<Paula Blair> Hello and welcome to edition eleven of Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast exploring sound and image cultures and their many shapes, forms and varieties. I'm your host Paula Blair. This week Andrew Shail and I reflect on our visit to the National Science and Media Museum in Bradford during the Spring break in April 2018. A really big thank you to all our listeners, supporters, sharers and pledgers. To sustain and improve the podcast please consider giving a small monthly amount at patreon.com/avcultures where you can get more information about my other work including videos, blogs and publications. All support is gratefully received and helps make robust arts and humanities education widely accessible. Enjoy the discussion and I'll be back to talk to you again for a little while after. So it's the Spring break and we're joining you from Bradford this time. Yesterday we spent the afternoon in the Science and Media Museum. <Andrew Shail> National Science and Media Museum. <PB> Indeed, and what national even means, it's something that is a bit up for debate I think in this context so we'll maybe get on to that as well. We're just going to talk through a few of our experiences and what we did and some of the exhibitions and what we thought of them and stuff. <AS> Okay so just to provide some Shail historical nerd context, this was what was initially from when it was set up in 1983 the National Museum of Photography, Film and Television was renamed in 2006 as the National Media Museum and then it was renamed last year in 2017 as the National Science and Media Museum. I've been once before, you haven't been <PB> I've never been to Bradford before so I'm having a great time. <AS> And when I went and it was shortly after it became the National Media Museum, even so it was still in a set of galleries, one about film, one about photography, one about TV. It was relatively little exhibition space and those exhibitions, I can see why they weren't deemed to be popularly attractive because clearly what's happened since is in, and part of is the change in the National Science and Media Museum, is lots of interactive exhibits. The biggest one I suppose is the Wonderlab which is the main thing you come to when you get above the temporary exhibitions on the first few floors. Everything there is interactive in some way and the whole point of I think the change to the National Science and Media Museum is that this museum is now a set of insights into the physics of perceiving media objects. <PB> optics and aural-scapes, that kind of thing. <AS> They had ways of showing the oddities of the way that we see the colour, had ways of illustrating how you change the wavelength of a piece of sound, for example, they had ways of illustrating how we perceive <PB> How light and colour works and delays when you're recording things visually or in audio and how frequencies affect whether or not we can even hear. <AS> The sound stuff was - for two very visual people - the sound stuff we found quite intriguing, didn't we? <PB> Really, yeah, it was great. I mean that was when we could get to it <laughing> <AS> Yeah a big thing we ought to name; the elephant in the room was so many kids. <PB> Well because it's the school holidays and it was fantastic, I mean they were all so excited and it was amazing to see them and it was so great to hear that little voice go 'oh this is cool, this is the best thing ever!' you know, and really getting a lot of learning and things like that but unfortunately a lot of the kids are incredibly entitled and were literally pushing us out of the way. I got shoved off, literally shoved off things by children all day. <AS> There was, the variety of kids, I was present at one very interesting interaction. People-watching is a whole other thing you can do at museums like this. I was present at one interaction which was a young and extremely confident girl, probably about seven I think, really well-spoken as well - I don't mean well-spoken in the sense of how politely spoken - just really confident and put together really coherent sentences, instructing these two boys who were slightly older than her how to do a thing, and they would not just listen, that was really intriguing. <PB> Yeah really telling. <AS> And then there was the little kid who came and sat next to us when we were playing <PB> Prince of Persia <AS> on a SEGA I think it was. Oh no it was something else. <PB> It was a Nintendo thing. It was one of the early Nintendo console games I think. My next door neighbours, the boys who lived next door to me had it and I used to watch them playing it for hours on end and I can't believe it because that was so boring yesterday! I mean it was great fun with the kid there; he made it come alive, it was amazing. <AS> His emotional reactions to everything that we were doing <PB> he was really small as well, he must've been three, no older than four. <AS> That little boy? Gauging the ages of kids: this is our superhero weakness is <PB> they're so grown up so fast <AS> I would say six <PB> really? He seemed really small. <AS> physically yeah <PB> He didn't have a huge vocabulary. <AS> Maybe five. But the parent or guardian was so funny because she was trying not to tell him off but was also mortified that he just kept grabbing the joystick off her. <PB> but he was just like 'I'll show you how to do it!' and then he didn't have the wherewithal to do anything. <AS> To be fair, I was probably the only one who'd actually played the game before. <PB> I had watched it being played but I'd never used that controller before. <AS> You see, when I played it I played on a PC so it was all keys. <PB> The friends I watched playing it had a different controller for they didn't have one with a joystick I don't think I can't remember them having that. <AS> and then we played a bit of Sonic the Hedgehog <PB> Well I handed your arse to you on sonic the hedgehog. <AS> I've never understood, I've never understood that game. <PB> don't remember playing that one because it was races actually it was I was sonic in you were tails and we were trying to get to the end in the fastest time yeah that's that's an implied and then just the fact that I won a couple of them doesn't that we get a fax the forgotten how you daily thing for going about all the spiky things might kill you back there okay interestingly though there was a run on the game's gallery and it was hardly a an exhibition about games it was just a gathering with yeah it is a smart kids gallery scene distinction on the left console stuff which you didn't have to pay for on the right lots and lots of arcade games did have to ten twenty it was very low but there's an income stream for that right that is a free museum behind yeah yeah I have to get that money somewhere clearly there are three major revenue streams that museums tend to draw on which are the gift shop and cafe and in this case that multiple screens including I think the first time I've seen U. K. they need to much then gets or anything on top of everything and get money which brings us on to a thing which really seem to have both enjoyed the most I think so he asked and I'm going to say because it was three points first ticket yes for the first year reality and you got eight minutes and I have to say I think it was a bit stingy acted on fifteen eighty three hours ago and while on the go I think it's do this really cool thing which involves corn sophisticated virtual reality yeah yeah the three grapefruit but then I didn't realize it was going to be a mess at least so Kelly could have been there for quite a bit longer actually it was fantastic it was cool thresholds it was a virtual reality exhibition created by going with my coalition it's a combination of a virtual reality headset headphones a backpack which seems to contain lots of things including power for everything that you've gone had Anderson seems to transmit your location to the center computer which is providing you with all this information commission of all that stuff with a broom inside a room and this room is completely white if you're still looks it remembers yeah it's on and it contained rudimentary mock ups of the objects that were individually have to space so if you went and touched the table translates you feel a table the room was probably on to something like twenty feet the line yeah it was a fleet vehicle and it is time to explain what it is because it's not simply that this national science and media museum is hosting an exhibit which is about virtual reality might consider first realty from medium not something that but that the virtual reality experience was a photography exhibition yes that was seventeen thirty nine and of course calling it a photography exhibition slightly not contesting because in the time and it was an exhibition by William Henry fox Talbot at the time he called them photogenic Jordan's and I had a little tiny now when I saw that because I had a look at the book talks to look produced sharing some of his first few what we prefer to go off and the name of the book was the pen of nature so his idea is that the town he's come up with is simply something that permits light that gives light to Penn sort of like writing itself down so photogenic currency yeah as it says Jenna has literally created by a lot of money gives us photography but I come back when we were meant to protect you now imagine a set of basic optical processes very reliable technologies that we used to operate with sexuality having no idea in the group mark them for that this is a human if there's a creative role and it is the human using that in certain ways such as exploiting limited depth of field that comes with certain lenses for example where as in foxtrot this time his description of photography is something which involves creativity anyway he says no human creativity and it's the sun the times some pictures is coming back to me from the graphic novels in the eighteen nineties the sun that %HESITATION just life itself which is which has innate creativity in it because it has this in the capital of the time because it's doing something that up until that point humans have done towards left that conceptual aspect of photography including that it's not cold okay all right and so I just looked up where this virtual reality exhibition was sacked it was an expression of photographs Marijke eighty four to I also think we gotta opening cabinets and these photographs were shown as part of an art exhibit at Somerset house which is on the strand in London the building is now in lots of different things the cultural institute uses part of it king's college London music part of athletes of art institutions use lots of different parts of it that way back in the eighteen thirties when this happened it seems that the royal academy was using as well Sir it was part of a larger exhibit of drawings and paintings I like this idea that it starts off as part of something else it starts off as a kind of kinky form of something that people are already doing when it's something that's been given for the ship in this particular corner and it was at this room that was being recreated was very small group and you sort of order in the mail I don't know why well I I start to get a sense afterwards that you got more time on your VR than I had when I finished I was what you doing here yeah I think he'd go and before me because it took a while to and then I was Jennifer because that's it see if I could get my glasses under the thing and it just took a bit longer I think for me to get all the canton street and there okay Austin I lived I to come in after you I think maybe it was that I just instantly started can have sex with my own hands but I went anyway that's the looking at the photograph so having a look around the room because there's in addition to focus the room itself is fast it was added to the hands thing that was missing I was not aware of this is possible because on the front of our vocals there was a sense that rudimentary sensed what was very close friends of other races based on your own hands yeah other bodies moving around with the pair like the sort of ghostly whitish blogs and I think there's one being sent for the senses that were on the front of our local news it was just everyone backpack was transmitting a signal showing where they were working with because it wasn't over here so I like their recess talked online usually ram and you could see everybody may have been around yeah and there's one point where I could see you and we were talking as well that was the one known V. R. was that in addition to hearing stuff yeah you can also just here to the talking there's one parcel blog and I said Hey guys that you and your yeah it is and we held hands for just a moment yeah we did some stuff the person that there was no interacting with other people in front of US one point when I noticed it was about five ghosts or bunched up in Waco I thought I'm not gonna go anywhere one of them and then one of the attendants came but you'll find someone because yeah and we're like we don't know where we are but you can't see each other I think at that point I was in one of the corners but I was scared of the windows because he Katie there had windows with bars and then you can hold on to the bars and I was granted a running because you look up the sky it was night time and the receipt reading ominous cloud eights and there were people from olden day times walking around there was a point where it shows you the last night if you hear lots of noise happening they're going to windows and there was a riot happening which I don't think you so off I heard the noise of the open windows to windows and there was one person every single window ghost and everything went so far I'll just wait and then it was over yeah you could see if there is justice Kreider's people running and yelling and the repairs for exit was fired there is drunk people leveling Orion's membership chasing some but I so it's been exciting but even before and after that it was just sort of the odd person milling around on the grind it side to make Europe on like a second floor or something they've sued detailed inside as well at the hands of this really fascinating because you could see these blokes and then when you go outside of these blocks you kids call for %HESITATION for a photograph with your palm flat towards that and then you just turned your hands so late and that you could see the photograph close up it was like you have to reach it would've been something you would not have been able to do an exam you can let me just check it out for a drive out from a glass company you wouldn't know a vision you have been able to bring it up to five you can see the details and then I never really fast thinks about it %HESITATION and he needed more time because the room itself was so detailed we were in quite a small box in your inbox the virtual reality reckless here each year actually restricted it was sort of blocked off the surface cabinets either side but it expanded well beyond that space on that roof was really told us while it was so many details so the rush on the Lehrer Swiss maaf flying around at one point I could see something already tiny black scuttling around the floor and I thought maybe it's a nice but I couldn't say close enough and I said don't worry %HESITATION there's something running about on the floor thank you and one of the attendants said yes to the %HESITATION mice and if you look up at this time but there should be some off another down before I could say %HESITATION while or something like that this other woman just fine all this disgusting though come on this is really a co this is so details of people used to sanitize environment that just seeing some sort of non human life the building is disgusting I mean it it's just not even room offices virtual reality mafs author not scuffing any loss it's not like it's snails slamming on the floor there's a particular growers this party to going on to one of the portrait thanks yeah that was the one where I think what he had said you were watching me through the window and I think that was the thing is that you know where one of the ports truths for us in the wild was actually a windows the year started with painting with a spider on enough and dina people are go off and then I this is simple experiences that the first is seeing the first which often well over a century and three calls were very at an eighteen thirty nine yeah these are mostly from the museum's collections lovely stuff and even the earliest the photographs would not actually taken using a camera this is very cool stuff you know it is the naked version of the media forty people figure out constraints to put it in fox Talbot made these exposures by taking the object itself it was leaves ferns lifting and placing them on to the light sensitive paper and then exposing it to light and then coming up again and then fix it somehow and so there was no room using a camera to focus an image onto a screen through eleventh not stuff it was just putting the thing you want to take it for twelve rounds fascinating stuff so the first thing was getting to see these extraordinary breath photographs and collection the second thing was getting to see a virtual reality environment the food was experiencing this very particular source of virtual reality technology because it was we can see what