can off they can bring themselves and their ideas to it um they can have some positive outcomes for themselves that’ll raise their self-esteem because it’s very easy when you haven’t got a structure within your day to kind of slip slip back into a lot of um self self dislike um you know feeling low that’s very that’s ordinary you know that in these circumstances that’s kind of a normal reaction to you know being isolated and spending a lot of time alone maybe a lot of too much time online and all of those things so i think anything that we can do to work with the young people to try and coax them out of that um isolation to try and include them and get them connected with the community is absolutely 100 the way to go i would say

i think it’s about supporting young people to to to have their voices heard as well and about trying to find accessible and creative ways to do that as well um it’s just something that is just so important as citizens of now and and adults of the future

it’s really important i think to bring that access to the arts to them as well because especially as you were mentioning kelly with their school being interrupted you how many of them have art supplies in their homes and all sorts of things you know and to be able to to bring something to them and to build up trust and to let them experiment with things and try out what well you don’t necessarily have to be good at some things that’s another sense of the word good as well it’s you don’t have to be the best at it or brilliant at it but you can enjoy it enjoy it for the love of it and um being part of a community being part of a group of people doing lots of things and you’re contributing so um there’s a lot to be said about that too

yeah either of you have anything else you would like to add to that i think just watch this space for a little bit of good in the world and and if you want to find out more about the project you can visit the monkfish website and we also have a a little bit of good in the world facebook page as well and is there any uh social media uh sort of uh accounts kelly where we can find out about projects for change as well yeah of course you can follow us on instagram it’s projects for change underscore uk or you can go to our facebook page which is projects space for space change um and also on twitter it’s hashtag um at ppc underscore uk excellent excellent thank you um brilliant so if that’s everything then we’ll wrap up thank you so much for having us yes thank you thank you paula and audio visual cultures thank you very much uh thank you both very much for joining us uh so this has been a joint production from audio visual cultures and monkfish productions funded by arts council england with me paula blair claire murphy morgan and kelly coates do check out and to follow these fantastic initiatives and to see how you can get involved and what they’re up to be part of the conversation with av cultures pod on instagram and av cultures on facebook and twitter the music is common ground by airton used under creative commons 3.0 license thank you so much for joining us for this special collaborative co-production