Audiovisual Cultures Episode 118 – SEO Optimizers with Brandon Leibowitz

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Show notes

Paula Blair is joined by digital marketing professional Brandon Leibowitz to talk about the technologies, best practices, ethics and effects on culture of search engine optimization (SEO), social media marketing, and website ownership. In our conversation you’ll learn some quick tips for advancing up Google search results and lessons about who really owns and makes money from the data we share online. Do enjoy this conversation and share it with a friend!

Music: commonGround by airtone (c) copyright 2018 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Noncommercial (3.0) license.

Edited by Paula Blair with Audacity.

Recorded with Zencastr on 3 May 2022. Access Behind the Scenes recordings on Patreon.

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Check out Brandon’s podcast appearances

Brandon and Paula connected via Matchmaker

Automated Transcript

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greetings and salutations you’re very welcome to episode one hundred eighteen of audio visual cultures the podcast that explores different areas from the arts and media I am your host Poland planner and I am joined this time by a digital marketer Brandon labor what’s working I’d in sunny Los Angeles helping people get their businesses noticed by search engines and much more I thought it would be interesting to see talk to Brandon because he’s the sort of person who’s advice I’ve been taking for ways to more effectively circulated and promote this podcast is my other work this technological signees of these marketing activities and their ramifications on culture quite broadly scare and fascinate me whether you’re a business owner or a consumer this affects all of us on the internet so whether you’re interested or not I think it’s important C. get cleaned up and snow will retain when they post on social media and fellow HR data cells will hopefully get Brandon back again at some points because I for one need another dose of that California sunshine if not for anything else many thanks as well to those of you listening and reaching right best feedback especially Dr laurel J. carpenter he featured in episode sixty one that’s a really lovely upset if you haven’t heard it pleased to go and check out one night and laurel said hi Paul let loved your interview with tank it’s smart and funny and accessible ax ax and that was in response to episode one hundred fifteen with Richard James hall laurel that really means a lot because accessibility is what we’re all about here and if we can make out from T. ten older fatter not only on the show Brandon Lee blacks I am so delighted to have you on audio visual cultures thank you so much for reaching our age and for your time today I might correct if I say that you’re both lesser that you run a digital marketing firm called SCO optimizers yeah would you be happy C. tell us a bit about that company give a spend of over V. by your work there and your background into us all right then I started doing digital marketing in two thousand seven kind of just fell into it and got my degree in business marketing in the first job I got my need you at seo social media email marketing for them to have it all in fact and just realize that I see as we get free traffic can I spend money on ads if you get up there for free so just focus on that over the years I just had to get that free traffic from Google so you don’t have to spend money on ads and marketing for advertising agencies and if mom pop shops and fortune five hundred companies and everything in between helping them out with their SCO and right now my own company well that’s the optimizers help people specifically get free job from Google do a little bit of paid ads but for to get you that three topics you have to spend money on ads fantastic I suppose just for anybody blessing he he isn’t familiar with some of those terms can we just talk about what SCO means as CEO search engine optimization that means ranking websites on Google so whatever you see on Google that due to SCO what would you search on Google there’s ads at the top those are all paid ads that right below that those are the organic SCO the free listings and as he was about getting that free traffic from Google so Brandon I’ve been listening to quite a lot of your appearance says on on quite a few other podcasts and they’ve been just so useful and informative I mean for me as an independent podcaster he’s trying that market forecasts and do so on a are you too low or no budgets it’s been really wonderful actually to the discovery you and your generosity with reaching out to people I also don’t want to make you repeat too much of what you’ve been doing another podcast I think it be quite nice to share those other podcast because actually there have been many years so late and I started listening to the %HESITATION talk first chill Westbury convenience and tools of the podcast tree interests Jennifer Francis actually those I find your other episodes of those podcasts are actually very useful as well so I’d like to link to those and see if there’s anything you haven’t coverage on a lot of thought other work you’ve been saying that we could T. sites say what do you think if I thought that would be the best that much better because I like you need topic is that is after the same things about SCO or digital marketing anything that help your audience is definitely the best whatever works best resonate your audience I’m open to helping out as much as possible not surprised in Brandon I think to get you up to speed Dan not audio visual cultures were primarily on arts and culture podcasts and we do a lot of things like film analysis to re talk about aids art exhibitions where we talk to researchers and arts and humanities subjects and we’re quite wide ranging across what can be considered as audio visual cultures and I was quite keen to talk T. in terms of the cultural phenomenon that has become social media marketing and SCO and and all of these things all of these areas and I think my listeners are in our state people who are creative practitioners and their creative industries in some way the researchers of the same some hope and how all of this can learn from me not just hi I need to be better self marketers but also just to learn about what is the technologies behind all of this I mean maybe you don’t get and all of this but I’m curious about what impact there might be some %HESITATION socially and culture related not sort of thing are these areas that you ever get into the center of your clients or that you think about you know what is it apart all of space that you find interesting it’s definitely a step that they sought help it is interesting just trying to figure out Google and see what’s going on with Google and how they want to control and run everything but who knows what can happen in the future with them they’re gonna keeps dominating the market or is someone else can take over the matter is gonna take over that role just plugged in now this matters anymore but it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens in the future how this impacts everyone it’s making you just I mean just plugged in pretty much I actively avoid using Google I wonder if she ever have to deal with people like me who are trying to market themselves but they’re aware that people are trying to find alternatives that may be our last environmentally harmful or maybe last aspect to the compromise saying it’s not anything you cover as well and your work no there’s a kosher is that search engine where they plant a tree get thing for everyone that searches but if you look at how much traffic they get compared to Google it does even come close Google just bring then by twenty to eighty percent of traffic to a website being brings about one percent Yahoo will bring maybe one percent DuckDuckGo might bring half a percent because you might bring a quarter of a percent and then the threat to social media email marketing people this type in your website indirectly but you’re not on Google you’re not gonna get the visibility unless your audience is using a different search engine okay then you need to be on that search engine I think China’s on Yandex so they don’t really mean that kind of censored but it depends on who your audience is it’s on the different search and then you want to be there but the most part everyone’s on Google NASA accidentally using being it’s been kind of tricks people into taking over the browser no more than that we’re aware that that go privacy where they’re not tracking everything they say they’re not and then the closure where they’re coming out with the environment and try to get back but we’ll see if they take off but for now they we have no market share home fortunately I mean that summer is here which is so tiny compared to those other websites outlook analytics over the past fifteen years that website hundreds maybe thousands websites it’s all the same Google just dominated the traffic and doesn’t even compare how much they get versus everything else and if they took a lot of the business most websites are probably fail unfortunately just because Google’s brings in so much shock and that’s running paid ads but if you try to get that free traffic for now Google just runs the show it it certainly feels like I mean they have G. email server using G. Mel the reading all your emails if you’re using chrome they’re tracking everything on the android phone the tracking I think you’re talking everything I mean no matter what everyone’s tracking and taking all the data and selling and often it’s tough nowadays but hopefully things change in the future but for now is selling off that data that’s all they care about I think just on that point of them selling the data that is that we generated in that we think may be belongs to us but actually were handing it over a lot of the time aren’t we was I really realizing are being conscious of it I’ve been thinking about this quite a lot because again as a podcaster show %HESITATION so much as my marketing in a way relies on me asking my listeners to help me C. Reetz and refugee unsubscribe and see share on their own social media and that sort of thing the I’m very conscious that I’m asking them to say it works for me for free one eighty thought so I wondered if you know if any of those sort of more ethically she’s come up with what you do or do your clients tend not to really worry if I thought sort of saying you know what what do you think right those sorts of issues we’re not supposed to ask for reviews will on yelp they tell you don’t ask for users to get the terms of service these are all these other platforms don’t want you to ask for reviews that they do scene or catch you asking for reviews the park penalize you where we move a lot of those reviews so you can’t really be doing that I mean everyone does it but you’re not supposed to do it but you see like nobody really falls I think everyone’s just trying to bend the rules a little bit because if you don’t ask for reviews no it’s gonna find you see it do some says like with asio Google says don’t do anything thank you but you have to do some SCO because if you don’t do anything you can pay as you do not see %HESITATION I mean if you look at all these big corporations have teams of people doing asio so you’re not gonna CO United we found but to Google they say don’t do anything but you have to take everything with a grain of salt whatever they tell you start with a full to the deciding what they want to hear because they aren’t you really know what’s going on I suppose in a way for small creators and small business owners and the light that makes things quite difficult because you want to do things by the bank but you you’re also this tiny voice at this massive voids and you don’t even want to be a monopoly you just one year your tiny little share of the action so I mean is there anything see you come up with %HESITATION you come across because any nice examples of where people do things really well and it’s quite successful for them I mean if you look at like podcasters a thing number one is like Joe Rogan he never advertises he just doesn’t all organic with grassroots so that’s the way to do it but he’s been doing it for so long and builds up and builds it up in one of the first people doing it so that also helps out if your one of the first on Instagram you get a head start resembling L. senses joining eight years later you’ve had eight years to build it up and build up and build up that audience getting in at the beginning taking full control of everything don’t just posted up on other websites like Facebook Instagram Twitter YouTube Pinterest you don’t really own any of that stuff you’re just renting space from all these companies and they take it down anytime and they have full control or content where is you have your own website you have full control of it and you can do whatever you want and we have that forever where is you put something on YouTube you just renting space off you too and they’re not paying you that much you might make a dollar for every thousand views so you to the top paying out that much %HESITATION Facebook’s not going to pay you to post videos on there so there is take all that content and using it to help grow their brands help grow more traffic to Spotify iTunes to stitch all the podcasts ones you’re helping grow these podcasts verses you posted on there to get more exposure to ultimately back to your website because that’s ultimately what you want people to your website don’t keep going on social media because too many distractions to meno too much noise there’s no engagement anymore so if you do have a big following on social media post on Facebook only five percent of people that like your page let me see what you post on Instagram and might be twenty percent of the people of folly we’ll see what you post so getting followers really means nothing nowadays because there’s no engagement all the platforms that you have to enforce the advertise online I try to stay clear of advertisements if you can because they’re expensive and they add up and not the the fact that people see the ads and they don’t trust ads like they trust organic results one of the nice things he and reading up on your website I find that really refreshing actually that you advise not to use paid out for its on these platforms %HESITATION because normally when I go to weapon are some things when I try and get advice on how to increase my audience increase my reach and grow as a podcast and that sort of thing that is one of the things that is suggested as %HESITATION just pay it better money and promote your poster that sort of thing and and I’m very skeptical of I thought so %HESITATION I’d love for you to if you don’t mind said maybe talk a bit more about I thought and maybe if you know a bite highs algorithms work because I feel certainly as having a business account on Instagram it feels as if they’re deliberately hiding your stuff unless you pay them the second they have stockholders so Instagram is owned by Facebook and Facebook on public they need to make money they realized there was a contact there buddy and put this little blue button that says Bruce’s post up there people are gonna start clicking the boost is supposed to show the content to everyone that follows him because they thought realized we only show your content that eighty percent of people that fall like your page okay this little button here people are clicking and spend money they’re like I probably should be content to forty five percent of people like you know people still put it in the drop in the thirty twenty ten that’s five percent of the people like you let me see what you post without clicking that little blue button to boost a post but never click that blue blooded because that’s just throwing money to Facebook that’s not how you run ads if you really can’t run ads you have to go to the Facebook ad manager for Tyron Instagram ads you have to go to the Facebook ad manager don’t click the blue button that size is the room anyway because you’ll get full control it makes it easy to run an ad because just click that button but you really need to run ads prop if you’re gonna do and that’s through the Facebook ad manager but even then it’s just spend the audience on Facebook if they are then run some ads but make sure you lead people to your website or somewhere where you have full control judges promote somebody to Spotify because there is advertising for Spotify and helping grow Spotify which can help you grow your audience that ultimately you want people to your website because that’s where you have full control you try to capture the email addresses maybe get some whatever your conversion goal is but that’s where you can actually get people comfort versus just being on the podcast or sending people to like sort of like is whether or not Spotify worked there on iTunes in the sentence modified the not gonna listen or if they’re on stitcher I have eighty others too many options out there but if you have on your website has all options right there then they can pick and choose to have a place where you can have it natively embedded on Facebook but even then you’re stopping Facebook yeah that’s really good advice I think that’s a really helpful to sanction actually between the paste posts and siad manager I hadn’t heard that before so light I hope that’s really useful for other people as well but it does feel I mean it makes a lot of sense but it also feels very I did almost hurtful that you have to pay to reach our own audience in the audience if you’ve already built and you have to give them some money so that all of those people might see your posts yes so that’s the frustration and I know that I for one have skills pocket pets on social media and I have as yet been advising I’ve been trying to build the websites and make improvements you know when I’ve called better time local and just federalist something and try and just be said about more so without one of the main things you tend it I eases people having a really good websites I just revise that you own everything don’t rent space by the people because what happens if you put all your eggs on my back thank you just focused on my face and then took a merges you stick by space you’ll be like now you just gone no it really be finding you so you I also diversify you know I just focus on one social media platform but ultimately it’s sad to know that they could take you down they just disappear Facebook is on the decline Instagram is taking off but took dog is growing exponentially and just try to be in from the right people the right time but your website is here is where you can get full control no it’s gonna kick you off your website or to censor you or take you down or anything like that where it’s always other platforms will do that anytime you do any against our terms of service which I think break the rules but the rules are pretty lax check like that some rules that don’t make any sense why these platforms that take you down for almost nothing in getting in contact with them getting your account back is almost impossible you don’t want to rely on these platforms you want to have something that you have full ownership just in case something does happen because you never know these platforms is taking down an insect or some good flag you and they take you down is because that person flag even that could be a competitor of yours that’s the screen advice from big thanks to our generous patrons Apache on dot com forward slash AP cultures for keeping us going if you’re not already supporting us your missing item behind the scenes content exclusive audio and early releases as well as being justifiably smoke for helping identity podcaster sharing free education you can see all my mistakes and get actions no one else is hearing all straight to your inbox or personal RSS feeds join the part today at the entry on dot com forward slash A. three cultures I thank task is well it’s to sort of put it back on to you for