you can hear a degree of interactivity and %HESITATION so your hands without having gloves on yeah the amazing you can do stuff with the hands as long as you're looking at sensors in the front of the goal and the fourth was when I'd finished standing outside through the window watching how what the people when they're in this immersive environment look and you had a smile on your face I'm with impish having a great time it was the opposite %HESITATION that's disgusting you were going this is the this is the kind of thing ever going to do this every day this is great there was a fire in the corner as well so they had to think nothing of spending heater or something and and adding hate so this really Sensirion nonsense is wild but you could see and hear this crock of angering fire and what was in the middle of this massive ram but it's in the corner in the space that you're in some houses lots of long ago because we were in a little slice of a long battery yeah this is like the middle section of a much bigger brands and that was two days to the sailing was really detailed the flower beds ready details all the cop and that signature data and you know you could touch base thank you Rachel you could touch the cabinet so the rich just painted white blades but see kids feel all different sort of corners and bum since the pets that were glass you could touch them for both your face against them I can't think of some of the clothes they some but the mask comes right so far and it's really difficult transaction are far far comes right there is still false they have the chemicals for making up the stuff so I was looking at the labels on the ball who's trying to read them to actually get concern of course is black and my face off the thing and their positive course so that was fine I was really delighted that David Feder for my glasses the person was saying that if you have read a wide thick creams it's a bit difficult %HESITATION they fit just perfectly over mine let's just pause for a moment because at that moment the image using your lesson was going to the squishy lands right on the corner which is the lands on the surface of your eye and it was originating from a screen that was a fire engine off in front of you okay that is a lots of transparency versus being roped in you saying something I think you're seeing a lot with your hands anyway so if that makes sense because you can fail to objects in the red in SharePoint and makes it so even if you can't see your hands wrapped around the bar she knows that there you could say that and it's almost as if they are there you can't see them but you know they're there because you can say that I'm thinking for a small environment when he's supposed to be interacting with lots of things without really going by just creating the environment in white painted wood is feasible with back for any bigger environment it would have to be that you create the sense of touch to having a complete skin covering six which is the ready player one there was an alternative routes to touching something in virtual reality of course there's still a few senses leftovers aren't getting the impression that you are in this virtual world and it's the smell taste sense I think that's what it can get really really impressed if you can smell yeah because they're supposed to be there having that kind of musty smell out probably would it heightened the even more if you could smell the fire but just feeling hate and hearing the crackles lo and seeing the light from a you know this was already quite a lot and this is if you can smell it and %HESITATION right because there's all these other senses are informing what it would be like well thank when you experience one since impulse and you because you're situated with another one hallucinates factor the sense of it's not proprioception as something else %HESITATION fern %HESITATION looking on three touch on some of the other things so it was just a dumb because I just think for a moment about the idea of such a reality as giving a gateway to time travel because this was set up as if it was an exhibition from almost a hundred eighty years ago this is very possible nice if he have detailed documentation of something and this was even today I mean we've got online exhibitions and things like that but if it's virtual reality can if you're somebody who can't travel say feminists or New York or wherever a massive exhibition is if you kids access a virtual reality version that would be incredible media that we see is a lot less immersive cemex have been tempted in that time as providing an opportunity for people who don't have the means or ability to travel to just do it anyway yeah that's one of the dominant discourses in the late nineteen intends about sin as technology advances and becomes more accessible than and makes it more possible that it's more might be acceptable to a wider range of people if you're somebody who you can't afford a hundred stuff pines to go to another country to see a major expansion of something that you really want to say but he can't afford your fiver to see a virtual reality version for twenty minutes or whatever it is and thirty years time fan top key treaty began to democratize he gets to access these things going from that exhibition one of the very first ever photographic exhibitions said thinking about the talk of the exhibition that's in the same at the moment it's called city girls and it's a solo exhibition of photographs taken by you tracked off center I don't know if I'm pronouncing up properly there's quite a lot of information on the museum's website Siskel city girls and that's it by the women who go to see E. Bradford which United's just transferred so they I don't know I just kept saying headlines for United's everywhere shows can make face to face even though I should note that I am going to see Bradford playing football I had some issues with it no one is safe from this talk I mean this is somebody I looked at the activation first and then I read the information about it afterwards I was going on in the exhibition and I could see this person as since trains this person is using at Grady Kate's comment on this setting up a meeting with a lot of the photographs are really well trained and they know what they're taking out and stuff but this is someone with a really good quality comment pointing and shooting on match days and that's fine but I was going awry no thinking well this is fine but I don't really care because it's simple and it doesn't actually matter the relative quite intensive images of people's faces with concern with query they were immersed in the game they had no awareness of the camera in their face that kind of thing some of those who were ready very well taken but because of what the subject matter was I couldn't muster up any emotion about it I told because I seen so many photographs taken by professionals Hey we are technically trained in war zones with people with very similar looks on their faces and they really have something to worry about it so I I find it very difficult to really care about the exhibition and then I think also because it was sort of I think presents is back as always the nice the great famine this thing all these women who also enjoy football and if the range in the diversity of them but I just kept thinking and %HESITATION these women why do you not have any better to do with your time than watching twenty all it's grown man specifically exclusively man running a bite after a bowl that's not feminist tax look up Bradford city women's football club yeah but it wasn't anything to do with them and they weren't watching but the city will know they're watching the man that's the thing it's exclusively the men's team that's a whole other saying it right well it's a homo social environment so yes it is important to point out that women know this as well but it's a very male home social environment but also it's a very %HESITATION basically heteronormative one as well because even still to be gay and mainstream football is a very difficult to base hang in twenty eighteen which is really disappointing so I couldn't really get behind any if not all just looked up new drug offenses buyer on a website called not just took me to infect born in ninety five in Rawalpindi in Pakistan have said is a self taught photographer he lives somewhere and getting on to that when I was reading all of that her bio and when I was reading that exhibition taxed after looking at the photographs this is an exhibition that was funded by arts council England I think it's amazing that they paid so much support behind someone he actually is I'm not sure and I'm saying I'm mature and the tree sense that this person is not professional is not professionally trained but it's still a really good photographer I think my issue is that just yesterday I was reading about you the other day the arts council of Northern Ireland which is has its own funding cut significantly over the last number of years and then turn is making significant cuts to the arts in north and ardent and she really important studio and gallery spaces haven't hearted off their funding this year and Belfast and I'm absolutely gutted but not PS to the %HESITATION to queen street she deals are part of the very important life flows of the arts and Belfast it's just seeing the difference that's what I'm angry about it it's amazing that in England's the arts council will support somebody from after his background and ability in Northern Ireland there's no room me to support people Hey are professionally trained and incredibly hard working artists their life they're everything they're not self taught they've done several degrees and they're working on it all the time and it's not say that an amateur isn't doing the same on their own time of course they are I'm not trying to devalue the amateur recommend saying that this is the discrepancy between the arts councils across the UK and that's the thing that bothers and upsets me a bit about that but even within the museum itself it's really fascinating to have this virtual exhibition of probably the first ever photographer in a sense and this is somebody who is a scientist I think he counts as the first of a photographer in the U. K. one of these instances yeah there's multiple people in different countries develop yeah same thing three different methods at the same time so one of the earliest what we really can I refer to as a photographer and somebody Hastings scientific experimentation and making art with that to someone who is using a device come a very long well relatively short but also along equalization and that's science where the technology does everything for you okay he can chase while I'm on base in black and white because I'd like them to look refined and I'm gonna have these different focal ranges within one MH because the camera can do a lot for me I can it's that idea of beginning of democratizing he can access the equipment to make these images so I think those side by side is really fascinating within the museum just have a look on the national science and media museum website and we didn't see either the Kodak gallery which is a permanent exhibition of the district attorney for the animation gallery which is a prominent history of animation we also missed just five five minutes the age of animation so well because we were in a very important meeting with this young person who is showing us how to play prince of Persia making get away but we did a lot less with its reasons to try and come back at some other point we did see the television stuff we saw quite a bit of a television exhibition and I had quite a mixed response to as well I mean that was one of the points throughout his questioning what what does it mean by national museum here because from what I can say it was all English and American so is it national in terms of this is where the UK's stuff is %HESITATION highest person national terms if this is England's surfacing in this nation rather than U. K. as the American obviously is because we are still a few days to a dominant American culture I was there to think in those sorts of things expose at the British Museum everything's appropriated from elsewhere and inspect colonization more than anything else but it was ex facie being actually find that disappointing that there was no basically eight Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland didn't exist in this museum that means and it's called the national museum it feels like in other museums of the similar campaigns that we can call themselves national he's got a bit more fair representation of everybody because we're all here you know we all next I mean I live in England since we all mix the old manager ines I feel a bit disappointed that there was nothing from anyone else I say we don't see these also exhibitions and if there isn't any red string of the role of Wales Northern Ireland and Scotland and for a brief period of time quite a bit of time for them yeah that will be not disposing mean specifically in the television stuff because everything about the television exhibition maybe there is enough talk fan don't know but from what we saw at least at a very general or it was specific to the England I think when we sang national television and national news those are the things that everybody's getting it's not the original stuff I think that was where I thought well England needs to yes England has many regions what about service here regions but also nations it's a very messy identity thing that's going on in the United Kingdom if you ask anyone at the moment what do they mean by nation on earth when they use those words if you get onto it the honest answer is I don't know yeah yeah using it I suppose I was crashing impact there but yeah it was more dominant stuff I think when we sat in that there was part where division notable television moment service and screening of specific corrective things that seem to be mostly twentieth century there but I don't remember seeing anything apart from nine eleven there wasn't ready twenty first century stuff nine eleven was the most recent one I think I think so yeah they went from the coronation of Elizabeth second up to %HESITATION which is nineteen fifty three to two thousand and one and the things in between every stuff like on the football team again I don't really know he continues you know I made is that nineteen sixty six England World Cup win in the fifth both is paying and I couldn't stop myself when I showed up afterwards because it is that person might think her own small children never asking her you know all the questions that that because it came on shoes expand all that that with England's when they won the World Cup and I said C. N. ho showed up with a defense go figure out what timing for that it's been over fifty years and I haven't won anything sense stop harping on it but it's not great television moment the thing that happened one time a very long time ago hi many teams have underwear when the World Cup it annoys me because I keep saying that being representatives of this great moment of British historical significance and again I think nothing of my people of my culture or even of the Scottish or Welsh or any regional English stuff there was nothing about the minor strikes there is nothing about the conflict in Northern Ireland we just had the twentieth anniversary of the signing of the Good Friday agreement so there's nothing in this range of craps up by thirty year conflict in this country which is shocking to me I think it's a real oversight and actually speaks volumes to me and yet it pretty much and so it's not that it bans on the planes heading that twin towers I find I mean I there's quite a lot of the stuff I find very difficult to watch but that there was renewed in two years that was the most of the fish I ever seen I think because I deliberately didn't lack I was a teenager when it happens think of a sixteen yeah but to turn seventeen this is an event I didn't have a huge amount of awareness of until after it's because and that same week wait find out that my grandmother had cancer and she never left the hospital so that the family was can change by our own that %HESITATION family tragedy that was happening which of course was huge test it was really only afterwards that I realised the extent to which happens with the attack it's something that in terms of images has very much set the tone for the twenty first century really I think in terms of image culture and throughout the day and but I remembered deliberately not really watching too much of the footage because I felt like it would be like watching the time tonic sank at felt disrespectful and a way to just call this awful stuff that would happen I kept thinking actually back to when we went to the Imperial War Museum north and soul thurs because they have certain it's time anyway they had a section of the mine gold package from one of the towers I remember standing in front of this huge fragments of what was a huge building and crying Mindel that was this massive I don't even know what they're called but this huge thing that looks on bendable was mine go looking chewed up from this wreckage and I remember standing before it and feeling quite nauseous actually feeling quite sick because that's what it came from and the destruction arrived in the office of the life and everything the violence event that was what was coming back to me when I saw the footage was actually the more visceral thing are the kind of opposite interaction with the original TV coverage and that was one of those people who's just stuck to TV for about eight hours and afterwards when the BBC announced that that constant replaying of with which they have they done over levels will news for the rest of the day that it was wrong city nine AM in that room at the museum yesterday the kids are with this okay the what's in things like when Tony Blair was yeah your personal growth states that kind of stuff and they also give them %HESITATION to tell about stuff and you explain it and then there was the challenge of the stuff yeah and then there was none left and then there was the Israeli embassies there right in nineteen eighty and in every instance that was an image of people dying some of the on some of the writing them succeeding could somebody being carried out restriction on the case saying what's that what's that what's that she's being honest she's saying that some of the injuries are driving that happened but I can understand why off of it they just left and was a bit much but there was more I think the case against the faith the kids in the living room plus the safe in there from before us and we got through the whole night so they seen the whole thing actually %HESITATION that we some kids coming off quite quickly yeah because the other ones they thought it was a bit boring because of this old niece the tiny making stuff it was stuff like that so you would have to coronation princess Diana and prince Charles wedding and princess Diana's funeral yeah there is a lot of frivolous sports band briefly excessive truck today and both the not encouraged Margaret Thatcher I mean I would include on the casket expensive tragedy diner tells getting married because I was saying is that this this massive institution grab this young woman who did not have a and start to cheer up but did so in a very come pretty and blowing you away at the start of a would be a permanent discount Europe as it sat at this time I think her helping though not it meant that her youngest son could marry an American person of color and it not be a scandal or a massive bank day open twenty eighteen even the particular acts of her having married Charles of the particular well it's all part of the progression is nine it's the marriage but then it's also what's happened since then a fire sale has it sort of paving the way for the next generations to actually be honest about things and for the monarchy to change everything that came to light after she died with the indicated was these people were being stifled having suffocated by rectifications being placed upon them some cases nobody even placed upon them by the public just based on by the way to the institution yeah and what that was doing to these people psychologically was always the hideous so now first even contemplate the idea that if you don't want to be with somebody if I give my word that means you have to stay with them that just seems absurd and so now we have to be like her sense of Mari relatively late compared to all of them then they've actually had girlfriends before work they've chosen the person they really want to marry it's an indicator of change I think it's fair to say we both probably be on the market Republican side of stuff here it's nice to see it changing that's sort of a Republican on this context because they say it's not the Republicans sort of where I come from it's a public in the sense of you prefer Republic rather than a monarchy in any case yeah but he needs to order scana rid of all the borders anyway we didn't see anything in any of the screens the national science and media museum site makes it up to to do that then yeah maybe a part two yeah this one there was quite a lot of stuff I really wanted to play around with I don't know her but she liked it but from the way into the thresholds part there is a really nice that lacks vision by three D. fashion and cinema cinema yes and Brian may stuff because he was really into it what what is the story of scoping we are using a few of which is got two lines and a mount for a double header for the car yeah we put it together in face to create three dimensional images still photographs I did not notice about yeah on the stand who thinks he's co written hold back center using this equipment doctor visit No he finished a few years ago in general back this year okay talking about the other professor Brian Cox I was sure I mentioned right Brian mail so I thought I'd made you aware at least two things I have to point out first Ryan yeah you are generally more informed me and second I've got a bit of an awful memory thank you attempt to remember every detail of everything you tell me but sometimes the one I think is not so I thought that was great but I really wanted to see the pics of course services type of kids and I was it but it's the one tribe of kids laughed and ran off I took half a step before the next lot just raced out of my hands started planning the specs not even play cannot them properly use really is wasted on the young I think there was lots of instances of different types of interactions between parents and kids going on around them but that was just one place where there was some serious complaints it's awful to in this eleven twelve year old kid who probably autistic and he's done and the kids just did not want to be there anymore and the kids sibling there were two kids of squabbling there Sirius everyone just needs to decompress and go somewhere else and you know these are great places to go in kids and adults generally left them but we've got to that point one of the ones that strung out it is time just there is a family with a woman who lives and then %HESITATION I used to be the chair and anytime we start one of her kids one of her not that young kids was draped over locked cabinet right around the museum on this thing instead of using their functioning addicts and one of them pretty quick for him at the Sharjah this father for not letting him be the next one to get the wi right drawings the fellows even St this is the child was yelling that it was to be served yeah very good definition of abuse I just thought if I was your parent Beatty town he I think if you raise the battery Cherokee keep talking mate I got some new which I just by saying thanks to all this awful like it anyway anyway but I was stuff like that wasn't pleasant I have to say that many companies museum for its patrons but we must acknowledge that if it's a free museum the way that any free museum functions is by appealing to families with young kids who are gonna be buying stuff in the gift shop using the cafe putting money into things like the arcade games that's an income stream that the venue courts that relies on its part of the obstacle course he's going to think that %HESITATION three inaccessible to anyone that looks about eighty people will come I find it really shock and but then I'm thinking back to the day I spent with your children and the centralized in new castle in the February half term that was high even with kids I mean I would say that was based here that day and then you see him yesterday was but I didnt lines C. A. K. E. and rage okay I saw them all cooperating and being and breaks I didn't yes rather than each other but it wasn't and that I I think you'll find that his mind not sort of way that it was yesterday it was always nice great they're all excited that would stop it you each other how to do things and they would cooperate with each other these are relatively comparable institutions one is a science museum and one is a science and media museum center for life it's about that it's it costs a small fortune to get into I really wouldn't I would like to have salt that that wouldn't make a difference and I mean certainly any three museums but her being chan I go to Manny I mean that was just shocking behavior I can never say no I can bet you with some of the extent of this %HESITATION yesterday yeah you could see the other thing and that's normal but this was consistent the whole time we were there every kid we encountered almost his rage every kids from whatever background whatever color whatever Bella Dayne whatever religious background everything every single child yesterday okay great what about that one kid who we work with well yeah I said I'm doing this I gave my control so and you and she played against yeah but as I think we both quickly die and I think we need to get as one kid maybe this is a revealing comparison between the northwest and northeast possible but again I would really like to think no this is very narrow data that we've collected several figures I don't want to collect more so the next three weeks testing this that much time spent on kids well anyway there was some really cool stuff and no wonder lab so we have that crying to first that it was really really busy and then when we got back because we wanted to see if we can get into the film but we missed the start of it and I think there was no need access thought that meant that they wandered up was quieter so we have to go they can not some sort of property and it was really killed but then they all started to come back again and we could not stop stuff we could use a respectable further off of the off my head he said that was only a day after a month of a drop of water hitting the surface of a still pool the thing that was just you get a very the number of milliseconds and drop fulls and when the photo was taken by this fixed camera I'm quite fascinated with science because %HESITATION to briefly five analysts raised to see but it's a knowledge GLIAC too it makes it possible this is simply because the Nissan thresholds of perception one of the things is when you we see it all the time we see slow motion images of drops of water hitting something it doesn't it doesn't create ripples it creates a kind of little mini volcano which has an undulating Rick and then if it's intense enough fundraising room will each separate out into lots of tiny little drops which will hang in there for a moment and then they'll put down to and you don't see that that happens way too quickly to be perceived by our sincere right I'm quite obsessed with the fact that photography can see this thirty three can by being able to take a piece of time she's far too brief for us to perceive it as a distinct effect if there is a lot to do this unfriended them presents that it presents a site that we would never ordinarily see we also tend by looking at it for five seconds ten seconds a minute even we see things that we've seen all the time I was seeing them as if they last for longer than they actually do and this is the thing that tabloid press or say three because if they manage to get a photograph of somebody that just talking right and they blink while they talk and so if you have lots of photographs of them just this is the still photographs and took one of them is someone with their eyes closed in the mouth open looking like that trump looking I've seen yeah further the it's like using someone fainting of course people are doing this all the time anyway we're watching people do this which is not seeing people you get out and it's still fun to have slept on the cover of September newspaper and it makes it look like a person who was just talking cool in the case of Yemen Miliband just eating a bacon sandwich it makes it look like they don't know how to talk they don't have it either by consent which they don't know how to remain conscious and that basic deception the tabloids love to do it's something that we should all be media literate enough to go out that's clearly not an image of something that somebody did for any more than twentieth of a second it doesn't indicate that they don't know how to read the bacon sandwich okay and yet as a rule the majority of people okay maybe that's not correct but a frost number of people in this country in the same which is not that don't go that's a function of the yes it's an inter in moments so awareness of the consequences of using specific technologies is not high enough to make some general population yeah but I think having an exhibition like that where they can actually take that photograph they can take those that re injection businesses you would hope that that would communicate to somebody all right there's all this stuff that we count per se so here is a from yeah one specific aspect of this museum and of course everything that we're learning about here has some sort of a government function even contest by one of them was very I mean how long is she this intuition shout very how he's being able to understand the building isn't haunted that does just a particular acoustic arrangement that means that actors hang around the car yeah there's a helpful preseason home page they had the whole of mirrors the Stuart hall of mirrors of course you were so many children running through it back and forth bumping into the merits that you could actually easily tell where the measure because they were covered in thirty marks C. could spell the difference between bets clean surfaces off it's like air from not wanting to get through all the matters by looking at the ground I don't see the difference in the reflection also somebody's discarded package for what used to be a company's money and I was a bit of a talent one of the corners to be fat the big launch prince songs others are available the big large prints on the read on the way into the home of members said Wilkes lady with your hands and friends speak patrons being informed they should make three Sam Katz a cursor Darden and I threw it like nobody's business not signage for every thing that I can get invited to that right it's a unit of ours there was quite a deliberate decision of I'm going to show the human in the current interacting with this thing as I said the ten diverse and educated that does apply to some people and doesn't is box the total set instrumentalists quality of diverse answer collectively diverse humans in each case they are trying to the human interacting with the object was not necessarily a white yeah it was I suppose there is a range of ages of colors of abilities one of them was an old person with a guide dog there was one with a person in a wheelchair other people wearing turbans or people wearing his jobs there where kids several people adults people dressed in all manner of ways and all different shades that you can possibly be is a human being I was just really nice actually it was something that we notice or walking Ryan I just felt really refreshing what do you do you do when you do that is you start to establish a register of types of humans which you recognize and so even with such a big range the still tops of humans would you haven't acknowledged exist and that my preference for doing something like that would just be the stick figures yeah Hey at specific plans you've got skinny privilege sick people because they said they said they speak up actually I think the role fairly slim all these people so so if you still got a better skinny privilege there but not super model size which is also nice stick figures seventy great but skinny privilege to know I have quite a good time and someone third ones were actually you could feel scientists out like there is and I don't know if he did the one with the vibration from the floor those are just a cultural away from that one to ask you to do one of the things there was sand so no I didn't do them at a time when I had been on that for awhile but also that was the second time I was on it because the first time a small child fish me off and then almost immediately after and after crashing out to conduct services this time on the phone and have four different types of music and it leads to rock jazz band grass and classical you cheese one and it would play in the speakers and the speakers were actually underneath your fate on today's panel underneath they had little speakers at the sight seeing you could hear properly is out there at the base speakers under nice because we're trying to see how much space you could feel and of course the rock one was taken me back so the cakes a single tape when I was younger and a bit more sprightly you could say that coming up this edition that judge how far up your legs actually you could feel the vibration comes your pen with a vibration and the water quite a bit the changing the frequency and seeing how much the water would create the way thanks I didn't understand science affect well enough and I will look into it more because the launch you which was how full of water and laid horizontally for a long time like this off of water and that one and there's a diagonal join into that you talk about diagonal stretch there was a big speaker and so we did despite varying with volume and frequency you could fill that GM with alternate with lots of fundraising at and you could taste the frequency was sufficiently high no matter what the volume was you could not make any sort of installations in water but low you got frequency the more likely would be able to have some very regular looking vibrations in the water I couldn't understand what was happening what was he doing compressing the ad was it also seems compressing water because I do have a voice service no one is compressible as physician because it was