a moment what is it about all of this set makes you want to work in this area yeah and I like helping businesses watching them grow kind of take off and get them from that start up phase or whether phase ran to the next level and help them get that never ending supply of traffic from Google so they can be sustainable and not have to worry about spending money on ads are running TV or radio it’s going door to door cold calling people is just helping businesses trying to get them to their next level and help them succeed is the part I like about that seo and digital marketing so do you feel like maybe there’s the emergence of amazement box two words word of mine he said that sort of thing is important and just this is that sort of near digital incarnation of Ford of mice which you say right after the pandemic everyone realize that they need to be online like in the beginning everyone’s kind of try to figure out what to do right like March April may June twenty twenty around like September I was targeting the call saying anything out what did you need to be online begins I’m not online I was gonna find me because there’s no other way to get traction and because of that in the future so you got to be prepared and everyone is connect everyone has a cellphone to everyone’s online nowadays for the most part I want a cell phone and it’s too easy to connect and if you’re not online you’re missing out significantly is this a local brick and mortar store you might get people from twenty thirty mile radius but once you’re online to get people all over the world visiting you so really opens up things and helps you grow exponentially in just take you to that next level of globalization %HESITATION being a national brand or being a statewide Brad whatever trying to focus on instead just having that little tiny area now you can actually grow and reach a wider net of people do you see any trends that might be indicative of what could be coming in the future how you all of this might look like I mean it’s an away from somebody who’s afraid I her son and a lot of this it feels like it’s too much and it’s going to implode at some points I mean who do you think there’s any way of being able to say that Tyler protects your first see what could be a natural conclusion for a lot of stress or where we’re going it seems like the metaverse and just everyone just plug and everyone’s already on the phones all day and still get the younger generation they’re all on the phone in a rather be inside their verses in reality so fortunately it seems like everything is gonna be all virtual artificial experiences in simulations and things like that where you’re just plugged in all the time but who knows how that’s going that what that becomes but that seems like that is a feature that everything is going towards right now which is being plugged in permanently and experiencing whatever you want to experience versus experiencing life which is weird but that’s what the kids are grown up on and that’s all they know and that’s what they’re gonna want to do you think there’s any hopes that there might be some sort of hybrids way of saying this is because we are in the moments of our week hadn’t come might have thought search %HESITATION existence what more we can leave our daughter’s house behind for a little while and just be ourselves in the real world safety thank their cell biology and not death will be the older people that are going to be active while the younger generations all connected we’ll be the ones that that that %HESITATION that liars that just don’t want out just like grandparents and one is a computer we’ll be the ones that don’t want to use the simulation or the metaverse whatever he is yeah yeah is W. W. L. back I mean there’s still people that are my age that don’t want to be connected but they’re just out in the jungle somewhere or let me see if you want to really experience and connect with your friends and family whether they’re in United States EU que and wherever they’re at but if not he’s going to be connected with whoever’s in front of me I’m quite worried him we as a species are not just quite involved enough for hi he fast everything’s made thing and they’re gonna really come a Cropper from all of this I was wondering if you’d seen the social dynamic the film that Nixon tell of this idea I was just curious if you seen and what you thought of that and I knew about this for the past ten years I’ve had top people easy to change people’s perception change elections in yeah I mean the other stuff they want a change in the past they want to change elections of other countries I’ve never even heard of them just like I feel comfortable doing this like this like twelve years ago and then after I realized cantor sending online everything that you see is done by mark very C. online it’s not the best product or service just better marketing and it’s got to everything with a grain of salt just because it’s at the top doesn’t mean it’s best screens they did better marketing and Google trust him or Facebook tracks and more some people trust them and they’re probably reliable they’re not gonna scam you but doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the best product or service that you’re looking at that’s interesting that’s a real warning what I take from that is always take the time to slowly dying and looks through the options open up multiple doctors get one point if you open up the first pages of web or the first ten websites on that first page of Google or whatever search engine you’re on and you could see what the overall trend is and if you just see that it’s all the same thing that was talking about maybe that’s the accurate answer but if you see people give you different options different perspectives maybe you are taking a little bit more and try to figure out which ones right or wrong %HESITATION who is right or wrong I need to differentiate because it’s just people’s opinions are right or wrong less it’s a fact but even there you can trust with the PD and stuff like that there’s people that go in there and there’s editors work the top editors were they make changes nobody looks at that where site we make some of the look at it I know people at the top of that you pay them off the on any page even my country pages and change it where it’s like that’s right like they want me to select in the past I don’t feel comfortable teaching out even know who these people are a lot of teams that left the country to compete is but that’s all that stuff for you people just trust whatever they read online that’s I’ve been realizing of the past couple years it’s a force the people trust what they read online which you should not trust anything you see online because who knows he’s putting that stuff out there and the only reason it’s also diplomatic office just because ranking website at Google takes six months okay something go viral on Facebook takes one hour if you got a bunch of box to get it going viral which is very easy to do for not that much money it’s pretty easy to get stuck on file now it’s a little tougher because it that’s also the lamb and Cambridge analytica everything came out for that it was too easy to do and still is pretty easy to do if you have enough money easy to manipulate people’s perceptions it’s interesting to hear that actually there were quite a few people here %HESITATION on to what was happening and that that we were we’ve all been contributing to all of this for all these years I’m as much a culprit as anybody else from use of social media creating social media platforms that don’t exist anymore as well as you mentioned you know so we’re all in a way complacent but I wonder if there’s a way of turning into runs and it’s maybe a question of awareness but I think that’s just really important what you’re saying is just read more of the peaches come up in your search results on disco this is always a bugbear when I was teaching he had students even though they had access to university library they would go straight to Google and images she’s the first one %HESITATION Cheney search results so we come up %HESITATION as the references you know so I think we’re seeing a meeting point here where critical thinking just needs to just be in common yes I think even when you’re just looking for something you want to buy on the internet but it’s tricky because a lot of these websites in the past and stupid so someone make website called New York times and by B. and Y. then installing times a little bit differently like T. the number one and seven hi and the other T. L. so to else it looks like it and then they write content they shared on Facebook they get to go viral and they send people that and New York times website the whole point is to get you click ads because they want to prove it so right click bait titles that are fake titles to get you to go to that website it looks like New York times you go do it and then ultimately they want to click add to the more people that go to the website to get paper impression CPM model where every thousand visitors they get paid a certain amount of money so that’s also why a lot of people are doing that this is like five years ago eight nine ten years ago a lot of these websites are popping up because it’s easy way to make money very easy way to make money on social media or Facebook it is too easy for years people can expect websites take articles or they just copy articles New York times and just post on their own page and grow their pages in or they buy all ten pages web pages that millions of followers rebrand them and then push out content out there people see that this page has a million lights and pushing out content from New York times even though it’s not really the your ties but they’re not really examine the U. R. L. and then once they get to the website it’s an exact copy of the new York times it’s just as our own ads on it or not content on it and it works really well because people just believe it I mean I wanna see online and force they are believe whatever they want to believe that I can check his bias but after just I understand that most stuff is fake was that you see online is not real I think there’s a real contradiction then and and a lot of the messaging because I think that I’m a really big piece of advice that you tend to get is be authentic be your authentic self and it feels almost counter intuitive to do that on the internet wears so much is on trust birthdate so much as performative or as you say it’s trying to capture something else it’s about smoke and mirrors where it’s just distracting AT and then it’s just grabbing your money I mean do you have any advice Sir just placed a call it’s free some of that noise like higher people supposed said today’s not her she post to be themselves but be safe and SPS wires so much is fake don’t go on social because Google will catch the taking our time to not gonna make that website Google’s on top of all this stuff Google says who’s been around for twenty plus years they’ve seen every track in an odd spot that so quickly wears Facebook is anywhere not used to all the spammers and who’s all about cleaning up the web make sure there’s no spam so Google’s easily gonna find all that stuff and take it down they don’t know how accurate content it’s like if someone writes a fake article or like inaccurate information Google’s not able to fact check all that stuff they don’t have time to check that stuff but they have other singles and help them build that trust up like coming back please do people give you how many people talk about this website where is the social media is just how many likes you get like so pretty easy to fake it’s easier to go on these websites I these box that will just like your content and get it going viral pretty quickly so that one’s a little bit trickier like social easy to spread the fake news Google takes a lot longer to spread fake news because Google doesn’t rank websites immediately takes about six months to really make websites so that’s one difference is Google scrutinizes you a little bit more where is Facebook is just instantaneous that’s really interesting to hear because I think that these are things that I slowly come to learn just experiencing them myself yeah it’s been really interesting actually saying hi social media engagement has changed or has become non existent or is just not exist in the first place at times and as a small creator I’ve had times a night I know what they’re friends of mine here also %HESITATION and depends and small creators they felt the frustration of I’m working so hard I’m saying all the right things and following all the advice and I’m getting some traction I’m getting some engagement but these people over here he seemed to just be putting items and seem to be getting loads and loads of likes and shares and engagement and then I start they’re getting targeted by people he tried it by your time and sell you packages where they’ll share your stuff and then I think it’s not hiding it are they buying it are they buying leakage from I mean high press one it’s not it’s not happening along pretty much as a half also media’s fake accounts but who knows who’s buying them or not that’s tough to see if someone is or not but you kind of see through it sometimes if they’re all from ghost accounts or they don’t have one picture like that who has time to sift through all the people liking your competitors pictures and stuff like that it takes too much time we just focus on your own business if you’re trying to see if they’re buying fake flags because if they are working and there’s nothing you can do about it but you just draw your own by putting out better content and being better marketed by doing better marketing tactics that draw on real people the fake accounts I think that’s a really keep going and I think that was something where I hit a wall where I was getting very frustrated and then I realized that might not even be rails so like you say it’s just stupid thought energy instead of getting annoyed to price things just picked out energy and support your tan and take it to work so yeah it’s good to have that ability is by somebody knows what they’re taking can be a lot better to focus on yourself and not worry about the competition because you can’t control them they control yourself what you’re doing if you find tax useful with your podcasts we’ve got two options for you you can subscribe to the audio visual cultures podcast when you change for captioned videos and you can visit audio visual cultures dot com and click the transcripts top both sites are linked in the show notes along with information like this episode some fans and just because I want to try and focus on years violent again a bit more and I’m just thankful about your business but the business of your building and the same switching ready while he seems to be really busy at the minute you’re also very generously giving a lot of your time a lot of people like me do you have a strategy to have goals like what are your ambitions for this business where are you trying to see Kathy restaurant do you think just wanna keep growing my business and helping as many people out as possible to get that free traffic from Google or whatever search out there in the future but trying to help people get that free traffic and I just keep growing the business to try to keep building up and building it up and take it to that next level and just see how much I could grow and help out apple excites me that SCO or social or paid ads but really focus on that SCO since that’s a long term strategy where is everything else you just kind of renting space off these platforms %HESITATION printing advertising space on these platforms as well as visit just over on that would you like to point listeners see where they can find your your website and read more about you and what you today so for everyone that’s telling and if you I create special gift for them if they go to my website it’s S. E. O. optimizers dot com forward slash get they can find it there and that’s a C. O. O. P. T. I. M. I. Z. E. R. S. dot com force I skipped the U. has hung his I mean that station can get bad version but they go there they can find I gifted everything else about me if you want to get in touch with things like that and then something else eighty when I speak to aghast I’d like to ask if you have anything in particular that you would recommend have you been listening to any podcasts or reading any pics or mean your show %HESITATION well researched on on all of this you really really know your stuff is there anything that you appoint people to words to try and get more information on this or just something that you’re just enjoying that’s not even anything to do with any of that so if you got something that you’d like to just cherish people the best place to learn all this is how you do you just go search on YouTube for things that you want to learn about and just make sure that it’s from the past couple years because everything changes so quick with digital marketing so if you’re watching video if you’re reading an article or blog post from nine years ago it might still be accurate but things change so much that it might not be the most active what’s going on nowadays so when I’m doing research and things like that trying to find things are topical and nothing’s going too far in the past but just trying to be as much as possible Facebook groups are pretty good nowadays to connect and like gays and learn and bounce ideas off other people that’s piling the better places I found his Facebook groups are really really well nowadays but and who knows what’s gonna happen the future but each of it’s always a great spot to get that free content and visual people want video content they don’t want to just read a blog post %HESITATION read article people’s attention spans are too short nowadays so visual content it’s really a everything is shifting towards it seems like anything that you you’re really burning to talk about eight that we haven’t touched on answer any questions they may sister anything you think’s really important that people should know I mean there’s so much with it I just keep working at it and don’t get discouraged and all takes time in nothing’s meeting with all the stuff so just keep pushing and working in the building up and building it up over time it’s just gonna keep on growing but don’t just think everything happens immediately it does take time to grow and get a following an audience get your website rank and all that stuff so just don’t get discouraged if you don’t see that traction within the first couple months because that’s a time nothing is immediate I mean sometimes you go viral but most people are not going viral takes time to build that audience up and just keep on working at it and don’t get discouraged and I think something I’ve really learned this I’ll say making this podcast it’s great to have a small following a dedicated following people who really are with you we honor really there with you on that journey and that’s a lot more fulfilling than having just this was quite an empty M. performative engagement or sharing of things in it when it’s coming from a really good place where people really are listing and they really are engaging and really are telling people that you didn’t get socks and that’s just much more meaningful yeah no I definitely agree one hundred percent it’s nice to have authentic people following you that really care about what you’re doing fans in the bullets unless there’s anything else that you would like to say %HESITATION I think I’ve I’ve learned %HESITATION some units been so brilliant stop machine but if there’s anything else that you would like to say I hope that’s been a really good conversation thanks for having me on and then we share some tips and I perspectives of everything going on in the digital realm this really is so it is it just feels like there’s so much noise site there and it’s really nice to just cut through that and get some clarity and expose the Cup to be asked side of stuff as well yeah definitely just get right to the point in the real information thank you so much


Audiovisual Cultures episode 69 – Writing and Men’s Mental Health with Caleb Harris automated transcript

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hello hello and welcome to the audio visual cultures podcast I am all up there and I'm really pleased to be joined this time by writer ko Paris he is very kind they going to talk about his latest back suffering in silence August fifteenth two thousand three and it's available now for pre order and that's going to say come on on the fifteenth of August this year in twenty twenty I can activate killer piecing matchmaker dot FM this is a website that helps podcast makers and guests find going to bite each other and to connect so huge thanks to them thanks as well to our membership Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures for your continued support if you'd like to make a one off donation you can also do that at buy me a coffee dot com forward slash PDA prior so hello if you're joining us on Instagram life it's my first attempt at recording this way it'll be really great to have your questions and comments as well said pleased to join in we're likely going to talk about men's mental health and issues very brief minutes possibly touching on addiction domestic abuse and suicides Sir things that come up with that and killer to writing so we'll see how we go but just so you're aware those are things we might touch on if you follow Calif on his Instagram is he the he's got a really positive I lack so it won't be hosting a great event will be hopefully really positive look at all of these things just a reminder that all of our episodes are available on U. shape so if you search for my channel and that's the P. A. Blair handled that I use for all of the rest of my work on the podcast you'll be able to find audio visual cultures there all of our back catalog and the most recent episodes of the podcast can also be sure James on just about any podcast platforms including Spotify Google play I chains sign clients and any that does feed into as well and addition T. AV cultures paused on Instagram or on Facebook and Twitter as a feat cultures the website is audio visual cultures DOT wordpress dot com and you can email audio visual cultures at G. mail dot com I'm always looking for guests to please get in touch if you have something that you're working on or ideas that you're working three or just something that you really love and you're burning to talk about it it's something to do with culture you would be really great to hear from me I've been trying to you to this project to try and make it the slippages across different media so I'm really excited to talk to kill it because I really wanted to have an author of fiction and a novelist on for quite awhile so he's not a first time customer he's the first to say yes thank you Caleb and I'm really looking forward to hearing more about his experiences and saying that's the first time doing this on Instagram life just waiting for Caleb to join in on that okay Hey how's it going I'm good how are you doing well hi is it are you in Connecticut is that right yeah I'm in Connecticut the Enfield area right now we just turned three o'clock right now so it's a pretty sunny day overall the lady at eight o'clock in the evening where I am and you cancel hi keeping keep paying lately I've been pretty good I just been working now playing basketball just trying to keep saying because a lot of things are very uncertain but you know it is what it is on basically just taking it one day at a time this all %HESITATION epidemic that is happy and I there was no plans for it so are you really do is just take it one day at a time absolutely yes so many looking for it said talking to you but you're you know %HESITATION coming nights are you happy to see and just bad would you like to tell us about the what it's a bite me can get into specific things as we go yes sure I can just give a brief overview of the book is suffering in silence August fifteenth two thousand three and follows a character named Ricky who is one year older than me I'm twenty six with the characters twenty seven and it basically just takes you through a very long and complex journey of a young man who's been doing drugs alcohol and he's been in domestic abuse situations but he covers it up by basically running away from all this problems but eventually he has that coming to I wouldn't want to see come to Jesus moment but just one of those epiphanies is we basically just says enough is enough and I have to change so he wasn't just a very interesting characters along the way yes this is going to be released on the fifteenth of August is that right yes that is correct but there is a sample available because I read through it there are a few days ago it's a really nice samples to give you an idea of that set up both Ricky and what his situation is and there's a sense of what has gone under in his past we can see how much you want to get into that because you might not want to give the whole plot of that away but certainly from what's readily available already that's setting up quite a lot to do less you know there's an inter generational conflicts and he's a substitute teacher so he's got a very precarious working lifespan or something he's going to grace are these all things that you've been exploring in your affection today it is this by way of investigation or something that you're just trying to work three three section you know hi is that you come to a circus on these kinds of issues no I've always seem like a lot of a young man doing with a lot of personal problems and mostly just bottled up inside and not really talking about it basically just saying well you know I'm fine I'm good I don't need to talk about anything and you know they just have regular job just like Ricky yes just as a regular job goes to a whole bunch of events anything like that and he basically just says well you know as long as I just have one more drink as long as I just have one more drive I'll be fine and nothing else will matter and unfortunately it's the same emotions are seen with other friends and other people when it comes to like relationships personal problems it's always just the I'm fine I'm good mentality but then when you got to sit down and talk to them and actually realize they are in good actually need somebody to talk to which a lot of people are very good at doing because not too many people are good it just understanding what somebody's going through and I think you've got that gender aspect as well because I get the sense from reading it that there's this macho cultures that Ricky's coming up against that he's not saying he's not permitted to have feelings about things yeah it is like Ricky definitely grew up around a lot of like I wouldn't say he grew up around a lot of name but he grew up around guys like him where it's just you had to toughen up like he used to play basketball the couple people but they're all just like the same kind of people they just didn't talk about anything as long as they live through it they were fine and that was their mentality Estes from my perspective you know being a woman in the world and having that other side of toxic masculinity we have to remember is that it affects men that firstly so much of the time that when we teach boys that they're not allowed to be science or share with their sadness and then that has results and possibly addictive behaviors because while they're in P. and so they need something to contract that P. N. but they're not allowed to talk about it either Ricky he he seems to keep weight on this car you know he needs just one more drink before he can do something it's a really interesting way of exploring facts the first chapter it's really quite poignant swear he's not coping with his mother's funeral no not at all and it's one of those things where it's like his mother was really close to him yeah like I don't want to give too much information but I'll just say this is father wasn't close to him but weren't given his mother you know obviously when somebody dies in your family it definitely takes a toll on you so Ricky's mother it was like his mother and his father right so you feel like you lost to parents at the same time it's interesting as well his working life because it's not just that he's a substitute teacher he's working actually with special needs children and young people is paying and he's like I think he feels sometimes he's a hypocrite because you know since he doesn't want to talk about his problems he's supposed to be helping people who have problems but he can't even help themselves and that's one of the reasons why he's you know spiraling out of control all the time because he feels like he's a walking contradiction but he doesn't actually know how to cope with which actually was a toll on him yeah he has some very tense encounters with the head teacher at the school he's something on me that was really telling where because narratively where it touched your brekkie it's his voice but there were times when I can thank all I can tell what that person is taking a bite him and projecting on M. T. now there's a part where he he's so exhausted he can't keep his eyes open any accent may falls asleep at his desk and this is something I have done right you know what I mean like that it's that if you're having a really awful time you're going to be some sort of emotional trauma as he is and you just physically comes in your body just says no nothing there's been times are like I'd actually would not eat my lunch look I was just you know so mentally and physically drained I'm just like I'm so tired and then I fall asleep in my car and then I have a thirty minute lunch break then I go right back in in the mail I just pretended like everything was fine and I talked to my buddies afterwards so you know I wouldn't be feeling so like frustrated or anything like that it definitely happens to the best of us yeah I find that the intergenerational saying fascinating as well because I don't know how conscious it is free if you want to elaborate but certainly from the start of the bank that part that I was able to be needs its older white men he seemed to put pressure on Ricky would you say that's right where do you think it's just the older generation in general I would say a combination of both but more just like the older generation in general like definitely with the older women around him he definitely feels is is because with Ricky he doesn't really believe in god it is one of those things and everyone else believes in god but he doesn't so there's times he feels like isolated and you can't really stand up for themselves one of those quiet passive submissive guys and he turns to food for his own addiction unlike the older generation just doesn't get it because he feels the older generation is has this suck it up get over it kind of attitude and he's just like well wait a minute just still doesn't make any sense because how can I get over something if I can actually talk about it yeah I think that's another reading because she that he represents so stop disconnect this was as a millennial for me and being a child of baby for her so it's like you know I understand that tension ready while is just get over it to you know sort of thing but it hurts you know and you're in pain and they're also in PM and maybe they would all be in a little less being in our we know how to cope with their pain a bit better you know carry it Senate not define us you know or debilitate us isn't so much every ticket that was strictly that he does seem to be really isolated and in that he's carrying yeah he definitely has he has friends to talk to one of his friends is Phil but like him and Phil have they were very weird on and off relationship one minute they're friends the next minute they're not friends and like he's the only friend he has left but they've been friends since they were like kids but it's just you know eventually fill became more toxic for him and actually a body because everything was a lot more simpler when they weren't drinking when they were smoking together but everything became more complicated when they put those two things into play yeah I haven't been able to rate as far as not yet so I have met still but certainly Ricky's work colleagues that's a really %HESITATION I don't know how to pay that it's almost explosive the episode that happens with his colleagues I think their assistants teaching assistants and set yeah the bridge is the main teacher and those are his like para professionals and it goes back to like Ricky being more like passive likely back all of the situation would just resolve it so so much I will do too much and as long as miss weathers doesn't say anything to head principal and then I'll be fine so you kind of do is unfortunately less the whole situation go and it's fascinating because then when it does go up you can see high from the right side it looks like he's possibly for he's lazy but because we're in his hands and the narrative we understand that he's frozen he sends fighter flight he's in survival mode because certainly as somebody with anxiety I really connected with it on that level of Anna so it really throws I'm not on a lot happens with these people there's a lot of issues going on my face three very very different people he get combined and it spent like a Petri dish that blows up allowed thank you yeah and it is just one of those things where it's like as you said before like how Ricky just becomes frozen is because like where he's not really used to confrontation and like anybody who like tries a late challenge him or just talk to him he doesn't really know what to do because he has very like poor communication skills but he has announced hills to become a teacher but not enough skills to be like a leader yeah that's really interesting to think it's because he does seem to say if you don't see him too much interacting with the children and I think because it's his voice he doesn't go into too much but he does seem to be very aware of their dynamics and high the children are going to it to work well I mean I'm saying children but they're young people you know they should have ten fourteen it's just that they might have low functioning autism or some other kind as mental disability which means that they are you mentally very young but he seems to have a real way with them he knows some reading while he knows what's going on said work with them help them that sort of thing so he's been away quite enchiladas or he's prepared to learn do you think there's pressure on people of his age to people than there should have edging into their later twenties do you think there's pressure to be leaders stand is that something you're exploring it Betsy GS in no because like with him there is pressure for him to do it but I think Ricky's mind is just so gonna you can actually just push himself forward he wants to actually be like a leader you want to lead by example he really wants to help these kids will like mentally he just can't get out of his own thoughts so I definitely believe he wants to become the leader but in the book you realize it takes some some time to like a girl who he is as a person and as he figures out who he is as a person things start to become better in his life okay I mean it's a bit of time because I think anybody's brains regarding exercise and you're going straight as well it's not tends to be high it is I'm thirty five now and I think in my twenties as a second adolescence so you do your adolescence %HESITATION can you figure it out so hopefully that's what is going on for him it's a tough read I thought this other couple of chapters because SMS the park professional says as you say are and there's very ableist language coming from these people here supposedly working in last December okay and there's pretty petty arguments about things that are nothing to do with their work but they're also it's quite clear that they're not getting paid enough for what they do they and their asses she there was not a sub machine that you were trying to deal with in the back as well yeah because like are you still at work at a school and right now I'm still working on another school but there are times when like there's people that have become very frustrated and I've heard like some pretty crazy stories I don't know if it's true or not but I definitely will listen and observe a lot of the stories in the main argument was we're not making enough money and you hear this a lot in the news and it's absolutely true but unfortunately you hear the really bad part about in the news where there's actual people who are taking their frustrations out on everybody else and me I've always remain professional I've always just sat on the side income so I was always going to be fine but I never took it out on the kids because they're just random kids that's it they're just trying to get an education and go home we do the best we can do it now and that's all we can really do I suppose then there's something to be set up by the state it's interesting that the few characters that I've encountered and the little bit of the back I've been able to read as he seems to have embassy Arnold's and Ricky same state because although he's talking from at some point if he he does seem aware of other people what's going on with them and then that there's not really much evidence from a lot of the people he has to work with that they see them as they are they too much wrapped up in themselves was that something you were thinking about it yeah I do believe that some of the pair professionals they do care but it's just there to trip up about the money and it's all about the money but it soon because like I said money we all do need money but most importantly in order to keep making money you have to you know keep on working got to establish both incomes and most importantly even if you're making a lot of money you could still be miserable and the reason why I can still be miserable is because if you're making money doing something that you don't love then that's just not going to turn into true happiness do you want to talk anymore right there the massacre piece aspects of the bank even just highlight a little bit %HESITATION yeah we didn't mention just a brief amount of A. I know with %HESITATION Ricky it's one of those things where and as the title suggests is that his father was one one minute though playful giant and the next minute he was just a monster and it was because his dad had so many issues and I believe it ties into way is passive aggressive behavior is because he doesn't want to be like his father and I think that's a lot of pressure with a lot of young man today's because we either have good fathers or you they have bad fathers and when it comes to our society a lot of us don't know how to actually talk about our issues because these are far they're not actually talking about it or we just didn't have a father in the picture I mean the absent father choked but it's one that we're cursed a law and any kind it's fiction writing but it feels like it requires because it's not that lists you know they're still SL happening all the time minutes part of that possibly meant to type of culture would you say it's a combination of like the macho culture but it's really just not understanding who you are as a man because there's no man who just are very like a macho and try to put on a facade but there is so much pain but that's just how they have been used to doing what they're paying unfortunately what we've been saying before like a lot of men don't like to talk about their issues well I've been learning a lot of them are just afraid to or they just they never learn how to actually talk about these things because he never wanted to be deemed as being weak yeah and that's not a weakness like talking about your feelings talking about your problems is not a weakness if anything is one of the strongest