quite a long shape and this is a net one and so it would be quite a big reaction one end and it be interesting to see how far along the water go before it petered alright and it would create bubbles in the water and they would travel and book along the top of that for awhile and it spits many nice shapes one thing that I was fascinated with was there was a room with lots of text that started about how if you shine colored lights on the code surfaces you make the services look very different from the conventional never these big paintings of carrots normal and the lights in the room a constantly changing from one color to another and they would never just white lights and the question about the parents we spoke color the parent wants his you don't know okay read or play or green and they had I don't know if he's still in it because they had the very first color photographs found was of a right McCall and expand a little bit behind the money she that because you think red lights said bring on the red of the feathers and the go away if men and not women the AV room at socks any time I went in to either of them just courageous with massive foundation problems we could rock up at this museum at lunch time had lunch and then winced yeah and so we were saying is that this is about yeah now it's ten o'clock in the morning the next day and the other would be the ideal time to go with other mediums to see if our contract before they go to Wales we can do non media ties things well it's got a really excellent website where you can actually see quite a lot of stick collections and that sets of the W. W. dot science and media museum dot org dot C. K. three the fate well I start website with all the information about everything that we've talked about it as well if you wanted to check it all right quite a lot of those exhibitions are on for a good part of the massive twenty eighteen Cimarron to loans of summer some of them are permanent seven American temporary things that will change but it's worth checking out what they've go out having been to a much sponsor previous incarnation this museum I must say I'm impressed what is the company that was ready hopefully the game's final be on for a while if he wanted to recreate part of your childhood and the case I had a legal consoles including hand held ones like the original gameboy that pulls gray Brechin have things we had one of those when I was young the Sega mega try today and sixty Fullerton the arcades radiant but we haven't really got go on any of them work checking I think maybe at a time when it's not a school holiday if you actually want to see stuff in general get a job which means that you go on breaks at times that on school yeah that's today's take a message it's great a lot but it's a great but the ones that we kinder just straight we're not those great kids unfortunately they were very very rare exceptions to the rule thanks very much for listening and I hope that discussion was useful do you really recommend checking I to me CM if you ever find yourself in Bradford I've been reflected in a safe investment in editing this episode I feel like I've come across is probably a bit negative Anna certainly that's not the intention and I think it was yes we ended up %HESITATION but you could probably tell we had quite a stressful time because I still can't get over the volume of really freaked at people and children we happened to encounter and I would like to hope that that's not typical of this museum but it's probably the worst I've ever experienced in any museum regardless of that there were some discussions I was a bit worried that I was coming across as may be too harsh operates the photography I thought really hard about it and I thought well I'm gonna leave and a lot of what I've said because I've reflected on that and it's a ruler for credit an anonymous tip go well actually I don't actually think this work is locked gates and it's not personal to an artist and while I'm genuinely very pleased at this person's got the opportunity to be funded by the arts kinds of anger and man that's a really fantastic achievement and it's great to see what can happen when people get goes it stuff I think my frustration as as a try to convey that there's such a huge discrepancy between what the arts council of England is prepared to support and the outer lock of support that's happening in Northern Ireland right now I am not sure if the all star orchestra or demonic more representation across the board I certainly needed and worse fighting for and that doesn't mean that anybody else house of a site that's the important thing to stress so I think there's bigger issues around are to funding and art follow UP that are worse proving and Terry in greater detail so I think I'm going to try to seek appropriate people to get on the podcast and speak could bite that sort of thing because it's something that I think is really important today US and to discuss but I don't feel terribly knowledgeable by art finance and business and the markets in that sort of thing it's something I'm learning a bite I don't feel like I have the authority to really get into it by myself if I come across as a bit snappy N. might remember if you see my response to use of photographs it's because well those were the things that I was getting from the photographs and high they were produced that's from me being somebody who's studied photography pretty extensively has a PhD in film and visual culture and has spent many years learning and teaching film the statics just to say that I'm not being snapped bait that's what I can see from the images that those were the decision making processes at play there just to say as well that even if I find a topic to be fairly frivolous I absolutely do you think that there should always be space for the frivolous I think it's just a matter of taste and exhibitions but people watching football matches is not to my taste but it will be to the taste of other people and certainly locals here big football fans and supporters of their local team and who am I to take that away from them I am aware of all those issues and I think there's probably a whole other discussion to be had as well %HESITATION but audiences and consumers of culture I'm a big listener of winter tan meant that mark Kermode and Simon Mayo film review show and very frequently their discussions by audience behaviors and the cinema something I feel very strongly about each is other people's performances behaviors and sentiments and being mindful of other people's experience especially when they have had to pay money for something but I think even regardless of that this was a museum that was free to enter and and it was free to say most of the exhibitions but that shouldn't mean that children get to touch me to push me out of the way and it shouldn't mean that we have to tolerate it really awful rude behavior I think there's an issue around sonic spaces while as I described in the risk children shouting to the point where they were red in the face at their parents possibly this is a wider parenting saying and here my again to have an opinion on not I am not a parent it's probably a I cannot relate to larger issue %HESITATION rinds consent and shared spaces respect and consideration my lan shared spaces culture should be for everyone and that should be shared experience and at same time we shouldn't be silencing each other either that's just basic respect Manisha there's bigger discussions to have her on those kinds of things the idea of having to share space while not preventing other people from engaging in something I don't know if there's a general sense of entitlement that children have set everything is four and a bite them and no one else can you do something and that you don't have to wait your turn you can just go and patient adult off something I was being physically touched and paste by these other human beings but because they're young human beings are not legal adults I feel like I can't say anything to them so I think there's probably more to taste all right there with those issues so I just wanted to be clear that I'm aware of those things and I do worry about it hi some of the things we say come across I just hope we're pitching it right but I also know that we can always get everything right and everybody's constantly learning and constantly improving we also have to stand by our responses to things today if you're still listen thanks so much for that me same apace and car find a few things I'll leave you with the original ending I recorded for this podcast I hope you find the discussion ready useful and interesting and to tackle it the science and media museum swept sites it's really thorough and you can see lots of stuff from their archives on there an updated information about what the current expressions are in the future a reminder that we're trying to make this party broads and we're really trying to get casts on and if you're right there listening and you're working on something and you're ready and trusses and a particular aspect of something that could be considered as audio condor facial culture please get in touch via Twitter you can find me out P. E. A. R. and also you can email audio visual cultures that's all one word all lower case at G. mail dot com not until we get a proper website and app property managing sick that organized so any money that's received by Apache on or donated on pay pal dot me forward slash P. E. I. prior all of that's going towards improving my equipment and getting the resources they need online to be able to pick the podcast on iTunes and more accessible websites for you I've already got a linkedin RSS feed on a cast I'm not sure how that's working out for any of you but do you let me know and if you're right there you're nesting and cheery feeling like I'm pretty and after all the stuff that's probably trade and to give me a shirt if you know any better that would be so much appreciated if there's any other ways of getting things right there without having to spend the money until then if you go to my PhD on P. it's you'll see my funding goals and the things that I am aiming to see of up to date to sustain the podcast I work freelance so I don't have a regular income and I'm trying really hard to make every inch of educational resources from my teaching materials a podcast has taken up a lot of time because I'm pretty persnickety about editing it quite a lot I'm editing I Olean knowing a miss and silences and reputations and things as much as I can to try and make it smoother listening experience I might give your raw file at some point just to show you how much I actually added alright any financial support would be gratefully received because I'm trying to make videos and screen casts and trying to work on more publications as well for broader audiences fan nation academic audience that I've been writing for before I'm ready Pasha by broadening education and and I feel very strongly that everybody should have access to all kinds of education so that's what I'm attempting to date while I've got the mains and the more means I get from crowd funding no longer I can keep going anyway enough about that thank you so much for lessons thanks again to the end if you have it's been great to find some really nice comments on Twitter for machines and colleagues have given it a go and that's a slow burn we're starting off very small but I hope that this will build a really nice community thanks for sticking with me if you need it S. very welcome I hope you do stick with this much up to you next time
<Paula Blair> Hello and welcome to Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast exploring sound and image cultures. For our tenth episode were delighted to be joined by linguist Geoff Poole discussing with Andrew and me his favourite film, Orson Welles's F for Fake. Many thanks to everyone who's been retweeting, sharing, pledging and supporting the podcast and all the ways; all the things that you're doing are really helping to get it off the ground. I'll be back after the chat with more information but it's a fairly long one so we're going to get stuck straight in. Hope you enjoy it and I hope it's useful. Geoff, if you'd like to just tell us who you are. <Geoff Poole> I'm Geoff Poole. I guess my Twitter bio says that I'm a soi-disant lecturer in the philosophy of linguistics at Newcastle University in the School of English and I guess that's about as accurate as anything really. I'm kind of not here in any professional capacity with respect to film or the teaching of film just as an unbelievably huge fan of this film. <PB> Right, well that's all highly relevant to the nature of the podcast and the nature of which is it's very broad and borderless and messy so I'm really keen to talk to people are fans of something in particular and anything broadly or vaguely to do with audio and/or visual cultures and of course linguistics is very much part of that. Probably when we're talking about F for Fake we might want to get into linguistics but also film language, how these might marry up, and if you're from a philosophical background, well is there a way to marry that with film philosophy and the ontology of truth and lies, fakeness and all those sorts of things? So there's quite a number of areas we can get into. <GP> Yeah I should say this where I guess the soi-disant comes in insofar as a my actual background is in formal linguistic theory and syntactic theory but I've always been really interested in that intersection of the philosophy of language, philosophy of the mind, philosophy of science, and that's actually what I've been teaching pretty much for the last five or six years in particular, plus syntax for a long time, so I should say that I'm not a professional philosopher in that sense. <PB> Is anyone? What does that even mean? <laughing> <GP> That's a fair point. At least I don't have a piece of paper that says that I know something necessarily that philosophy think of PFA haven't well I. DS but road office that is just like the scarecrow you know I don't have a brain but I do have a diploma we're watching after fake because we had a bit of a Twitter chat yeah an image of course of miles from the phone as your Twitter profile picture what is set up by the phone that really grabs your interested I think it's the kind of I suppose maybe not surprisingly it's the subject matter and the approach in that it actually reminds me not to start off on too highbrow plain it actually reminds me very much of the dialogues of Plato in that it wants to raise philosophical issues but it does that not by having a treatise a okay here I am Plato I want to tell you about what justice is here now let me explain it to you it's actually using the idea of a dialogue to do that and I think what's really interesting about this film is the way in which Orson Welles is taking his particular medium which is film and some of his particular interest actually around editing in particular and using that to create a thing which addresses even if it doesn't come to any firm conclusions which again with most the dollars to put it down it gives you a view on this particular philosophical issue and I love the fact that it does that I love the way it does it too the whole film you have Orson Welles with that kind of twinkle in his online very much the whole time again that's another possibly under appreciated feature of the platonic dialogues as well the way in which a lot of time Socrates is both joking and being serious at exactly the same way one of the same sort of moment and I feel like this captures that a lot so that's it and that's really the reason that I find it interesting I guess also I've also been really interested you know one of the only times in my life when I was doing anything that you might call a kind of art project %HESITATION says like naturally when I was not writing my PhD stalling and avoid doing anything separate my PC I was really interested in doing audio collage very influenced by people in the states and in Canada like John Oswald and like Negativland nailing a particular very much do not just tell stories but they have projects that have a narrative is entirely made up of collage audio samples of it and so I think to there's that element as well that I recognize in terms of my own interests he's doing the same thing but just visually though in a largely audio way that is to say you know he's cutting and pasting the particular images to create some of these counterpoints and whatnot it's not really the visuals that he's interested in it's the particular audio so much of its carried by his voice is heard was wonderful to listen listen to most read the phone book she just lovely to sit there and let him kind of wash over you that's fantastic I was wondering about his voice in check here and here expertise of the language what you may ask of his voice in general it's kind of hard to know I mean in certain respects to the extent I have any professional reaction to that it's a reaction of I'm not actually really quite sure and I'm happy to leave it to in some sense well ironic in this context the experts it's a point that Chomsky always makes about the kind of role of linguistic theory and what its role perhaps at this point in time is with respect to other wider issues about communication or not so it makes the analogy to theoretical physics and says okay well it's true that for