things that you can do because you're actually opening up beside yourself that no one has ever been able to see before and that's one of the most beautiful things that anybody could ever do men or women it takes a lot of strength to admit sometimes that you just need help or you just need someone or something that's okay I'd really like to ask you as well about your practice as a writer what was it did pretty compelling GTCR writing after you've been writing fiction for a long time or is this something fairly recent freeing something that's part of your life in a big way yeah I've been writing fiction for quite some time %HESITATION I usually I recently graduated from college in two thousand seventeen with a communication degree so I've always been in select the arts creative writing and all those kind of things but when I came out of college like I had no idea what I wanted to write a bill and it was just like always trying to find the right story like you try to paint yourself over all these kind of people I try to pay myself over many authors in the ones that come to mind is %HESITATION Junot D. az Henry David Thoreau %HESITATION lemony Snicket R. O. L. Stine one rule to goosebumps books lemony Snicket from a series of unfortunate events and just on and on and on and I like put too much pressure on myself to be like those people and I feel like I need to be like cable has to be just like these people yeah I got the ball and all these people when they shake and then here comes to me so it took me awhile to just find my own my creative group so over the years I just started exploring with a lot of things I mean I threw a lot of paper after a while I just started to come up with the series suffering in silence I just said you know what it is just gonna be a series of ten part series where I'm just gonna talk about what young men go through because I get so sick of the media one just basically not talking about it into just not telling the whole story so I'm just going to do it and we're gonna see what happens I think that's sad because it's easy to see things from a surface level and really get and date the so important and I think that's what art is so important as well are to nature writing all of it any mode of expression is so important I thought windows N. T. understanding each other yes I agree any hope that gets an audience that way and it helps not just young man it doesn't just show them that actually you can deal with this in another way but also for other people to realize that this is what they experience as well so this is valid this is important and actually we all benefit at stake at address yeah and also I just believe that like even though the book is like ray and for like young men also like I don't want to discourage women from reading it either because like there are women that don't know not everyone of course but there are women out here they just don't understand women go through and like the ages I think books like this will give you a better depiction of what men go through it's not just %HESITATION well he's just in a hole he's just a douche bag ages sheets also and so they're standing up there and it's not an excuse it's just when the mine isn't one hundred percent correct when the mind is a one hundred percent in sync with the physical self then you know destruction always happens and with a lot of men they have a lot of self destructive behavior and unfortunately they take it out on the women and then the woman become resentful and then the cycle just keeps going on and on and on it is one of those things where it's like you just have to break the cycle because if you don't break the cycle it keeps continuing and the destruction keeps happening and then laws basically disappears and that's something we just can't have it's just so lovely it is to hear any mom talk like that it's really nice it's okay can I ask by your experiences with self publishing and producing E. books as well as physical thanks %HESITATION yeah was so promising I'll be honest I'm still new I'm still learning the ropes but most importantly like I just wanted to just go out here and just do my own thing like the kind of person I am is like I don't like to wait on somebody to make something happen for me like I'll just go out I'll do it myself like all asked people I'll go do interviews all go do anything cause me even myself I'm an introvert but I'm realizing like in order to grow an audience in order to like you know the check more people you have to become more extroverted and it's not easy for me to do but it's just one of those things you have to do but I'm still learning the ropes I'm still getting with advertising marketing and I'm just learning as I go and I'm just hoping for the best but most importantly I'm still gonna just published a book either way this is what the technology allies for not only is he starts about at least for more people to have a voice from what you've experienced so far is there anything you think would be useful for other aspiring writers do you think it's something where you need to research a lot or do you think you need to just try and just go for it what would you say for anybody else who you wanted to get it yeah yeah I say before anyone's going to like write a book on make sure you definitely get a high quality editor because a lot of books on make Amazon aren't actually will break in and a lot of people just think like when there right away okay I could write this I could edit myself but it's always key just to get like a second editor because I know myself like when I'm writing books like this like I know the book is over like two hundred pages and I'm like well I just wrote two hundred pages like better read it over I gotta take this so I'll take that I'll maybe add this in maybe add that in I can miss things I'm a human being but that's what editors are for and if you get yourself an editor %HESITATION a marketing scheme and you learn about Amazon key words and many other things you need to learn about you'll be fine you'll start to have more success and most importantly joining other Facebook groups and just interacting with other people and yet the last tip is just ask for help okay Astrid you need it because everybody needs help and you're going to stress yourself out and burn yourself out if you try to do it yourself so I suppose but self publishing as with all things there's a team R. I. Angie is a hell yeah there is that's really helpful and speaking at what else you had published sun and I was really interested to see you've done a vegetarian kick back as well yeah they hear a bit more about that I recently went vegan about a couple months ago and I was vegetarian in either two thousand nineteen or two thousand eighteen the later part and it was just a personal decision for me because I wanted my body just to feel a lot better but most importantly I would just see like the animal cruelty going on and it was something I just didn't agree with that didn't want to practice anymore so I decided to just go with the cookbook so everybody could wonder ball what do people who don't eat meat or dairy actually eat yeah so it's like our rate well there you go I publish that book and it's been doing pretty well and it's cold no make no problem yep that's correct yeah it looks really fascinating I'm a vegetarian myself so I thought it was really nice idea the idea well what can you do yes and smart swapping night makes could start something a friend would speak in activism is trying to cry it suffice rather than going though I miss my rockers rips or whatever can I ask you as well a bike then facial aspects of your backs because you got really lovely artwork for them is that something that a friend of yours does so where do you hire an illustrator or anything for your coverage of your fax yeah with all my main stuff I always go to Fiverr Fiverr has very good deals and I know there's one feature we could just post to gigs Sir just wanted to do a book cover I just say Hey I need a book cover for such as such within twenty four to forty eight hours and I get around like twenty thirty people respond to me within twenty four hours and it's actually really good to do things that way because you can see who is really good because he was not really good you really don't like the product you can get someone to actually edit it over and over again or you just take it to somebody else and get a refund but I never had any bad experiences on Fiverr those are the things I use whenever I want to do like cookbook layouts book covers a book formatting editing any of those kind of things so I would definitely suggest fiver well that's great because you've got a really nice cover for suffering in silence Sarah and passion of Ricky I think with this headline little back he has a narrative voice it's first person then he makes a lot of references to his size he seems to be very uncomfortable in his own body I think that comes across quite nicely actually and in the image on the cover yeah the idea was like Ricky still no matter what still feels like the fat kid and I can't give too much detail on why he feels like he's the fat kid it's one of those things are you going to have to reinstall it but once you read the whole book you'll understand why Rick you always feel like the fat kid right just a small of my back for ads I feel the read that senator rex already because I feel like I was I thought Kansans and my twenties lost a lot of laughs and radically changed my diet and not sort of thing there are certain areas where I feel like as it isn't just for young man there's a lot of people he will be able to connect with Ricky on a lot of different levels because he's got a lot going on actually so you mentioned this is part of a ten part series so that's a really ambitious projects that you're working on G. have a plan for that it's a great to be the same characters or is it going to be different people so it's going to be different people but basically the whole series will be about a ten book series it's always going to revolve around a young man to the ages of eighteen to thirty six and the same things will apply we're gonna still be talking about depression anxiety domestic abuse sexual abuse and all these kind of things and just any topic that I could find that a young man goes through I'm just going to keep doing my research and I'm basically going to make a whole fictional series out of this it's just going to be based on realism and magic you won't be short of material do you think this is something that's very specific to the United States or it's quite a universal thing as well do you have an idea of what broader areas you might get into what sort of experiences yeah I believe it's definitely one of those worldwide kind of things but in America we talk about it I don't know what happens in any other countries but I know it's one thing when it comes to men like it's always like this statement a like you can't miss a day of work you have to go to the gym like you have to be a certain size like you have to do your certain way you have to be a certain height and it's just all these like crazy state mows and it's like somebody just made a mark and it just seems like we're all just going along with it again is nobody's really like questioning these things but it seems like in America times and you question things people just kinda want to try and silence you and the idea of this book is yes it's called suffering in silence but once you read the book you start understanding the actual suffering because with my idea is I want to be as transparent as like humanly possible because whenever I watched like the media or whatever I watched some books it's like I get this feeling that people are trying to like sugar coat something or just trying to hide something but with my books I don't try to hide anything I believe that's the reason why they become so good certainly the sample of suffering in silence that I read it there are times you have to remind yourself as the character saying that it's not it's not it's not risky at this other kind of injure and he's not saying that you know because they're going in safari at G. areas and I think specially because I mean I sort of find myself night and a couple of sinking the way you're talking you know so people here are empathetic people you are trying to understand each other and then you go right into the world again or you see something on social media and you go oh oh not everybody feels that way right that sort of person that's all not some comfortable shoes you know and that's about it said it will actually going there because people J. Hobson's really problematic opinions about two thirds of other people and it's fine right how do we come from thought but keeping ourselves six so it seems like you do in your pics of real potential to try and expose lead the way and maybe hold somebody's hand in trying to do that I think with books like mine is just is not really a bow or trying to I wouldn't necessarily say this is like one of those kind of books electrodes to make everybody happy and trust it goes more into like because I I mentioned earlier that I'm a big fan of like the series of unfortunate events I used one I was like in middle school like goose bumps so I've always been into like horror drama psychological films and books and things like that and I believe the reason why they were so good and the reason why I like watching him the red M. over and over again is because they were talking about issues that no one else is talking about and I found it fascinating and I will relate to all the stores like Hey I could find myself in this kind of character and that's actually a very good thing to do because a lot of people want to be understood however a lot of us actually need to have somebody to understand us yes yeah that's really wild pets yeah gosh yeah I really see that was just thinking about it Ricky Nye actually that he needs other people to understand him and see him and that's not what he's getting certainly and what I've read stats really and since thank the thought why cannabis or anything else you would like to talk about it because I mean it says on your profile so different for each episode making as well is that something that you want service of making TJ I don't feel making before but I haven't been in the game in a very long time so it's been about four years so %HESITATION last documentary I made was help us and it was revolving around the issues that people go through but is more drug related and the documentary is a bow and fields people from eighteen and up and basically they all have a problem with heroin and I was just trying to give people a reason you know it's a tune into my documentary to show everybody like Hey people know they hear what is going on it's not that the cops are just being silent they're still just trying to figure out ways on how to actually stop it so I've got some pretty good interviews with counselors %HESITATION cops there's also a center at the Enfield television when they're actually doing a couple of a couple of videos just trying to you know bring awareness to the actual issues going non because there's a lot of people are dying off here when and I wanted to tell people that okay there are still rehabilitation centers there are still drop boxes where you can actually drop the drugs inside the box and you will be one hundred percent anonymous and there's so many other solutions so I definitely would recommend everyone check it out the video was on YouTube all you have to do is just type in help us documentary and you'll be able to find it all great great yeah I just try to find it but I'll try again get a link up so it seems like in your creative practice do you think your work is didactic in a way that you think you're trying to get people to to see beyond the surface or to see behind the curtain kind of staying with a lot of these yeah I would definitely say that like I would just say that it's just a very like transparent way there's a different way of thinking I know on my blog unpopular opinions I always talk about like rethink everything and basically everything that you've been not everything you've been told is alive but a lot of things that you've been dealing with as a kid isn't actually normal you just been taught to believe that is normal like for example like young men like when it comes to just dealing with issues it's always drugs sex and alcohol is because of a lot of films that we see where that's just what we've seen and that's what we emulate as children but we actually don't realize that as adults this really wasn't the way to handle our things and now we're dealing with a whole bunch of other mental health issues and we have no idea what to do and now since we're afraid we're not going to actually talk about it we're just going to keep continuing the cycle yeah is there anything else you want to flag up to talk about eight to twelve or do you want said direct people where to go to find all your work right now I'm still in the works of a website of mine is actually under construction but if you just go on tour my Instagram page Caleb page cake you can just check me out on there that's where I'm most active you can look me up on Facebook a could the bears seven one six you can also check out my blogs on unpopular opinions dot com where I basically blog every Monday feel free to share with all your friends and family thank that's great is it okay if I ask you about your Instagram handle D. actually hits cake %HESITATION yeah I do actually do cake and I've never actually told anybody about this story but I'll just do a quick summary Stargate called shattered dreams by the band %HESITATION Johnny hates jazz this will be his name is why was it was more of a play on words of the actual band it didn't sound right to see Caleb page country ended with a cable it's K. and mentions it's been stuck here for like the past three years and it's funny because people like would come to my page you probably think I'm like a very hateful guy what they called the page to see all this positivity like what's all this right now like what you're shocked it's a gorgeous paying it's actually I think the year all your past Instagram post install cost you just for speak enough hope from positivity it's so lovely it's really wonderful you got a lot of inspiration there for a lot of this I think I hope you don't raise I hope I don't either but you know I I believe just leave which is eating better mentally and physically I don't think we're going to lose any time soon that's wonderful it's been so lovely talking to you yeah I really hope we can keep in touch I hope all keep smile and Connecticut's %HESITATION somebody's just says great interview you got some nice grease you definitely do well I hope that helps get word I eat for your back yeah I really encourage people to seek out hold on that I think I'll I'll try and get the back and read it all property because I'm not quite Hector really want to see what happens next is wrecking I really like them and I want to know what's going on with him and she's gonna be okay there's just no one more thing %HESITATION the Amazon paperback will actually be available August fourteenth okay I just had issues with Amazon but it'll be available August fourteenth for paperback but still right now you can get the ebook version and it'll still both books will come out August fifteenth two thousand twenty wonderful thank you so much Kayla you take care of yourself the visual cultures podcast with me call up there and my very special gas in the Paris thank you so much to him the music is common crimes by our tone licensed under creative Commons three point zero non commercial license and it is downloadable from CC mixer don't work thank you all so much for Watson this man give us all your lovely share some likes and hearts subscribe I can't expect and be access to each other