example the reason why a bridge stands up and doesn't fall down sure on some level that is ultimately rooted in the elements of subatomic physics and quarks but it might actually not be the most helpful way to talk about bridges talking about it at that level and indeed if you want to get a bridge that is not going to fall down probably a theoretical physicist is not we want to talk to you want to find a bridge builder because they're the people that have the expertise with the thing at that particular level maybe it's just intellectual cowardice some of syntactic theory is just hard enough it's like I don't even want to think about the heart of the questions about that %HESITATION beyond that look even more difficult but I think from a professional point of view if he as he did was super super famous for his voice over work and just so many people react to him in that way there's clearly something going on and I think clearly that ultimately is rooted in something to do with language and his use and again I'd specially not the anthologist for phone addiction I'm not sure what that is I suppose I shouldn't say we don't know because I don't know that we don't know I don't want to consult colleagues there is just something incredibly placing it by the combination of words that he seems to effortlessly creates and then the way he says them you're hanging on every word no matter what he's talking about right I think that's true I mean indefinitely the story that he tells about being a teenager in Ireland which is part of it was true and that is part of his biographies you can very easily see he was anything even remotely like he is in the film how the state would be natural place for him to be he has that gift you know as you say of making everything sound stage G. and fall through even that isn't necessarily the case and everything's a performance even when heat maybe or selling interest you get ten fifty I might not play in all performs resort ADR does well yeah for some of the concerns and some points he's done it very well there is in the in the case that that some of the production forty hours that means just to clear and crisp and seems to be spoken so studio is our government's it just doesn't match it but I like that obviousness of the editing it's very reflexive so it looks like it's badly done by celebrity badly done because we know from a very young age he knows exactly how to put together and has already installed on the server lauded as the best films of all time cayenne and some might have some competition for his first two films are masterpieces he knows what he's saying he knows that he's coughing at the table the tiled baths my work is that my fingerprints on network and that's what I think part of the fun aspect of it as well that in the context of magic tricks illusion and misdirection which is obviously again from the kind of initial introduction of the end a major element to this what I like very much is precisely the fact that you do appear to see the things like the adults that are quite right and that this is a very clearly shop and studio when you supposedly across the street from you know the desert in Nevada but the way in which that's actually just more misdirection makes me think of stuff like Derren brown where he talks about the various elements of his work being in or have whatever it is I see guys patter I forget what it is a psychology sleight of hand showmanship psychology whatever and then he will occasionally give what appear to be explanations but in fact those aren't explanations those are just more misdirection so he will make reference to the psychological theories or suggest that something akin to neuro linguistic programming which is get complete B. S. is behind it also suggests that that again was a say it's it's more misdirection and that's what I think is interesting about these a way in which you see the editing room you see these things that look sloppy but you see nothing that he doesn't want you to see attention I'm not David Thompson's biography of while he talks about it well you can do all this research you can get all the facts about somebody's life but you still need to tell a story and then actually thinking back to when I dread it's Charlie Chaplin's autobiography and you compare that with the many many many biographies written by hand hi my cheese and that list because he's trying to tell a good story he's a storyteller he's telling you something that's a little bit trace and it's a little bit from to say it's made up because he's trying to grip you with this story and pick beautiful works together there's quite a lot of thoughts going on and have her fate as well we are doing very part comes to ninety remember people can't see it I want to point out that there's quite a different range of our wellness in the room going into watching this film because I hadn't seen it before hello you've seen it I think on that for a few years ago and just forces everything ten was one of the first DVDs that I bought when I finally got a DVD player and it was the American criteria F. for fake release the undergraduate degree but I did it was created by people who was sticking films like this forever it wasn't from the grave is a consistent he's agreeing musculature but the people were into showing and stuff that was really post modern metal scrap eighteen nineteen so I'm surprised this didn't at some point crop up if you could just not alienating well actually it is it's actually you know that's interesting really it is it it's post modern in that way but precisely I think doesn't it can not be a literature person I know very little about the big and it doesn't have that slightly distancing very kind of theoretical dimension to it that sometimes people I think bounce off of a little bit especially students I did have some degree and never came across it and no study sites there I think party looking back because I did documentary modules and I did have a guard much as new salata crossovers between the sea and I ended up teaching these at the same time and the teaching modernism and documentary the same time there's a huge amount of crossovers but this some high even falls between expose things at the same time but it's not documentary enough and it's not up on guard and no it's not pushing you away and now it's engaging need two months to be high art ironically I think that's where the twinkle in his eye comes in again because he knows what he's saying you feel like he made his masterpieces so young and very quickly it was pissing off the studio so we're hiring him he wouldn't play ball he was already breaking up all the rows and he never ever played the game and you get the sense that he cared if he'd wanted to you could have random stuff and if you wanna take it back I just wonder if you get the sense that he loves the chaos he thrived off its own K. all signed his films have so much order to them I mean this family's tight to tight eighty five minutes there's no baggage Anatoly no six accurate stating he's economical in the editing he could have spun a yarn that was three arsenal but he doesn't do show a lot going on in the next couple of decades the sixties and seventies for he's promised all this money to people and he's run off and he's got all these partially me approach Jackson come getting finished Nicholas Massey private life that's not ready half price today he's sort of a walking disaster area and yet he's so together and organize the creation of his art he's still a conundrum I think he doesn't fit even the categories already defy categorization he refuses to go into any boxes it's an overlooked film in many ways some basics on what reports this is the last finished project I'm just looking up the details of some of the people involved so as a parent how may I assist the horror the horror I think it is yeah he killed himself two years after his phone camera because the Spanish authorities had decided to hand it over to the front of our face the playful I lied to everyone are you doing over these paintings and there's no negative consequences that has a kind of underbelly which is that it did have negative consequences including but the place where often and you know perhaps in killing himself to try and avoid them he was it's completely overreacting maybe that you become the author of the south he becomes self defining I think the film sales service no I he's got this like I say but it's all these other names that he's a top shame he's been all these other people and maybe that's the one self defining thing has lost her eyes himself so he can take I don't know and you do get a little bit of a window into that part of it because there are the bits towards the end of the hoary section where it actually isn't kind of all sweetness and light and the dinner parties and where he's talking about having spent a month in prison in Evita and he's clearly trying to put a good face on the all these people came to see me and the judge the judge he said he said I was a good person but there's clearly there I think under current of some of the implications for himself personally in terms of what he's done Canada's performance is sold what's on the surface and what's going on underneath it's very different also and David Thompson's biography of files didn't go into any details but he was saying that not long after this %HESITATION Franco's dictatorship and hands and forcing myself to spend quite a bit of time in Spain has a has a yeah I think there he lived in France but he lived in Europe but he always had a very strong affinity for Spain that comes through that Hemingway references it was a fan of bull fighting which is a little bit disappointing and he did as well if I remember rightly one of his TV projects was a travel log type series that did regions of Spain and may be in the fifties I was get it time wise confused with another thing which maybe is one of the only places to look for antecedents for this release obvious antecedents is the Orson Welles sketchbook series of things that he did for the BBC %HESITATION yes where he would be drawing and telling various kinds of stories that would relate to the drawing he was doing and illustrating various characters and stuff like that you felt a great affinity for Spain did spend a lot of times they live in the traffic yes I've been driven well I don't I mean what should look these things up in France with him in this film I think not long after that if that doesn't go into any detail certainly not in the factory rep today and I can't remember several years ago but he ends up moving back to the yes in the mid seventies or so yeah I think that's right because Europe is shifting grind anyway so the conditions aren't ready for him anymore so he goes back and he never complete the phone again yeah that's right we need some of it wasn't his fault in the sense that at least one major project which was the deep actually his leading actor died in nineteen seventy three that was one of the projects that he was working on in the late sixties and effectively that lead actor appears in F. for fake he's the person in the airport train station whatever it is exactly when they put a code are gonna make her disappear and put her in the suitcase %HESITATION he's the person at the beginning I think well that process yeah so this is Lawrence and somebody rather %HESITATION live been working with another project some of it certainly was palling lock in that sense but I think some of it is because he doesn't get slightly caught up in the paying the bills in a slightly different way so instead of acting in these various European each way co productions he starts doing you know very famously his wine commercials and stuff like that which is the way that life growing up in the seventies in America that's my first memory Orson Welles are of the wine commercials that he was doing and then also the Muppet movie of course because he has now he's a canyon about the movie and I think he did voice overs on quite a lot of cartoons yeah that's right so I grew up hearing his voice quite a bit and then when a couple there and I realized he was I thought well right that must have been somebody who sounded like him to be playing I can force the most part it no it was actually him I was just looking on the extensive wikipedia page or somewhere else just to see if I where I was when he died he was back in the states yeah it's like someone's just transcribed over the data come from somebody H. despises entirely possible but the phone about more on the subject contrivance she was it seems his partner at the time although he was still married to his third wife circus seemingly an on going fast the name or your car there was a name that wells gave to her yeah it's %HESITATION yesterday evening which is funny because right at the very end even as he's saying Hey you know right at the end when the sort of I guess it's spoilers but people will know that you know is the %HESITATION Hey by the way remember that promised I was going to tell the truth for an hour well that hour and seventeen minutes ago in this fall a lot even then he actually makes his point of saying %HESITATION your coat or that's her real name when it's snowing yeah okay when it isn't well I guess then that gets to do a separate conversation which we can %HESITATION about what is reality right if that's effectively her stage name has that become her real name but the way that the when I was thinking about that earlier I was that it made me think of the problems that %HESITATION Michael Keane's preacher was Michael Cain was it not to the venue like literally a year ago had to legally change his name because he never changed from his original name and was just getting such a hassle at airport security in this day and that you know but I know you're not this guy you're Michael king movies no no no stage name people never really this is my number two Michael Caine in his thanks I think it's like the last year maybe did that but sorry process actually I think we're doing a session which my husband Paul Costa Jeff but someone is now about my accent it was born Gabrielle Maximilian level as and I talked to named Max and then went on to make his name in the park stage of our lives are full his daughter was raised as Moreland server is not affected we became my dentist before his demise had kids if it's a name you use in all dealings even if it's not one of the best to forget it is practically speaking your name I cement on postmodernism from think about this one is a lot recently because people keep talking about how the different paths to society and I think the fact that people are now claiming this is actually evidence that we live in a post post truth society because people are able to go we're going on to all of the shop and that's a bad thing first post modernism that was post truth in the sense of having the line it is very massive evidence recently we've come out the other side of postmodernism start to realize that there is such a thing is verifiable truth and that they may have been some abuses that were facilitated by the idea that everything's just convention that we come up with a second by second look at this one seventy three I was struck on the special personal I think was one two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven about fourteen different regards in which this is repose one on the first right was the host and talking generalize website if the website disagrees of what it is some call it a docu drama some call it the country SA I can see one because it has elements of that style did voiceover off and also to the community to explaining circumstances to you but I'm not voice ever hands over to the characters involved in interviews and then they answering a question by interviewer they then voice over footage of themselves as a policy or themselves interacting with that happened we'll have to find out exactly how to start I think is a mechanic and I actually do interference or they do interact a little bit worse points which I also love where Orson Welles will actually when there's a pause in the person is like trying to think of what to say there's a couple places where wells as a voice over says the word and then the person on film producers we know the time and you know this is very kind of I don't know the importance of predictable I love that you get that playing with it so I suspect number one this film for me was to have a constant avalanche of people talking and that characterize the Allen which was genuine it was only during the seventeen minutes off hours which result invented thing about the cancer whether it see any significant people not talking with the vast majority of the house was Constance token and it's exhausting because we used to watching films way even if it is documentary this poses for the option to just walk something as opposed to taking what we've just been told but that was never you're just gonna be in molesting language language is going to be I came with its own rules that doesn't affect anything else well it's going to be a computer measurement technology rather than reference I suppose it's because the fact that it's entirely up around questioning the idea of authenticity and all is a big personal thing as well well the one that I found myself thinking does this question %HESITATION they're both interested enough to visit just specifically question one