Audiovisual Cultures episode 70 – ThatMeansCountless with Justin Rich automated transcript of the full live recording

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hello and welcome to this live recording of audio-visual cultures podcast with me Paula Blair I am really delighted and very excited to be joined very shortly by Justin rich who is going to tell us about starting the countless blog casts which you can find here on the YouTube and we’re also going to discuss finding your way when approaching making a pod or vlog casts and just different things we encounter along that journey so this is episode 70 of audio-visual cultures and so it’s a good time for me as well to take a bit of stock and to think about this sort of thing as well and maybe share some of my experiences because it’s all a very DIY project so just before I bring in Justin huge thanks to our patreon members and the link is below if you want to find out a bit more about the podcast and what we’re doing with it and if you want to join and support in the work and there are links as well for Justin’s channel so just since that means kind less Channel and so do do go and find those but not yet because this is very important we’re gonna bring in Justin night and we’re gonna have a really nice chat with him so I’m gonna bring in Justin make sure we’re all up and running hello how are you today I am really well thank you how are you doing thanks for having me on yeah it’s really lovely to have you and so I’m in Newcastle upon Tyne in England and whereabouts are you Justin I’m in Jersey United States so hey so it’s really really lovely for me to have this pitch to do these lovely transatlantic connections I was very shy about doing video calls and these sorts of things before lock time before people went into quarantine and it feels like the playing fields has been levels for all of us definitely yeah so would you like to tell us about it by your kind less blogcast and just where you why you got started and what it is you’re trying to do with it but with this quarantine though I’ve always been like a video person and I’m always like music and different stuff so I wanted to learn more about like podcasting too so I started out on Instagram lines doing my own podcast I reached at a couple of Facebook groups I had a couple entrepreneurs and business people come on – and I was just like all right can anybody help me yeah who wants to be on my podcast so yes so I just decided to do that and I transitioned to stream yard after that – so on you could find my podcasts on YouTube countless block s it is the green that means countless so yeah it’s what about me um so I think we’ve got quite a lot of points we can go through and I was thinking first of all about maybe talking about the branding and choosing an iam so for you what is the significance of calling it coin purse so on catalyst to me me is everything it can be anything from culture to sports talking to business people start trying to expand to like a production company to mic also do videography photography poetry so countless to me means a variety of like arts and culture so anything from countless black cast came in effect after um I was like okay this could be a good name to stand out so I thought okay calles Vlad cast so it can reach out to everybody – anybody can watch it – and also – I figured um people could like relate to it – you know countless like if it could be like in this forest music culture anything – even like politics – for example so I just figured out carols be great my name for that – give me an infinite basically fantastic so and that’s some really reflected so far in the diverse range of gasps see you’ve had so far so you were just saying before we started recording you’re on about 30 it’s not yeah almost 30 I’ve acquired on episode 26 I believe yesterday – that was talking to yesterday my guests are our financial adviser entrepreneur and also credit repair specialist – so so yeah and I mean the videos I’ve seen you’ve had somebody who does creative floristry you’ve had novelists different kinds of authors and you know so it’s been really really fascinating to see the range that you’re starting to get on your show yeah it’s great cuz I don’t want to be like boxed in – like I’m in the bay like it’s like the basic stuff you know like sports and music – stuff like that – but I figured people wanted like learn different stuff that’s like quarantine – and instead of like reading like books or like I’m googling stuff I can hear from experts to the so it’s like if I have somebody that knows about credit repair I have them call my show they can like be excited about that – or somebody knows about finances how to help you like budget how to help you get like balance of money or somebody that has like a business you may floor with somebody at business you wanna support that you may need that you know you never know so it’s good especially like and without YouTube Susan and I can watch anytime to Instagram yeah and I think as you you should point night these things are not mutually exclusive you know when you are a creative practitioner or your sports person if you’re working in any kind of industry that might be precarious if you’re self-employed you need to know about finance and you need to know how to market yourself and all of these other things as well yeah of course a lot of its like taboo – so it’s like like people like think not like think as humans like think we know it all – but it’s like we’re like not like kind of like maybe afraid to learn that different stuff we’re not night me and I’d be aware of this stuff too so stuff you don’t learn in the school – the kid learning my podcast – so and so when yeah so I was just thinking as well so a so you’re thinking if I am these are reflective of really broad interests if you love your own because that really chimes with what I’ve been trying to do with audio-visual cultures it’s a very similar idea of trying to explore a wide range and I want your wide range of work going on and interests that people can have because I find because I have an academic background so I’m more I’m an analyst of culture and I’m inquisitive and curious and I find that when I was still involved in academia because I’m not anymore I find that there’s a tendency to letterbox people and just pigeonhole you and she’s really tiny niche categories and you know so I am um from northern ireland’s I did PhD research on culture in Northern Ireland and so I returned up to conferences and people would say oh you’re the Northern Ireland person that was money hole yeah there’s there’s more to everybody than just the one nice thing so that was very much an impulse of mine to get started so so how did you come to you know is it is it I don’t know and is there you how did you come to wanting to look at so many things and not be narrow and it was more like natural like I was like a traveler and there are different things to the quarantine tamati be like travels so I’m just like I couldn’t have one of my audience to on them it may be somebody like in the sports and they want to learn about finances or like it could be like intertwine their like cross over to like how are you doing this now like in like America and like the UK too so it’s like you have a good cross branding too so people can like um one of my different cultures and learn about differently how different that fits to come and we have different systems in like our like our own society so it’s like you could learn about different stuff you may not be aware of so it’s like very like um knowledge about my people I went everybody to come into my blog cast like Larry’s what they taking something away you know yeah yeah that’s a really nice thing about it as violets and we feed our own curiosities but that might help other people listening to it worse so it’s like yesterday I’m listening to people – sometimes I get like like someone doesn’t even gravitation african my next question – so it’s like you know I just like get into it like let them speak and lending myself to so I’m not this like here’s a host like a robot I’m just like learned actually learning stuff and like letting people like express themselves and like any other people you know yeah yeah that’s it um so how do you go about finding your guests so I started with them 33 followers on Instagram and I my 15 in that 1500 now so what I do I go on Facebook and then I reach out the rhythm group say it’s like a business group or like authors group so I find like like reach like a certain audience I’m trying to like like oh my dear – so I like it I am like I make Commission’s on Facebook or I make a post on face like I Instagram I’m okay design I’m looking for entrepreneurs I gave my details like 20 30 minute vlog guest interviews um come talk about your show I’m talk about your life and your experiences so it’s like a great opportunity for that – and um so far I’ve got a lot of feedback – I get a lot of posts – so it’s like it’s very been it’s been very good good so far so I’m just glad I’m almost looking for my guest – to come on – with your RF there or the air writer what did this person for a business anybody to come on and talk about the experience and knowledge you know because a lot of people are like given a platform like speak so it’s like even like you have social issues – I have something to come we’ll talk about that – so that’d be good – mm-hmm yeah um yeah because I think it’s something I’ve struggled with a little bit is finding guests and I am I think cuz I’m quite an introverted very shy person I find it quite difficult to ask people and say whatever podcasters you like to be on uh you know it feels a bit weird and so that’s a big thing oh I’m I’m constantly overcoming you know so it’s really nice to connect as people like you because we’ve connected on it and you just said get get chatting on it and to be able to say oh you know come on – see the see how it goes you know and um yeah cuz I I think I’ve got quite lucky where I approached people and they’ve been so generous so giving with their time and their expertise and so many people who really appreciate it’s just having the opportunity to have a platform yeah it’s it’s nice actually to try and pay like they’re like my platform is a bit small and it is growing but it is small you know i’m not i’m not a professional bodies that co way her mid approach i think but i was saying earlier you know it’s the the the pandemic crisis has leveled that playing field for people like us we’re definitely doing it the same way as profession so it’s in a way that’s been quite helpful for me because it’s giving me that picture yes experimental mark you know it’s good to like collaborate to the podcast this so that my first time clapping it was something in a podcast too so it is great too so it’s like something I like to do again to you know in the future it’s just like a great like a platform to we have sets for each other to you know so that’s it yeah cuz it’s nice to say I mean in a way this is a bit of a crossover because this is two podcasts really getting together and chatting about making a podcast it’s how you like roads so you know it’s like collaboration is like about growth so mmm-hmm yeah um so yeah I was wondering about and interview techniques because your issue I when I watch yours it’s a it’s very much of a broadcast tradition you know where you’re you you’re trying to get out the information you’re gonna making sure people are you know plugging their work and all sorts of things you know see you’ve got a specific set of questions that are have a really helpful structure for the listener and that sort of thing and so it that something you’ve picked up from previous work or yes like I said before my background it’s like I’m television production so on like I never had like a job in industry yet but I’m like going to school I’ve done like my practice was like interviews like that so I asked the questions too but I always been like a curious person to like ask questions to and I feeling with like the podcast too if I ask different questions this is like it’s just like it doesn’t like fit with light doesn’t go with like the like the sit you know so I’m like I have a set questions to would it be like it could be like okay I can think continuation of like the same thing so people like watch it – they’re like oh it’s like this examine that – is I’m good goes along with like the fly casting the brain – so it’s not all over the place – I have like a [ __ ] offer – I have the same questions for them – what I asked asked that before in preparation to affect get anything you want talking about Tuesday like a book you want a plug or you want to plug a project to 8th like that – or like a business – I have them like they want to plug their business – and I also have them at the end – always media – and like the web sites ooh it’s like that’s the point of it – like it’s educational tube like we have to make money – so I was like the you know the honest – yeah if you want to sell you but you need to have like um in this day and age so you need to be pretty stuff out there to like our video to be plenty to see you – cause it everybody’s doing this now so yeah I think that’s a really important point is if I am creative professionals making sure they get what they’re doing because I think there’s some that this is something has come up on my podcast as well is that you know we so many of us are doing works that people think they should have for free and um you want to be able to give it for free but your labor costs something you know I’m giving a lot of time or you and best things and you know microphones and stuff yeah to try and make it half decent – quality and you know you’re using technology you’re using power and you’re doing that instead of doing at other things that could have made you more money and so to provide people with content to be a content provider it’s there’s a cost of some so what I do is on my charge like ten dollars for like a feature like any of you feature but I also do social media promotion too which is basically like post the videos to YouTube Instagram and Facebook if they like yeah I tell them to get semi posters if they’re booked and all that – it sounds like I do my pag packages – cuz like like you said all the stuff like microphones aren’t a free Wi-Fi Wi-Fi is not free laptops are free so it’s like people you need to like understand like it’s art but it’s also like a craft and also like a business – yeah and that’s something I’ve had difficulty letting you because I have I have patreon membership and I have only a few pigeons and they are so very much valued but there are only three of them so there’s not a there’s not a lot of money coming in and um you know there’s only yeah there’s only so long you can really sustain it for and I have you know I cuz cuz for me learning about what you do and charging we built I feel like that’s quite bold and I will never you know it would I yeah I feel the opposite I feel like I I feel really bad because I can’t offer people a fee because they’re giving me their voice maybe their neighbor you know so it’s such a difficult thing to navigate and I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong answer there because I think how you’re doing it you’re thinking away you’re absolutely right you know it isn’t free to do these things and but I think that’s probably saying a lot about the creative industries and massive underfunding yeah definitely – cuz like a good find ads – and all that – but a people are wise in your own like your like your show or your podcast like and I make it money listen to your podcast and I’m making money too so it’s like it’s like there’s like a thin line between like craft then like artistry and like making money – so I just like it conversation we need the head to like you know so it’s tough to have that but we need to have that conversation yeah definitely yet I think it’s really good to be open about these things I’m hearing that a lot more from creative practitioners and I hear it a lot on other podcasts I listen to is you people saying like the only way to actually start to equalize things is if we all start being really honest to buy this of course yeah yeah cuz you know it’s like it’s out there too that there’s money out there for us to and like this it’s like had to paint it too and I had to like not be scared but I was so not like stepping on toes who like you said to like some people are like I mean I’m a postal forward to and I’ve gotten like a lot of like backlash to oh how can you charge for something like this you should be like um we should be like a glad I’m giving my time and all that pseudo sauce like yeah you know that backlash super it’s like no time is like heard stuff but somebody’s that you have to be strong about it too so you know you may you may lose like followers in like you may lose people that man want come on a show but you have to be honest with them too so yeah you’ll find the real like support is – I know yeah that’s it I mean I think like I say there’s no right or wrong answer and if you’re pleasing everybody you’re not really doing it right so we we find the model that has to work for us because as you say you know you we can’t live off air you know thank you I’m just sinner I’m in a really lucky position where um you know I I just happen to have a partner who is earning enough that I can experiment with these kinds of things and be supportive you’ll be supported if I was single I wouldn’t be able to do this you know so it’s I am trying to use that privilege I to make a bit of a platform you know so that’s just what I’m able to do with it and you’re doing it the way you feel able to do with it and I think until we can get adequate funding never mind you know just a request anything – like I said before I do my poetry – and like I’m trying to start – but people are like you know it’s tough not cheap though – like people will pay like something like X amount of money if a commercial like this stuff like – but that’s also your pilot you’re preferring like a service and the quality of this quality like stuff you know it’s like you know McDonald’s or like Burger King restaurants you’re like oh can I get it free like burger or whatever so you know mm-hmm yeah that’s it and I mean if you feel really the only way to get good at these things to get to a professional level is to do them is to keep doing them because if you can’t access the training to do it or if you’ve had training on a university course for example you’re at college or something you still need you know you’re not just gonna walk into a job they’re very few and far between and especially with everything going on at the moment he can’t really be in buildings or on sets with people for an indefinite amount of time anyway so you know you have to make ends meet and um yeah so there’s yeah there’s a lot I think going on there it’s like you said like the DIY approach – because you’re buying your clip into this like you know you’re teaching yourself how to do this stuff – yeah so you know it’s a huge amount of work and and it is work I think we need to be blunt about that it is work that we do even just thinking about right what am I going to say you know when you’re sort of writing notes sublime suffice and to keep you right and to sort of write scripts for yourself for what you’re going to say and um it takes time it takes a lot of energy and you if you sustain yourself with another kind of job and you make you’re bringing money in but it’s using up your energy and your you’d have energy so then you don’t have that in you anymore – you know to experiment to try to get the skills to get the training yes like you know it’s like practice makes perfect you know – even if you don’t get in with the first like sometimes I’m like the scary a frustrated do it I have made it and I’m like oh I’ve been there for like a month sale – so it’s just like and I have no concern with the marketing or like the advertising stuff like yet how to make like a penny we should barter audience – I just been like rolling through it like scheduling and then like questions to some why I’m doing all this my own – I don’t have like that like opinion or anything like that some of us it’s like totally you know why – yeah exactly yeah because I think a while ago I started actually calling myself the producer the editor you know actually shoot this thing over the roles that I do with this because you know I’ll spend however long editing this because the video version will be what it is but I will edit down an audio version that is gonna have all of my misspoken sentences cut out of it I’m gonna sign very coherent so I’m not and these are very exposing doing these videos because I don’t add at those eyes you know um so yeah um I mean so thinking about yours ourselves as producers as creators as makers um I was wondering as well if you had thought spike because it would be sort of edged into this a little bit and we’re in terms of a bit of a backlash that you’ve experienced but I was wondering if you had thought about what you do want to and what you don’t want to platform on your on your show you know because that’s something I I encountered quite early on I guess if it’s not like education or knowledgeable or anything like helping people out sue doesn’t like really like help society help somebody else who would somebody take something away from me I don’t really like need it you know cause like if it’s like a brilliant combination Asian took like an average Yoda’s off the street – it’s like they may have something to say but they may not have like something like extra like useful to say – not to be it sound rude or anything like that – they may not have anything like to say like that helps another personality or some dislike that’s like my main like praying to like helping people that souza yeah yeah cuz I suppose when you’ve had officers on from for example you do always make a point of saying you what advice would you give and what tips would you give yeah yes so I want them to like sell themselves to like I’m here to like help them out too but I want them to like use my platform doubt themselves to it I’ll bring the audience I’ll bring the questions I mean preparation offering like the videos up like that too but I want them to disappear like we’re paid and like ready to like sale to like I’m just like I see like people like shrunk gonna sell books or something for like a that’s a good like a promotion and all that too so I’m like I’m like hey like Oh like come to my podcast – it would be like $10 for the Koala castle all doing that social media most remote media promotion to help you like push your book out there to like you know so and if people are like um like not against it to another people of this like not really like I’m forward up to say okay this keep movin then like try another guess – so yeah yeah there’s always somebody else to say yeah of course cuz I but I do like almost augustness on this like alright then with that souza thing like it’s like endemic – I would like I would like to see how I’m doing by September – if I’m like getting like a quote real job you know hope this takes off by then but if I have to get a job you know but but I’m love doing it so you know yeah yeah and you’re scaling up as well so hopefully it will open more doors for you in that scaling up I mean you’ve ng I mean I’m learning from you you told me about stream which we’re using to record this is a great great source yeah it’s excellent and um you know this is nice um thing I can pass on to other people because I’ve already had a meeting with somebody else about putting together I’m a panel for a podcast recording and you’re thinking of doing you know a live video like this in a similar way and you know so it’s already you know you’ve already picked a tiny bit of are you passing on knowledge and on your helping your community of fellow podcasters already so that’s a really lovely thing to be able to do it’s great – as you can oh you can go live and you’re gonna you can download at the same time then they kind of download audio at the same boat so you can have you can create what I’m trying to do it’s fancy like a podcast to someone put it on a pan will Spotify wherever I can like put it on and then I’ll have the video to some people who listens when I watch it it is really nice to have that option actually because that’s something I’ve had some really nice feedback about recently is um you know I’ve I’ve done it because the first time I did a video recording ie I spoke with somebody on skype and so the so we recorded the video with skype and then I ripped the audio from that and so we had the two versions and you know and then um did Instagram live with Caleb the other week as well and you know it’s so nice to be able to have those two versions of the same thing and yes to spread across different media as well because people some people like I really love audio I love listening to podcasts and I you just put them on and I work away at other things and there are other people who prefer to actually watch a video even if it is just talking heads like me mate but they just prefer to be able to see the people here yeah so it’s nice to be able to today both anyway and then I think with video you’ve got the option then of putting on subtitles at some point so people with maybe hearing impairments might be able to engage as well because that’s something I’m very conscious of but with my accent the subtitling software it doesn’t really help very much it’s you need to be American or RP English and that’s something I wanna learn too is like I had to do like the subtitles too cuz like YouTube had an option to do that too I wasn’t sure to do that so I’m just kind of learning about that this all my summer so you know that’s it yeah I mean there’s a yeah there’s options I think you can have the community setting on so if somebody else wants to pick the subtitles on they can and I’ve been using I’ve been making audiograms so it’s weird and they have I think because it’s only up to a minute Molly it’s not as painful to you it has a subtalar and then you just check that it’s all accurate um so it’s quite good as I say with my accent there’s a lot of fixing it thank you because I’m originally from Belfast so I’m I have a very odd yeah I can understand I can understand yeah I guess everything you’re saying yeah um so yeah and I suppose like another big thing and maybe we have touched less but it’d be nice to just focus on that for a moment is what do you what do you want to achieve with pointless vlog cast I mean and this can be on a personal level this can be in addition to you because you want to plan for other people but for yourself what is it that you think might be a goal or is it a goal in itself yeah recently I’ve thought about like maybe I’ll be able to get a video job out of this TV station there radio station or maybe it’s gonna be like a brand to you know maybe I can like have looking like a weekly YouTube um show you know weekly Spotify something like that too cause right now I’m just like building up like the brand new audience to something still maybe 2 or 3 33 interviews a day now I’m trying to cut them back to like maybe one to two are like like maybe like three weeks and like that too so people can might have something look forward to you know OCN echoes yeah do you bring them out straightaway I suppose because you’re doing it live yes so what is didn’t want to make it like natural as possible so this is an intro and it was just like going to it – I really do like intro for myself – it didn’t like anything maybe 10 second intro and then like I got this like have them talk but it’s like like bring them into this I’m not be about what sort of touches fans – so is this like just get into it yeah yeah and now I think that’s a that’s an important point as well as some it’s the durational show because I am a Rambler you I will talk your arm off and I think being an analyst as well I really want to drill down into things you know I really want up on Park it’s a really horrible term but I do I want to really get to the nitty-gritty of what’s going on and something and understand it and help other people understand it and bring in a range of views and that sort of thing um so I suppose it’s more – more of a long-form kind of thing it’s it tries to be quite investigative so I mean I suppose you’ve got your options are open to you for the future and what you want to do yeah so like I want to bring out more like music music artists maybe I have like performance space stuff come on perform all that so when I get more interactive – like interiors are cool but like they keep going on – people may lose interest to some like if they have something else to look forward to look I’ll they be a show at the end of it or show the beginning – so I have something like that – so you know something like interactive but it’s like something like innovative – yeah I suppose even if you have officers on if they wanted maybe they could do a reading that sort of thing a passage from their back or you know a demonstration of their forestry or whatever it happens to be that might be quite a nice thing to try I yeah I thought about doing that too but I’m like the beginning has been like this focusing on promoting the book suicides is like on a future of man I might consider that though – definitely yeah cuz cuz it’s getting it up and running cuz it’s one of these things where you can prepare and prepare and prepare but I think until you just start doing it and learn as you go and it finds its shape but finds its way a bit I think I think you can over plan you can over prepare for certain things yeah of course I like I’m like I’m just learning to like have like okay questions you do the questions if I have to change a little bit changed a little bit – it’s my life I’m doing for July I’m having more mental health doctors on to talk about mental health in the time like now to something like I’m trying to make that like a month through a weekly so some right now I’m just working on questions super how I wanted to have that set to but I don’t want to have it like the same kind of thing I want people like watch this – so like nothing were going like latter stuff – so I want to help people like bring like doctors and freshmen thought that maybe help them cope with different stuff I may not be able to like know that knowledge about – so I bring expert in – they’ll be it was like help them maybe self it’s a really nice idea I think especially at that stage and the pandemic because we’re coming up to six months since identified as a pandemic so um and I think that’s the thing is the challenges to our mental health with being in a lockdown or quarantine situation and and the unknown ahead of us all so that sounds like a really accent yeah then look I just want to have like a few should this like stuff like that – and this like have like a base like base type of shows – like a base they have like a week of this like one like type of guests you know yeah and some and hopefully that would be good for any prospective employer as well that you can focus on things and you can have theme seasons that sort of thing and because you’re you’re curating this as well in terms of where you place guests and know how you release things and what you focus on yeah like this is do like Facebook live and then I usually do like a watch party with that and then I usually have like YouTube like loaded into like couples at different groups – people will see that – so you know I’m trying to figure out how to like post like more videos like LinkedIn and stuff like that – like other platforms to us see how that works yeah I mean that’s the thing is spreading yourself foreign wise but that in itself is so much work yeah I got something in it ballet oh how do I despite a fight I haven’t even looked at Spotify Pandora like I’m this like oh my god at their after I’m this crash out like after I’m done like downloading and stuff like that to and like this cleaning it up to him this my goodness

it is it’s really tiring it’s like huge and my degree but it is good exciting to and also very like great it’s great to do you know even if it’s also no it is I mean I think it is quite incredible what technology know has allied us today when it’s opened up for a lot of people to be able to do because but new people like us who would have maybe had that education in saya from backgrounds there’s so few jobs learned to but you’ve got all these skills and you you want to build about develop them and find your way and I were able to find way your free software and free platforms that we can use and if we ever make money out of these we can scale up we can go you use their premiere versions of these and make them really prefer and stuff but until we can do that and if we never get to do that we’ve still got this so you know we’re doing it anyway we’re skilling different like what love it so you know I never forget that to who’s always love for your crafting your art yeah yeah yeah it is satisfying finding I write hard I do this site oh we’re not a new thing you know I’m like how do I do this now Google Google sometimes come see you or dislike how the universe is like it gives you like this information is okay though well one less dress yeah yeah yeah absolutely and so just an is there anything else you would like to talk about today is there anything else you want to ask her or talk about or just anything else you’re thinking about just getting people to like watch the um the show and that she like if they’re from it to what getting eyes the people were like um people actually like watch it throughout – and like learn something from it so that’s why I don’t people do these things have no way from you – so this is like maybe maybe out there like I’m wondering our information – may not be able to like find it – so I wish I shared like how else would I like branded up there Julie in our house so I’m marking it out there with that like besides posting and like adding hashtags and all that – okay you know those get blooded – yeah yeah and I suppose that’s that’s an invitation you know for for anybody to join in I mean I I listened to your podcast called wanna be and it’s um it’s a london-based production and it’s hosted by in real Morgan and she’s really knowledgeable she gets a lot of guests who are also really knowledgeable about new marketing and you’re making a podcast and she runs a podcast network and I’m learning a huge amount from just listening to her podcast because you know she has guests who talk about even dying – really really tiny things like em the fonts that you would use and your branding and the colors that you might choose all of these things have a psychological impact when people see them and I suppose it’s using social media in targeted ways where especially if you if you can’t or don’t want to pay for ads for your stuff it’s using it so that people like it enough so it’s gonna keep coming up in algorithms and I mean these are things that I sort of know about theoretically but I’m not very good at and practice so yeah so that’s not that’s mean signposting where is good to go hurt and so was this like you know analytics and like anger is ensuing thing so I was like you can watch a million like YouTube videos or like knowledge but didn’t I do it yourself and like fade that that’s like find a magic pot or whatever – so it’s like how do I do that – so I’m almost there – Aniki oh it think about technology we changing – so it’s like oh this is all new to live is all news like it’s like going a few months to yourself yeah definitely yeah and it’s tiring and we’re looking at ourselves a lot on screens and like things yes yeah because even the even professional interviews you on television and things they wouldn’t be seeing themselves on a screen normally they’re just concentrating on what they’re doing whereas you know when we were on this side of the interface I mean people watching this will just see it on the YouTube but we’re actually in a virtual studio it’s like you talking to yourself to was like this I have to like stay focused and not this thing that sometime you cut yourself – like not sneezing and coughing – they’re not broadcast – I can’t I can’t be a human being robots like stuff oh my god it’s like too much yeah and this is a lot to concentrate on and it’s quite that’s pretty tired yeah yeah I’ve been yes it is absolutely it’s absolutely worth it you know we just get to talk to people like you so nice to do this it’s great huh yeah that feel like they have you on my show – like eventually – I am frightening they available at the moment