view of Los R. should be even more specifics of the early twentieth century it's just that it's a great man thing but if something's every good piece of work and it's by Joe nobody thanks for nothing into something six activists say but it's fine yeah it was despite Modigliani than it's worth fifteen twenty feet I think the point is me is quite late on in the film but it's time to the art market it's not a fight the folly as cultural objects that's actually trying to achieve a unique that's pain felt by the art market it's a name that has currency while spying on that very much because his name has currency isn't as a criticism of the farm markets having turned the names of specific people into brands I just supposedly guarantors of quality when I know yeah it's one of those things I suppose where the criticism and it's a celebration of it at the same time because again he's cashed in on not it's a chink the whole years been able to live off for the film industry shares many similarities said not playing up the park markets names are sellable films are marketed by the starter actor or the star producer for the stock options so it's all about marketability want to touch tuning in so the fact that a forger ticket actually creates totally brand new age paintings even not even copies but just something and the side of this question because he knows how to do it costly knows how to tell mommy or mommy or the everyday fans be able to sell it Terrick our three with them thinking that it's radio got tied up by the market as the talent for creating arch if the simulacrum that's not both J. R. dot com is the simulation which is that to persuade you that the rest of the world Israel so I have no words right now yeah and then X. specially with that story of those twenty two the paintings of lawyer Kodar the end of the story is that will you contact the originals because we burned them so if they take the house in order to know that these done that was put into the mouth of what occurred is completely invented grandfather was quite revealing when he said to please tell me I'll be able to give something new to the world and in time you cast a period my I was able to invent something authentic about that because our brands that people didn't know about please let me have to act as a Texan here about four years as actually creating something new well they're wonderful just don't just paint their own paintings are stars and the fact it's because if the Russian involved in doing something which is adding yeah and the families they mention he tried to but he didn't have imagination is there's coffee this person has no particular unique world view and therefore has nothing to say yeah is their own but clearly is able to through the vehicle of other people's styles or whatever create things that are similar enough to be taken to be almost not even just sellable us obviously a large component of it but that even the larger kind of this is that a question if your door you can produce a Matisse which is as aesthetically valuable and beautiful as an original Matisse and for the same reasons then what actually is the difference between the two I was not saying that part where he was performing panting limitation and he's explaining them to taste didn't have the confidence to follow the line stay so I have had to pause I've had to stop and have to jerk you know that kind of thing and he actually performs in the air hi E. J. MIT sign that performance site and building of these other artists is really fascinating and then sourcing while star he is someone who he is I'm not sure has always been an actor even as a con man or whatever he's always acting as though he's performing he is someone who has made a living of pretending to be other people so what's the difference between the makeups and someone on the phone the firm also wanted to I didn't cry if you count agrees all of because IT buttons there's something because there was found forgery and then there was also the canvassing hoax about Howard Hughes the word hoax was used quite a few times and it was on his private headlines and it was the name of that book that Irving himself wrote I think that was then adapted into a film later on about the older we get the Richard Gere film I think two thousand six I remember rightly I called the host which is the story of different Irving's hoax with respect to the Howard Hughes biography so this hoaxes and those forgeries and then there's fakes and then as well as his own I'm just gonna lie to you for seventeen minutes at this from an instant coffee and the call lash reply I mean in the sense that some of our shops for replays of others yeah is that's what's that again and it's very quiet and very often you've got the shot playing or repaying part of TV screen that's within the frame system many levels mediation efforts because because this is it's awesome while still in his narration no as voice of of but I was on the screen download him sitting behind an existing desk surrounded by cans of film rather cartoonish looking kinds of cell phone in my pocket he typed up as if he's editing the film that you were saying about point and there's a whole history of manta films where some of the footage is somebody editing the film yeah yeah that was actually one of the things I was hoping to learn from people who actually know what sorts of things is to what extent what are the antecedents if anything for F. for fake and even what sorts of things in a more modern sense might be comparable in even just trying for me what to think about what are the sorts of things that could possibly fall into this category there are certainly documentaries that are very centered on the documentarian things like Michael Moore Roger and me or Morgan Spurlock super size me that sort of thing and even going back I was also thinking about things like Michael Kaelin's around the world in eighty days here is and I guess the workers world which preceded that which I've never seen so I'd know it only because he refers to it in around the world in eighty days but that seems clearly different from what's going on here you know this is not in any way about wells and some kind of journey that he's on and such so it didn't seem like that and the only thing I could almost think of really were somethings like maybe some of Michael Moore's later documentaries the ones that are more documentary essay types classically something like bowling for Columbine but again knowing very little about either documentary films or oven guard films in the state trying to think of what would have come before aside from generic fourth wall breaking because of course that's the thing I mean in a way this is like a very radical fourth wall breaking that's going on in this actually are their films that you could even say somehow that might plausibly be connected to the city's building honor would have known about or I would say so well who's always very well create optimum is going on in the nineteen twenties nineteen thirties and from large say in Europe more generally but certainly in France a lot of the cinematography and syncing can is a tribute to him as the first ever T. stay focused but actually Sharmarke was doing that ten years before in France in terms of fake documentary there's a solid history about in France the surrealists were already doing it respond while Spanish director who was living mostly in France his collaborations with Salvador Dali as I how about one mile me it's a phone call from the thick grass and that's one of the earliest fake documentary so it was a documentary that was in the style of the child log but it's completely fabricated so you've got things like this authoritative voice over and over several versions you Spanish version in that an English language version and so once you've got that customers should avoid difficulty we call it saying this little girl had this wrong with her three days later she was dead it's difficult going on making a mockery of those types of films that were colonial foreigners type things because this is coming off the back of her apart from her days to Monica north a few years after that and that sort of thing so there's a history that shows eagle who is a young filmmaker entrance and he died very young so he only made four films the hazardous couple of films where highly experimental documentaries his first ever film was a proposed a niece there's no narration inside and found with music but it's the editing is the narrator and it's making commentary on all of the rich Porsche what people and the size of France and see what they have been put on the boxes long traditions of African perforation and slavery and that sort of thing and also high they're continuing to keep dying that pairs topping and some long history of revolutionary politics and from most immediately those are springing into me as early examples I would say he's probably well aware of those kinds of phones because he knows what's going on in France and Spain I think and the twenties and thirties and forties Iran I was thinking about the FAA from it's hard to know how to describe it because there's many descriptions and I cannot see very messy harm minutes documentary but it's now on its own garden it's not often that depends how you look at it so thanks to I finish Bardez more recent documentaries the cleaners and I am going to size and put you here because mine's Sam Smith out if the light the power button they would be described as half a film so personal but the bakers I'm not you've maybe got that one person carrying with them that's coming from a personal perspective but it's a part of a much bigger issue here way and with them and the topic is their journey through it the principal is some rises so does the phone it is what it feels like to investigate an actual real world issues not the real issue so I was very skinny direct investigating the role of issue and make it sound right to character telling you about this obsession that he or she has spoken it's like after fake it's the actual active making the film as the investigation and days having meaning to aviation fund as possibly being used for activism and some way it's probably worth checking into Chris marker's body of work this was another seven to citizens would be surveyed montage is from one of the things that predates the supposed discovery and if it comes off the principal of what the service usually meant by motorists within school cultures affect where two chefs by being juxtaposing time great impression which is not evident in each show on its own as a person to do the conflict to the tee shot sometime before that was even discovered after some previous discovery discovery again focus because he went off Envestnet the times or will use this principle that is known as rather creative geography %HESITATION but to talk with me and it's where a script what we have done a lot for two people I suppose one of the two people who really want because she's our looks at that point it does have a lines outside a building in central Newcastle and Jeff does his lines outside a building in the centre Sunderland as if you were talking to each other face to face and then just to cross cut between two thanks for the directions were matched up and fly right above the fearlessness that doesn't exist in my world and that happens in at least two points from probably will probably marry at but definitely obviously and a couple paces and you've already mentioned the hotel in Las Vegas yeah that's that's very clear yeah the one is the opening sequence with walking through the streets well I was claiming that he got how to walk around and then we signed with tonight's network team for free but none of the sharks included a person turning that had within the same shop to avoid walking on the street that stuff was old clearly into complex SO maybe those men would hang on to look at while walking down the street the civics are Hussein math and the other one was what seems like a conversation between Irving and the hoary about whether delivery signs the work his fake so not yet because they were saying they were assigned and who's going to sign anything this is one of those instances we go all right one of the two of us is mistaken and none of us are going to miss it so this is this constant repetition of both of these characters they were assigned I never signed any of them there was a I never signed anything and it goes back and forth several times as if they're the same morning having that conversation but I actually punched two different entities wells is feeding into the creative powers of editing that's K. if even in Citizen Kane or school so she would not have to take classes right how does creativity conversation I think getting much in camera editing and camera montage this is the work of somebody who is hauntingly similar to this letter saying the sensor just having read a lot of it comes and gives you the sense of being aware of the finer points okay heard theoretical and applied field making it together yeah I don't know whether it was just that I had by that point fallen so far down the rabbit hole actually watching it even wondering in some of those sequences where it's apparently Clifford Irving being edited by the original filmmaker France all right when they went back with a look at that wall that wall looks to for the film stock looks different but I don't think they're actually in the same room and I don't know how much of that is appropriation because of course I don't think we've mentioned the origin of this in that there was originally the frontal reckon back was in the middle of they have an incomplete documentary about Aamir nori and then meets wells and wells takes it over and re purpose is that in large measure so it may even have been that those shots were shot at different times of like that maybe even with him repeating the questions that he had asked because he had only one camera on the shoot when he was doing it and so has to do the Irving interviews and his response to separate he did get the sense that there are times and you think this person knows that they're being filmed for a straight documentary this isn't intended for what was going to become sound says while it's fresh in my mind after the montage of all the man making there's quite a lot of him they every next stop for years and for some person it's ready the party is now and while this is so well known feminist unreconstructed dimension to some of this in terms of sexual politics of it although if I remember rightly or a code are claims that date which is part of some other project as well says was actually that she imagine there being a feminist dimension to what she was doing I've heard this expression again you know I'm a kind of white American and middle age man's I'm possibly the least oppressed person on the face of the earth right so I have no insight into this issue in any way I don't know whether at least one person I guess believes that %HESITATION takes that view seemingly is somehow is long as you're complicit in your exploitation that that's somehow okay yeah I don't it's difficult because it's for the raises the question of who say exposure because she seems there have been a very wealthy person and from what I've been reading she always kept her independence when she was involved with while she was had a room how ice sheet of rather on many things I think she didn't fall into the trap that many of the other people and if I fell into a into given that the thing that was fun and we've recently seen in the case of three ten hours of walking in New York City as a woman yeah I'm just gonna have me in public and I would be a record things like that you know the one where it was done was a twenty fourteen and it was the actual switch on over this he did it she was heckled and move while much street harassment all the usual stuff stalking new style K. Fodor free ages the stock was bought back segment was full it wasn't framed in such ways to indicate harassment I know everybody Sterrett pretty woman what this thing was supposed to go look at how lacking in control they spend on this model which is that this is what you do if you wanna have some stretches of somebody and has some ability to persuade his fears that it's okay for the phone to also allege that its female participants have a scene in which you fool some of the characters which is ridiculously characters for doing the latching that means that I'm actually really really need to go now immune to accusations of yourself latching signal lectures much as you want I'm not picturing the seventy minutes a made up story with way of walking around the little village in whatever works is because the song I think that place doesn't exist that's an entirely made up name I'm sure there's a real religion the photographs that they show you but I don't think that place even actually exists I'm supposed to be in from yes in the south of France and Germany not she's become more and more naked and I think that the when she's gambling benefits from the streets later in the day wearing a blue dress yeah yeah morning huge pieces believed transmission line must be said that was as close as you can get at this point is to just showing somebody frontally completely naked others also objects where she was completely naked back from the bank for just kind of hunched over so she was covering everything and if I remember the DVD commentary right I think she does say she's on the the criterion commentary that she is naked under that blue mass of whatever it was kind of weird because I'm trying to remember the story of course I will remember it properly but it was shot in one of the towns in France that sounds a little village has a lot of pilgrims because there's a spa or there is some reason I was %HESITATION visitation virgin Mary or something %HESITATION hundred they were like trying to do that shot while she's running that and there's like pilgrims going on the way to the train station as a whole is complete it's interesting that they choose to castle to do this right because of course what is the date of the female stark said he believes in the parts not a likeness of her so it's like their idea of the salacious painter with his naked woman the story about cancer the reason it seems to me at least one wells came up with this particular story with these particular details is that one of the things that seems to trouble him I thought the dories phenomenon is that if you have this painting was found someone's acted and it's verified by the expenses being a character and then another one time's up and it's also verified as being a case number the first one Israel and second one is the oldies that is no way of time there's this uncertainty which is really frustrating it seems to be the same striving was some section and I think the reason from sizes because start with the car service because there is a way in which you can actually result if the office does happen to still be alive you can hold them into a room and go did you paint packs please resolve this for stars like a fantasy eventually being able to resolve questions about welcome to stay although I suppose you could also tell us anything about how even Picasso himself it said that some of his own paintings didn't count as ten years yeah yeah capable of painting of a fat because they're fake because so as well yeah that's interesting and then that gets back I think to one of the things that I think at the heart of it well talk about at the very end with the levitation magic trick again where he then finally does talk a little bit about himself as a charlatan and what that means and getting back to the point you're making and %HESITATION about what distinguishes these various types of forgeries and lines that are going on clearly his claim from the end is that forgeries that are pointing at some kind of truth telling a lie to reveal something true that that's hard and like that okay and that somehow aiming at truth in some way %HESITATION revealing truth in some way is supposed to be part of what's distinguishing these various classes of people doing various kinds of hoaxes and forgeries and stuff like that the ones that are charlatans which he takes to be a good thing you know the ones who are tuning lies in the service of some further treatments are okay but perhaps not others it's coming up because there's some stuff we've wells during some I'm a little more stations because the classic thing with big stage comes right is that the kinds right is not claiming to have magical powers becomes or is just not telling you how they do that deceptions so it's an open line and the lines to you but isn't actually trying to see if the line is intended to deceive and that's a phrase I borrowed from an alley cinema starring put Joe camp is great and that seems to be a model that respects to hold on to for the rest of from and thank our case and forgery on forgery when this massive amounts of money involved still it's a large enough intended to deceive his line tends to do something else being very interval to this phone we could simply say that it was an attempt to trying to take several figures who had done something which falls within the casket deception I have done some harm by that and to try and redeem them in some way and you can see why wells himself would feel impelled to do that because he had to do with the war of the worlds radio times isolation accidentally accidentally on purpose police and address and be persuaded a bunch of people that that country was being invaded by Martians and actually caused real harm to come to real people sometimes he was trying to do something that the claims he's unconscious from a lawyer that he had told which wasn't the way I was going to be believed maybe this is the cynical reading this so maybe it's a cleansing of wells and conscience for taking things are forgeries notices and sang on these things great rather than on the activities of people who are borderline criminals I got a supposed he was trying to do that he wouldn't eventually mentioned actual criminal acts for these people I was quite vague for the mention of bank fraud basically what that's about and they don't really they obliquely referred to it they don't really explain what the deal is %HESITATION my understanding is that what they're referring to is that when Clifford Irving got an advance from the publisher for the fake biography of Hughes some of that money was supposed to go to Howard Hughes but of course his plan was to take all of it and that what he did was he managed to get the publisher to cut checks to H. R. Hughes right and that what happened was his wife at the time who's in the film and I cannot now remember her name actually then got fake identity documents under the name of Helga R. Hughes and went and deposited the money in Swiss bank accounts and then withdrew it immediately that's they were somebody who is this woman on the wing and ever we are we ever going to hear about that that's actually one of the things in a way weirdly enough that he sort of sets up the never really explains but that that was the idea that there's something like three quarters of a million pounds advance on the fake autobiography at least some of which was due to go to Howard Hughes which he then managed to get his wife to go to Switzerland and extract under false pretenses which is obviously a very serious criminal act I'm just reading about it and then as he did either yeah I was thinking I'm not a lot of the film has centered on narratives of failure in some way so there's quite a lot of success to a point and being a faker so even Orson Welles and he goes on to speak about himself and his own past he's a field artists to the field intercity hands becoming an action and then the movie maker the reports on hold please failed weights yeah how may I access the compound we could have gone and got a job working in a restaurant yeah because he succeeds in telling nice believe the lies that starts in the next artistic career that's not what he wanted %HESITATION envisaged way story he started out as a painter in its own right and feels the thought so he copies there's all these narratives of failure %HESITATION depending everybody's motivations everybody's actions the big question is after faith but it's not half for what else that too is an interesting question I always wondered about those two things about it one is that again if you watch the actual film it looks as if the title of the film is about fakes because that's what appears on the can these you know about things film by Orson Welles or something like that and you get the various other credits but it is certainly not an English known under that title what is F. for fake supposed to signify it's hard to know there's all kinds of things I suppose the one that I was just landed on is the sort of children's alphabet book thing and that partly tying into the very very very beginning of the film trying to capture the child like wonder of everything that he's trying to do you see what I mean and then you know connected up with the twinkle in his eye and everything's like you he you know here we're going to do sleight of hand but it's gonna be fun you should approach it in that sort of spirit the only mention that in mind while doing a conjuring of already down it was a whole baby dance magic theatre in Paris the young George Miller has got his training no just in simple and comfortable but also in the radio operator devices you have to make a note to do stage illusions for simple things like capitalism errors and it was on the basis of the fact that he became the first and most prolific trick so might there was quite a controversy in the press on both sides of the English Channel what's going on from it about whether these such films where I know for example you did the structure I can have someone jump off the table and turn into account when they hit the ground simple stuff missions such nice is there some reason some sushi yeah whether that simple turning something into something else makes me disappear mostly exposure well that's simple use of trick for making %HESITATION typical faking or whether it ought to have the time to trick which is more steaming practice behind it's more respectful to small %HESITATION that's a bit like countries that notes are very down it wasn't because of the inotes to your specific source of very early for me one in which I guess it's a matter of deception using this tool kit that you'll come on but not in order to deceive I think that's the contracts that wells is termed as numbers quietly in the sort of news that there's going to be a deception so as far as that back where at the end you guys hands I did tell you because I'm gonna tell you the truth right now I've never come across throughout the four seasons for this phone but that's one aspect that I've never come across a simple statement is going to be a generation for which this film is going to happen I didn't see a and then that's going to stop and then I'll remind you again instead there was two strains and that you've probably forgotten there was a transition period there's actually as well a kind of magic connection as well between the down and wells indirectly because of course I'm saying Harry Houdini took his stage name from who that and in fact one of the sort of again Wells in stories that I think appears in his biographies and things like that is the story that he told of being about the age that that child is in the at the very beginning and meeting and being taught sleight of hand and stuff like that from Harry Houdini which is what kicked off his personal life long enjoyment of an interest in sleight of hand magic tricks and stuff like that we know the genie for ask apology it was a bit craft eschatology he managed to pull off about half the time but most the time complete fight if we put it off after twenty minutes having family doing one yeah so how does a lot better it's like having was impossible at the beginning sequence is really really interesting and then without obsessing too much about details one of things that always strikes me about that sequence is literally the first five seconds of film when he's setting up the kind of standard magic patters of it's gonna be a magic trick this Michelle you know ladies and gentlemen if you have a small object but what he says in the beginning that he was really interesting ladies and gentlemen I say I think I actually had it written down yes it's for my next experiment I need a small object or whatever so he's using that kind of frame of that pattern but where you would normally expect to miss a trick me up for my next trick I'm going to blow up he says experiment there's like literally the first words of the film you know for my next experiment I need all of that always strikes me as such is a strange thing to say but presumably there for significant in terms of okay so if this is an experiment and even over black that is before you even when he gets to the boy I'd take clearly talking about the project as a whole kind of what he's trying to do in the way in again a very lovely sort of played away you have an introduction where almost all of the themes of the actual dialogue are present in the little kind of introductory sequence which is why you never ever ever skip introductions in Plato even when it just %HESITATION ha yeah low down in the gym yeah that was interesting and we saw this guy you know those are always like super important I've always been struck by that like the so it's an experiment it's not a trick this experiment it's only when %HESITATION yes says %HESITATION you're up to your old tricks again the word trick even gets mentioned maybe it's just something as simple as he doesn't want to tip his hand so early it does make me think okay right so what's the nature of this experiment who is being experimented on is it the fewer is it something like the film going public given all the trouble he had about films getting accepted and what not is that the subject of the experiment is it going to be a commercial success our people can understand what I'm trying to do something more intended I would say it's sad he Chris being coded as Mother Earth Day this is the master film maker still experimenting like a little boy and making films whether or not that Phyllis is success commercially or critically this is his opus this is his final swan song my thinking was that he was saying I've spent years making films according to a rule book and sometimes tearing a few pages out I will but for now at the point where I'm I'm known experimental from experimental to find there is someone who doesn't work according to any aspect of the system will work %HESITATION it's interesting enough no one also oxygen as well as this was also an experiment is a means to establish something that is true and so that could imply that what he's off to here it is some different colors I hate that seventy countries but the initial if everything's on casters entering these offer some deeper truth in order for this discussion about fake reading there will be something that works for this mass of people lying to each other that will come to some sort of research findings with anyone else just knowing it's fine don't worry after about two thirds the way through just how persistently he was lying this is an enemy of contrivance about everything that he said something about when you go out with him though he spent in the one moment thanks Jerry yeah I think I think it is it's like a month he's been and then he throws a party and he's always self very quickly of the polity he's greeting as guests and even about policy but things happen %HESITATION so much I think about probably about him having been a concentration camp when I was younger I was is a myth about him even part of that story for such kind of blur together the concentration camp thing I think it's just the somebody who had met him and that he was from %HESITATION perfectly normal kind of lower middle class background and not from an aristocratic background which I guess was a plane the aid you do wonder if maybe that's more than just about R. eight one has this reaction in all sorts of different kinds of how were they able to get away with it for so long but if they're all the things that seem obvious in quotation marks the confidence of the mediocre mom had some interesting stuff and all three of us being very generous vinyls and wells to somebody who committed walk in academic context would be academic misconduct and in our academic lives we look extremely harshly on people who knowingly commit plagiarism we take into account when people do it without knowing that it's a thing but when it's clear that they know what it is and that they've done anyway that's the way to get yourself kicked out of university but not I suppose the difference there is that there is an attempt to deceive and plagiarism and the implication being F. for Frank is that there was some playfulness so avoiding is an intent to deceive when the response was part of that comes through this claim that while he may sell his paintings to those who knows something quite cheaply and then it's then the people who knows and then sell them on for twice three times the price and make huge sums of he did shots of him burning the plant and the drugs that it does as well as a photo ID does he just works out in a mental gym where he works in this Matisse style for a bit Watson is meticulous them for a bit but then never sells these things even though he clearly has that's a big a servicing of something other than and intends to to see it's one of the fact that it's so clearly it's right to so many points that the holy things constantly deceiving people but just north I think they get around it by I said Irving describes says he'll take this painting that's a copy to one expert and I'll say yes that's up sixty international of fire fire in the five calories how can I think he'd take the exact same company to another person and they'll say well this is Katie FHA mocking the idea of the expert that was one of the things that I was thinking about this film have always does make me think about a noise sort of connects up actually to the point that you're making about who you're fooling and what is the extent to which the critique of art experts either can be generalized or is supposed to be generalized again it got played on the brain of course is that same thing in platonic dialogues right that Socrates is about showing that people who believe they're knowledgeable with respect to a certain thing actually parts knowledgeable and then obviously then you get the famous conclusion of the wisest man is one who realizes he knows nothing but in so far as these art experts are either ignorant about