typing on those who can hear you can you estimate similarities are going on though because something now it’s the perfect time to talk about real issues – so it’s like not be afraid about like real stop real issues – and like making change like you know cause you know there’s always like it’s always on this idea – it doesn’t want change so it’s it’s like you know theft of it use our platform to like get the word out there – what you know I think so yeah cuz I think there are scary similarities um yes and you can um so yeah that is a conversation for another time yeah um yeah we’ve just been we’ve had a big day in the UK there’s been a massive virtual lobby for Green recovery from the pandemic and so this is something that would have happened in London in front of Parliament but it’s all been online all day so it’s been quite a tiring but really you know hopeful fruitful day of us all talking to your members of parliament our politicians who represent us and and other activists all over the country and so you know being able to use the technologies in those ways and seeing what different people can come together and it’s a really it’s a really lovely thing today and it’s going to you it envelops all of them smarts of issues that we’re all facing at the moment it is great yeah yeah because now is this like more like DIY like stuff to people I feel like going up there making a difference to not waiting for like politicians in law that to Coates wait for them wait waiting for Everest seems so it does yeah that feels very much like it’s a similar in the creative industries where okay we’re you know we’re shining we’re screaming what else we have today everybody’s locked indoors and what are they doing they’re watching movies they’re listening to podcasts they’re watching videos in YouTube people are making those and they’re not being paid enough if they’re being paid yeah Mako’s so look you the creatives are really important and and how do we get people to take us seriously and take notice if I you know so it feels like well we’re just gonna do it anyway we’re not gonna say we’re gonna do it we’ll take in hand you know so yeah so this is bringing like proactive so you know like you know even if like you put up a fight – and like hey like you don’t get anywhere like this make making progress everything is progress though that said absolutely that’s it yeah and yeah so hopefully it will lead to more opportunities yeah and yeah um and um yeah I think everybody you subscribe to kindness vlog cast and give it a watch because there’s some just really fantastic guests on it as well and so Justin is there do you want to is it so you’re on Instagram and that yeah it’s the grant that means countless so what’s that th 18 ma MEA NS countless cou and TL e SS that’s to s at the N and then some on YouTube countless vodcast not to find me on Facebook – Onderon my name Justin rich so one reach out to anybody wanna come on or just watch her to support tools or that’d be great self maxilla that’s great Justin yeah anything else you want to say before we I just appreciate you have me on to UM is great to come on to was like waking up like sometimes I wake up late so it’s good to come on to make myself up to look forward to it all right Francie do you have a heavy day for the rest of the day like I mean I have two interviews at 3:00 and on four o’clock so Wow busy day yeah well I’m at the other end of the day I’m gonna collapse in a heap okay we cannot forgive thee about relaxin – that’s the thing about these – uh so we can’t fit guilty but I’m not never not doing something ever relax or just like mentioning out to somewhere we have to do that – we can’t this be like okay I have to do this now – cuz society – it’s like a nine-to-five type of stuff is like it’s not dying off but it’s just like you know we have to like be in rest our bodies – what our minds – at the same time so you know yeah it does expose suicide harmful that overworking

yeah well thank you so much Justin I’ve really enjoyed talking to you you for having me I appreciate it good luck with everything and let’s keep in touch very definitely definitely next time you come on my show so thank you guys for watching I’d love to yes say thank you thanks very much

okay folks um let’s see where’s my thing gone okay so this has been audio-visual cultures with me Paula Blair and my very special guest Justin rich and forgets checkout that means pointless and there is a link to his his channel below this episode was recorded using stream yards the music when it is edited in for the audio is common grind by air tone used under a 3.0 non-commercial Creative Commons license episodes release every other Wednesday wherever you find your podcasts so do you subscribe wherever you watch or listen to them and early releases part already release available when possible for patreon members and that’s at forward slash a V culture she can get it a couple of days earlier on the audio there be part of the conversation with AV cultures on Facebook and Twitter and AV cultures pod on Instagram keep watching those hands and being excellent to yourselves and each other thank you so much for joining us and I


Audiovisual Cultures 104 – Beyond the Halls with Mackenzie Finklea automated transcript

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This is Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and media join me your host Paula Blair and the researchers, practitioners and enthusiasts I meet along the way see our website at and other links in the show notes for more information for now enjoy the show thank you for cheating and see what do you think she'll cultures the podcast that explores different areas of arts and culture with me your host all up there to date we're returning to a topic of great interest to me but it's one that we haven't visited for a while namely museums  with my special guest today mackenzie  Finkley. mackenzie is the author of beyond the holes an insider's guide to loving museums and mackenzie has a background and that's our policy as well so these are all great topics for us to really get stuck and say after I expanded very warm welcome to you I can say hello %HESITATION hello it's so nice to meet you and talk to you today yes like grace McKenzie hi are you eating are you well today I am doing well today thank you for asking if you hear any %HESITATION low but is that is the fun musical sounds of the cicadas in the trees outside my house it is very hot where I am and I'm very thankful to be inside in the air conditioning okay interesting is it okay to ask where bites your at the moment absolutely I am from Houston Texas in the United States that's pretty exciting Texas is a state I'm very curious about it I'm very curious but holistically emeritus for Sierra taxes since an interesting place I gather but yes very hard at the moment yes it is an interesting place that is an enormous state with all different kinds of cultures and biomes where can I talked quite a bit but museums I hope we're going to properly Nur die to play museums it's a topic I really love we have had some episodes about eighty CM visits and certain museums and that kind of thing but not for read a long time so I'm so grateful that you've brought up this opportunity to talk about next set topic really close to my heart as well I've lived all kinds of museums since childhood and I was wondering what is the debate museums that really draws you in so much that's such a good question what is it about museums that draws me in so much I think for me I am an incredibly visual person and I also love to learn and the museums are beautiful marriage of those two things I love going to museums and getting to see objects of history kind of having the starstruck moments where you're like hello this is a piece of the moon you can actually touch you know things like that and getting to learn then to continue on the moon example there's this really great exhibit where they had all these different scales and you could learn about the difference between mass and gravity with the scales and it would tell you how much she would weigh on different planets who right on the moon versus all the other things instead of getting to see those actual numbers and laugh about them with your friends right like the thousands of pounds you weigh on Jupiter right it's fun interactives and moments like that and shared experiences that are why I love museums so much traffic on Sir do you have a favorite type of museum do you love all the same sekali R. as a techie types of sneezing cyclic like some specialized museums I have a special place in my heart for natural history museums those are probably my favorite type I do love all types I love visiting all types %HESITATION more recently I found a new found love for art museums and contemporary art so my favorites and my current loves are always changing but there is a special place in my heart for natural history is not to to U. S. life on this planet and learning more about that more but she made history what is it exactly by natural history that really get to see much it's exactly that it's all of the above what gets me is trying to answer these really big picture questions of who are we where do we come from how does the world work in all its facets you know how to animals live breathe eat reproduce what's the water cycle what's volcanoes and natural disasters and all of these really big wow factor things that are very much real parts of our life that we for centuries are seeking to understand and always always there is something new to learn and there's always a new fossel it's been discovered that teaches us something different about evolution of some species whether or not it's us or %HESITATION turtles or dolphins or you know the list goes on and on that's why I love them there's always something new to learn and it answers really big picture questions and concepts yeah I'm a big fan of sat T. I. E. when I was a kid I probably still stay from feminist I I have a burning desire to be a paleontologist's dinosaurs are must love of I think yes to anything pre historic is mind blowing to me and hi that sets and tell us today is ridiculous to learn of plates have you had the opportunity to visit lots of difference natural history museums and lots of different locations I wondered what you think of the sock comparative experience yes I have had the luxury of visiting other natural history museums in other locations and I will tell you that one of my ultimate favorites and it's gonna be a funny answer because it's not like the biggest or the most impressive but one of my favorites is the natural history museum on the university of Oxford campus okay what I really love about that museum is just the architecture the %HESITATION this is gonna be such a Gen Z. thing to say but the vibes but also there are these really cool parts of the museum where there are all of these columns made out of all the different types of stone that are native to the British Isles and that is such like an incredible learning moment because not only are you showing like you know the strength of stone how it can be used but in context with actually where the museum is and that makes that particular museum unique because so many natural history museums cover all the exact same topics or they try to have the exact same replicas of famous bottles but not all of them have the fossils right because only one museum can have it in the one copy but I thought that one was particularly compelling that in a very just generally enjoyable experience for me %HESITATION that's ridiculous here I haven't even been to Oxford so he's got me on that one that you sang that does remind me there is a really nice natural history museum in Manchester university so just a bit north of socks and it's talks right end of the campus so easy you really have to know what's in there and I love the small ones like that we can collect the chore syndicate all the samples and it'll different rock samples and stuff it's a really nice example tonight where anybody does something unique because as you say there's a pretty big ones you know opens today natural history museum of London that's when you have to go see if you're there and absolutely yeah it's huge and it's almost overwhelming there's so much stuff I am also an example of Zeus smaller rooms as well I think that's really important to remember are these the kinds of things you go into the and your back beyond the wholesome mean what was it that really motivated GT go right I love museums not enough other people love museums I need this project this problem what was it about all the stuff that goes to the right topic it was exactly all of what you're describing so when I was doing my studies in anthropology towards the end of my undergraduate degree I realized that my interests primarily lie in displays of human culture and I was getting %HESITATION professional museum studies certificate and I was visiting at least one U. CM a week many times more than one and I was doing all of this writing and learning all these things and having these great experiences and I wanted to share that with other people I wanted other people to enjoy museums and learn these valuable things that I was learning at my studies in a very specific kind of program but I wanted it to be accessible %HESITATION and help people you know love museums more sense it's important and we can of course get into that later if you like but ultimately what I wanted to write was something that was it accessible as I believe museums should be accessible to everyone so why would I want this book to be any different right I wanted something that wasn't a boring tech X. book like truthfully many of the books I had to read for class and I wanted something that wasn't just a very specific guide to a specific kind of museum or place or period I wanted it to be a general exploration of museums especially for people who don't visit or think they're not important or just want to understand them better so that's ultimately what I produced was a guide to loving museums that covers a ton of different areas green I wonder is well it might what do people see as barriers T. access as you say because I know my experience in the U. K. it's may be seen as a for a middle class things today is going to museums even if most of them are free to go and say it's just something that other people daily where is my background is probably a bit unique in that I am my grandfather was a security guard and %HESITATION living history museum so I spent a lot of my summers just running a fight these fields and this living history museum so it was a fluke and transports me Sam so I was physically learning about the history of my please so it was the Ulster folk and transport museum in Northern Ireland they would have said actual colleges that people really live stand would have been taken apart very carefully rebuilt some sites and sometimes they would have investigators are demonstrators the last time I was there and this was just a few years ago they had somebody using the latency no somebody actually waving the way they would have a couple of hundred years ago you know and telling us if I didn't mean it is just such a fascinating experience like you're saying that's when you can actually see it and it comes alive free it's much more meaningful so it's something I think about quite a bit is how do we get more people to realize this is for years while you know it's fake questions %HESITATION just to try and drill into that a bit more we want to purchase G. Shanker are helpful and trying to achieve not that's a good one I think it's a lot of what you just said %HESITATION making museums accessible and in many ways entertaining and the entertainment value can either be in your face or more nuanced and here's kind of what I mean by that is within your face entertainment you're gonna have really interactive museums opportunities to ride on train cars you know through nineteen twenty Chicago right or actually touching a moon rock to use an earlier example but then the other more nuanced ways in which %HESITATION museums can provide entertainment value is through fun games or educational curriculum that museum educators provide and museum educator is like a specific position at a museum but I'm sure you're familiar with and those are typically the people that lead school tours or field trips and they will come up with a whole set of really interesting games for ways to interact with things as simple as a painting on a wall to really provide context learning opportunity and that's something that's actually fun and memorable so that's another thing that I really wanted people to have access to was games that they could play on their own in art museums and help them realize it's not as boring as you might think it is at face value yeah is this just to push a bit further without points on interactivity I'm a big fan of tears I really like a museum terror and to see absolutely yes three the ISIS somebody you because it's usually a volunteer it's not even always a member of staff at somebody who has such passion or maybe they're retired historian or something and they have such a passion that they want to lead people three and for you to see it through their eyes I think the last time I managed to date that was an Attenborough I think it's the national museum of Scotland it was thought it was a retired historian and he was just so lovely and so knowledgeable oil and just really passionate you get a nice good people and you're walking around together and %HESITATION I mean this was in December of twenty nineteen so this was before things were really naming properly it was a real joy because I think it's a Saturday or you can get really overwhelmed if it's a very fake museum with lots of different sections and it's trying to cover all the bases and to just see it three right we're just gonna get the specific things in there you're going to see a narrative unfolds got something it's really getting to me what do you think it bites hers and that sort of thing because you can also get order you terse order ops and things like that they'll take you on a tour of mean do you have much experience aside or what are your thoughts on those sorts of activities absolutely in my personal opinion is that I love in person to worse more than anything because audio tours are great they are accessible you can use them at any time you can access them from home in some cases personally I'm less inclined to listen to an area ambiguous robot voice as I'm walking through a museum way more inclined to exactly what you were saying watch a person get really animated and passionate about the things that they're talking about hearing from their expected natural off the cuff storytelling and not as scripted recordings I do really enjoy museum tours especially in the before times you know when I would travel to go see a museum I would make an effort to try to book a museum tour because that's also if you have a limited amount of time in a city or a place they will show you the highlights they will show you the most compelling pieces or artifacts that the museum highlights and then tell you from their perspective it gives you really great insight into the culture of that place as well getting to experience it through the eyes of the person who lived it was online math it's it's not something you a field of in the past couple of years because we've had last access I don't know what your pandemic experience in Spain but I have to museums near ye been accessible through online means I mean there's all sorts of implications are with from dying and he's able to provide that of course then again we've been able to access places in the world we may not have been able to before because we can travel there so I was wondering hi his your access to museums bane and the past couple of years hasn't changed a lot I will say so my book was published in December of twenty nineteen so slightly in the before times right I do talk a great deal about the digitization of museums and how a lot of museums even before Kobe we're starting to put a lot of their collections online to be more accessible to people which is an absolutely great thing and speaks volumes about the rapid acceleration and development of the internet and digital access in general then during a global pandemic that rapid acceleration towards digitisation such a hardware display is more important now than ever because many museums especially in the beginning when everything especially museums had to shut down entirely a lot of museums didn't bounce back from that number had to permanently close some are on the brink of having to permanently close and so being able to provide visitors with ways to engage and support the museum from the comfort of their home has played an increasingly important role not only in accessibility for learning opportunities but also in supporting the museum's business model and keeping it open and continuing to be able to preserve cultural history so locally to answer your question yes the museum's near me have done a really great job of providing virtual events especially in the in the thick of it as we were starting to get better %HESITATION but a couple months ago they were doing a really great job of providing outdoor events things where people could come together distanced but still have these great learning opportunities or a lot of museums near me and across the country have implemented the concept of time demands so that way you come at a certain time and there's not too many people in the museum it runs to the course to prevent the spread of disease a lot of that has changed in the past couple weeks even but yeah hopefully that answers your question it's a lot to think about it I think and as you say the implications of that acceleration of moving everything online we're in very intense times it feels there were times especially for early on when we didn't really know what this was he asks you know a year and a half ago I felt a bit overwhelmed just thinking oh this is going online %HESITATION that's going online %HESITATION I can view got exhibition online I'm sitting but I need to get some work son I can't just sit and let me see here yeah the three sixty degrees online all day and ended up forgetting about it most of it so I think in a way personally I fax est museums and galleries probably a lot less than I would have done if I had of been able to just go right I'm just gonna transfer it to him to school and have a look round an exhibition or something and I don't know hi David title but I wonder if other people are taught that similar experience where people have access to more because before they didn't have the time and then they're on furlough and the dates and all sorts of things I think people who study this sort of thing in a formal way are going to have some work cut out for them to go through hell with him would you like to receive updates links and special offers straight to your inbox and visit audio visual cultures tower presto com to sign up to our mailing list something I eat thank you bye a lot as well as potential problems as PCM speeches we were talking earlier but some of the bigger older ones and especially here in the U. K. risks auctions last colonial history and places like the British Museum matches in upstate global and situation and many ways because there's nothing actually British and they have very little and he everything's covered from everywhere else and I was wondering if you ever come across people challenging yet but that sort of thing because I feel like it's something we need to address that we need to confront said we need to just say yep that's our history and that's not but why do you feel the bite those sorts of issues if they arise and how you might deal with challenges to pot I do really enjoy this topic I like talking about the British Museum because truthfully I have a love hate relationship with that because the very first time I got to visit the British Museum was in the summer of twenty eighteen so I had not yet finished my degree I was the summer before my senior year %HESITATION budding anthropologist just like jumping in my seat waiting in line to get into the British Museum because it is you're absolutely right this global institution where you can see thousands of years of human culture across the world in one place started walking through and seeing all of the things and wondering where they came from and how they came to be into that institution and learning more about the ways in which those objects were acquired and then some of the contentions regarding the fact that a lot of those objects have been requested to be formally returned and subsequently denied so the more I learned the more that the magic was kind of stripped away from me so it's been really wonderful institution I absolutely believe that something like that should exist but at the same time yeah you have really big ethical questions that need to be answered and yes people do challenge me on this topic they will often say well especially in the case of the British Museum if they started giving things back they have to give everything back and then they have nothing left which is such an exaggeration and far from the truth but I think that certainly concessions you need to be made I think it's an important topic to philistine and I think we just need to be honest I've heard our colonial power in this country I think the sooner we are in the center we don't yet our ancestors to thought and it's not pretty intense violence on that's horrible scenery might maybe move on as a society yeah we need to find that balance is holding things in posterity and learning from not passed but also not just forgetting and sang all everything's fine and whitewashing it you know quite naturally it's good to know I used to say look I thought sort of thing I think it is an experience when I first I think it was two thousand and nine when I first went to the British Museum and I had thought I was going around going oh everything's from everywhere else and how did they get yeah I had a very similar awakening to it and then just gradually find out more and more but that's not to say that people shouldn't go because it's a really yeah one situation like so many of them that's another pretty basic example and I do have a great love of small museums curiosity type museums ready specific things whether it's seen them myself for where I've seen them on the TV program and they're all ministers places to visit remember being in Barcelona one time and there is a chocolate museum and I was just solely sculptures made out of chocolate I never intended to find somewhere I wasn't looking for that I didn't know I needed thought my life but I went and I had a choice tied as under if you had examples of things again that were smaller and worker came because we talked the natural history examples earlier but at any other came to three specific things that you really love him much like to highlight there are hundreds of small and quirky museums and the first one that comes to mind it's so embarrassing but it's hilarious there is a toilet seat museum oh really in Texas is kind of off the beaten path and it's not about the history of toilet seats or anything more than anything it's a public art display so he has this essentially a garage at this random man's property %HESITATION where he has floor to ceiling toilet seats that people have decorated signs and just completely imprinted their personality on too and I think that there is just so much to think about in terms of what that says about American culture individualism consumerism like you really could get into the weeds with that but also at the surface it's this really fun and quirky like toilet seats you know I think that's a fun example in haven't friend he's an artist and her her work is ready the weird things that she collects and she's done residency site in Virginia you're ready small tines in Virginia and she's done artworks based on right this time has this particular Moscow and sushi's meet at an art exhibition slash museum items things to do with this hot dog mascot you know it's really super specific really off the beaten track I really love things like that really quite blur the fine J. between what's an art exhibition the museum collection yeah you know something that really muddy suse waters I'm quite and spots I'm quite interested and intrigued by things that aren't necessarily museums but the jury yen and then you think actually this is quite like a museum you probably have places like this in the United States as well I don't know if you're aware of the National Trust for example or English heritage you put me on their buildings to places that they look after they become museum of fights I suppose that since and I was wondering what you thought of as well is that a tear of the CMS occasion another awkward first yeah that process of museum of finding an old place or anything like that is that something you've encountered very much sure what do you think that I would send the National Trust in the United Kingdom is definitely more prevalent than the national trust's awareness in the United States so similar concept the National Trust here seeks to preserve places of architectural significance but the National Trust in England is of a different breed I say England because that's the specific region I've been exposed to the most the National Trust and the United Kingdom is a different rate because it's become something more of almost like a passport you have all of these places where you see the little logo and you can almost fill them out and take them off and go and visit them it's also significantly smaller country to explore but %HESITATION yeah I'm getting to go to see places in Dover %HESITATION you'd see the little logo going to the Stonehenge I believe is also included in the National Trust the national trust's in England definitely and the United Kingdom was certainly more obvious to me that and the existence of a national trust in the United States and museum of occasion there are a lot of places and I include them in the book is that don't necessarily feel like museums but in many ways aren't because museums are preservation's of human culture and if we look at it that way lots of things can be used yeah libraries kind of falls under that category historical holds certainly fall under that category and so the museum of the cation of something if we want to think about that word is probably including a gift shop including educational materials to explain the context of the architecture of a place or its contents ticketing and branding and all these things so it's almost like could be institutionalizing of something that makes it a formal museum and there are always those questions over things what gets to be preserved what is deemed worthy enough to be captain posterity he makes those decisions he gets the side when he gets what money to make those decisions so it unfolds and unfolds all the time that's quite a complex issue I think is quite recently at the National Trust property call Tom Brady hall in Worcestershire and it was only saved because it has the specific wall paintings they're actually part of the walls these murals are painted and sites by a specific artist they need to pick specific sayings it's these Greek myths same spot the faces of men swapped out for political figures of the time as just a splash of this is how wealthy we are this is where our political leanings site you're welcome in this ice if you're happy to discuss those things and it was one of those where debate because he says they were falling you know in the nineteen forties and fifties and the families just can't afford to keep them on anymore and that a labour government demanded the risk very high taxes and this was one of hundreds of calls see if only because of these paintings so we've lost so many other super similar but this one's there because of the spending you know so it's still that's sort of questions what gets to see if a place is quite interesting it is very interesting to think about the value of things right if you can come down and think about things of historical significance that may be easy to choose like I was reading this morning about and our archaeological discovery and almost fully intact tent made out of all the parts of a mammoth and its claim to fame is that it's one of the most early examples of architecture mmhm like how incredible is it to be able to say that you have that in your museum so you can say that the thing that you have is the first or an early example up or something incredibly unique that's often unique and rarity ultimately is what makes things very important museums happens like what's worthy of being on display is often a matter of what they have access to sometimes museums can be dumping grounds for donations of people I had a really interesting conversation and interviews part of my book with an exhibition director at the Houston museum of natural science we're standing in the great hall and emotions around and he goes out everything is trash everything in this museum is trash and I was like come again everything is strange because he was saying you know at some point or another it was something that someone didn't want anymore because if they really wanted it you know they would hold on to it for it and want to have it for themselves so either they didn't want it or they passed away and there are errors didn't want it anymore and gifted it to the museum so that's another interesting way that things end up in museums and then because they're in a museum there's this inherent perception of value because it's institutionalized right so a very interesting conversation nine I hadn't heard of that way of thinking about it before bed makes total sense I have managed to see behind the scenes a little bit one time enemy see and when I was doing my PhD research the curator of the Ulster museum in Belfast ways show me some things because I was using something from their permanent collection notice %HESITATION yeah I just needed to watch and study it yeah she's great she gave me this very quick sure and the stage spaces of the museum and there's just all these great art works and sculptures sins you artifacts and drawers and drawers and shelves and shelves for the boxes and everything and she said everything here is virtually of display everything here could be I tired sometimes we circulate stuff but people have their favorite Sir things right there that people just come here specifically to saying they want to see their Spanish Armada clean say want to see a bit already beaten up cost of a T. rex skills well we've got actual dinosaur fossils here but they're just these tiny fragments of things people find on a peach but the real threats of actually awhile fossilized bits of voxel dinosaur it's the iceberg this thing is suppose of what we see in a museum is just the one tense you know the nine ten Sunder is everything inside the box and we don't get to see absolutely would you or someone you know make a great cast an audio visual cultures then email audio visual culture shock dot com to have a conversation they can see Sir anything else told that you really like to chat about it today I feel like I've thrown a lot of questions out but if there's anything you told that you think it's really important that you have a just a message right there for people anything is holy crap the youth like to say yeah one thing I'd like to come back to that I briefly alluded to early on in our conversation and the importance of museums are why they matter why should we bother why should we visit them from what we discussed museums are places where cultural heritage is preserved and if we are not supporting those institutions visiting them what happens to all of those things do they continue to be preserved not even just professionally but just at all we are what we lose when we lose history you know there's all of these doom and gloom concepts of like %HESITATION we're doomed to repeat it but what I'm thinking of is just the learning opportunities the immersive exhibits the moments that things come alive really in your mind not only are they great spaces a community but ultimately preservation of human culture so I want to encourage people to visit support experience with your loved ones museums in all their glory that's great pretty good message and important message I can see where can we find out more at the union about your back you can read more about me and the book at mackenzie frankly dot com pretty easy to remember you can find the book on the ever ubiquitous Amazon dot com you can also find my book on bookshop dot org which I encourage people to support as well to support independent bookstores across the world accents my interest not sentiments as well both mackenzie frankly it's been such a joy speaking with you today you're very welcome back anytime if you ever wanna talk about a specific saying %HESITATION that you're working on or if you have a new project coming I it's you know just give us a show you're welcome back anytime and it's been pretty tough each day mazing thank you so much it's been such a joy talking to you and I look forward to more checks in the future