their subject in some way or are deficient in some way to what extent is that critique of artists and their complicity in a kind of scam generalizable to other kinds of experts and we live in an age now whether it's peculiar or more exaggerated in the U. K. I don't really have a sense of them live in states for twenty years but the kind of anti expert environment that we live in to what extent is there are criticism almost dare I say it was your example maybe think that other people like us who claim to have pieces of paper saying that we're experts in Abyan see and that some of it is a kind of self reinforcing thing that doesn't actually mean anything it was at the center in the last election we have this tendency expense as Michael got but anti intellectualism folks in our country in the most of the countries that has some purchase when some of these claims to expertise %HESITATION just the flashing of a piece of ID and wallet by somebody's job is to go to market I suppose the one thing the kids twenty years okay difference between households of expertise and also expenses that we are not going to be in the market we don't have a vested interest in pretending to be an expert when we know we have every reason to admit in situations when we don't know that we don't know if that's the same yeah pretty good expect me I've always thought of the pay its share is like adding the driving license it gives you license metric to do the thing doesn't make an expert driver has been making a good director there's so many people out there who you truly are experts in something you don't have to put the paper in their laps people in their respective paper who know nothing for me at sites take doctor philosophy quite literally this is I am like a pro let love find knowledge love and learning so that's why I take it so I don't claim to be an expert in anything I just love learning stuff and I want other people to love learning stuff my memories to Bob said cutting to be an expert in anything I can't remember half the stuff I thought it might affect you if someone was looking for the expert on performance art never mind I know that some faces that's not enough would you rank in the top ten of subjects but now I think I know exactly who to send you to I don't know if anybody else had any more they were gonna say I've got just a couple of things I don't really know how to link them together we don't take any calls for fines structures are facing the wrath of the camera for a moment well we just discuss stylistic tendencies serving having about Sofia Coppola's recently yeah the girl who really speaks so many contrasts with orange and blue is seen as so many dental cameras hand held for tens of sweaty Congress so defensive back but we've touched on stylistic aspects this from crazy and rose five AM David Thompson biography he mentioned shin montage alone takes on it's the Nissan fan that carry set everything can actually there's a part where wild says talking through his past and he's in this park summer and from yes I think just the changing colors of the same same folksy year passing seasons %HESITATION doesn't apply either because of the heat he went to the same park wearing the same clothes to from the same vantage and got somebody to fill in for about ten seconds in each season and then as it goes together to construct yeah I think there's certainly word again this is not based on a vague memory of the DVD commentary I think there were at least two visits and certainly when he talks about I forget exactly what it is I I think it's U. mentions the word winter whatever actually super glue yeah it really looks like it's been can't this got a filter or something yeah exactly because then obviously in the very next shot it's more like the previous one but still different and you say he's sort of telling his origin story as a faker during all of this is Allah may nicely done so I thought that was an interesting point the montage is in the measles and they're working together very much when the roads get associated with working using specific tolerance okay and not using others it's usually because we are certainly look to their work because those directors who use lots of editing still none the less use the movement within the frame and staging and apps in some places are so very comparable to patients included early on going well she never makes the camera and then after about three films going she's very judicious in her movements of the camera you know okay nine point eighty no the other day or send him up to come home never miss you since it's it's a very popular with never moving the camera and then suddenly I just went out okay that's just way too reductive for one thing that I think I underlined several times was that some of the people being interviewed have trains that only I have never forced anything so that was kind he was a fake fortune as one of the many customers from going back to when she was coming if this fakery going on if it's him pretending to us as a sold a fake and pretending that he's found his own fakes in galleries and catalogs and being sold online back we're just going to add a measure of the level yeah yeah this is a funny remark that Clifford Irving makes where he says actually that I've never known L. mir to be wrong in his identification of a painting that he's forged I don't understand what the clean or could mean you know because precisely into the hall of mirrors effect how would we know how we possibly verify that claim I just you know and he gives it with all the sincerity is is this is the conclusive argument I don't understand how can make any sense for precisely the reason that you're talking about the at least possibility that it is all one level further out than it is all the fake though one of the things that bug me a little bit about that and this comes up I think a bit more clearly we didn't see it but the nine minute trailer that wells put together in nineteen seventy six as the trailer for the film as if anybody was gonna show in nine minutes which of course the distributor didn't to the extent that I feel like I should be worried about this and connecting up with some of the things to do with the modern issues are partly around not so much fake news but more of stuff around almost like teaching the controversy so some things in the trailer are a bit more like where he's putting stuff together what's the connection between this person and Howard Hughes and putting these racing's together essentially asking questions to which the answer is obviously no nothing but by asking the question it's like well I'm not making any claims I'm just asking the question when you know that the answer is no and that it has no relations is not a question that we need to ask to what extent is that worrying stroke disingenuous because I think partly right at that point the hall of mirrors stopped you know I think it is possible to think is the hoary actually making all of this up and playing everyone you can spin that out even further into questions that are just not remotely plausible is acting a little of that comes up in the trailer that kind of worries me a little bit about this the one point where it feels to me almost like there's potentially a slightly sinister undercurrent here this is a maybe that's just modern life and fake news and teach the controversy %HESITATION the I'm just asking the question and things have the something that I thought was gonna be if they come up with the whole current faith communities obsession Rick talking a little bit earlier for dinner if I use a reality TV star being in the right place at the moment what is the experience of watching this %HESITATION and twenty eighteen because it's very different from watching and the mid nineteen seventies my name is strongly and when I was reading the biography Thompson mentions it's a very brief made doesn't go into anything but the timing of it it's kind of right around the time or just before Watergate breaks it will bid being made during and just after because right Nixon resigned in August of nineteen seventy four okay and the story has been going on for two years plus the amount of two two and a half years I think is there something different about it is that a bit of fun then yes you can read it back that kind you go deeper is there something is it tapping it even if it's not thought sinister thing itself is it affecting on not more sinister saying these creator participate having so much control and spreading so many lies are shaking society at its core at the moment it's kind of mind boggling how far and how deep it can go it doesn't bear thinking about really with everything that's for good reason a plate face thank Cambridge analytica %HESITATION this is gonna be a really nasty connection I have a little look at the H. U. L. O. I think she will archive at the university of Texas at Austin marrinson resources and one of the letters that I would like to it just says deal wells W. E. L. L. E. S. comma like war of the worlds full stop Wells W. F. O. S. that's it I'm so someone's got this you know he gave it to someone and ended up in this collection of classes but wells you know stick for their connection H. G. wells often claim that he was a profit currently I'm pretty fast it's it doesn't work that way what he did was he would just have a look at developments and extrapolate them one or two years in the future in a way that you could very easily predict anyway %HESITATION what he would do is he would provide a science fiction description of an existing technology I'm not science fiction description would be sufficiently Fagan loose that people come look back thirty years in the future and %HESITATION yeah he was predicting TV in the nineteen nineties %HESITATION his idea actually inspired the thing that he lied to counseling yeah zero tax for example he basically invented tax code landowning class of the time if there was a wells wells W. E. L. L. S. thirty eight LBS affinity in the clean well since wells syndrome of twelve twelve acre involve that baked bean F. for Frank where well this refers to the world in which they live being computerized since nineteen seventy five no one's on mobile phones no one's got personal computers when he talks about the world being computerized systems about computers used as emergency totals by governments and by businesses including a computerized traffic systems savings computers doing managing jobs I got to talk about his computer %HESITATION twelve any means it's computerized and sense of it's sanitized it's regimented it's dehumanized so it doesn't necessarily mean that scene phases that is eroding away our privacy but it certainly has negative connotations anyway he's already that point going okayed the ability to don't commands in such detail the very circulations of capital and resources in our countries that some of the computers are bringing about and that's the thing that we are now living with his name so he was just witnessing a very small budget version of what is now fully flowering controlling our lives so you're a little bit prophetic I suppose %HESITATION falls happening now although I suppose what he doesn't seem to proceed is the idea that computerization which enable misinformation I thank both the circulation of stuff that kind of information it wasn't for him computers actually associated with completely revival on falsified information site actually I just completely disagree not known for selling told although actually that does kind of connected to one of the other things in a modern context that I think is interesting about all of this implication wise and thinking about the existence of the time obviously but with computerization and with the ability of effectively perfect reproduction the kind of societal and general emphasis on intellectual property part of the whole collage element I mean obviously wells he had his source material that he not only have right inbox the cruelty use but obviously then collaborated with him thinking about this in connection with the idea of authorship and remuneration for authorship and authorship attribution being the basis of remuneration that you can kind of see in a way what door is doing is almost creating a new work of art through sampling almost I mean it's not quite the same thing because obviously it's very repetitive but where he's not copying an existing piece of work that is producing a new creative thing based on the elements that exist and then therefore profiting by them because he's able to pass them off as being in an alternate way have you been up by this is such a person thinking about whether or not what the implications how modern that felt to me in a way it's not to say I think it's a little too strong to say that it's predicted anything in that sense but a lot of the arguments that have been going on since at least the late eighties about sampling and about the creation of derivative works using various bits and pieces which belong to somebody else at what point the weirdest authorship resign with respect to that and is it sort of like the point the wells is making the Sharjah section %HESITATION which is I think the one that we have really talked about that much you know in that issue of like does it matter whether or not in terms of the value of something the actual kind of the value capital VS does authorship really matter in that context I was thinking as well by the nature of biography and this kids fit in with them as well because by producing new works that could be passed this old works of somebody else's hi decide a fax art history hi this out of facts the telling of that person's self and then what about you photo by okay a self authorship do you change your own story the change even if that person still alive to change how they can help themselves with a pipe wiles as soulful third because he talks quite a bit about himself and then he uses this as an opportunity to re write his own histories and re imagine his own history theory and quite literally actually in there the war of the worlds excerpt broadcasts are they're different they're not actually they are neither reproductions covers as it were of the thing or if they're actually knew this that didn't exist in the original broadcast their stock re imagining of what the original Citizen Kane it's going to fade with Joseph Cotten saying no I was going to be this character based on hard cheese but then it became a body so obviously wild how to do it and how you reveal and how you think it's not so there's this self authoring of photography and there's and there's a lovely kind of not to that in the news on the March fake news which is that was across the news river Citizen Kane and starts exactly the same way so this is a game news real death comes as it must to every man in this one you must come to every man Howard Hughes had a ticker tape parade it was supposed to be at the point when wells said over the last seventeen minutes has been completely made up probably all of us think trying to discover okay arises lost seventeen minutes has a very different stages from mechanical but one of things that that lost seventeen minutes included was a move from having people themselves talk about what they did to dramatizing it finds us read the thing with still photos of the cast iron with blinds in front of them to make it look like it was because I'm looking out of a window operating the blinds itself and that intercut with footage of four you're walking down the street combination of that and then the lights at all yeah speaking the lines of cancer have so yeah and while speaking the lines of voice grandfather so they would re enacting something that it never happened rather than dramatizing it even using still fight has only worsened so factors into account that runs in front again those are the photos her grandfather again this of memory for the DVD contact actually aren't even still photos actually still in shock that they decided actually not to use the moving image and excerpted individual things and present them as if they're photographs well it's not even that's not even true when she said here are some of the last known photographs that is a true wasn't even shot this photograph well there's no logical question that which is given a film strip is made up of many many still photographs and that what you do when you print %HESITATION still perform and published easy just take one of those photographs are printed as a step further off is a film in addition to being a set of moving images is also several tens of thousands of still photographs that you can pick one or two from our service call a few different status is of storytelling in this sometimes is interviewing people and getting them to say what they said what they did sometimes it's not newsreader who seeing on a tiny yeah they said it was actually the cinematographer camera operator that's not a real news reader anything that was all stuff that he and wells just pick ups that they just did we have quite a piping voice think that person's never could yeah and then there was the re enactment of just having to be able to move on to the people involved to speak the lines of the people involved there's quite a few different stages of recreating or providing an account of something I suppose that was just piling on those different sorts of providing an account of something was part of its very personal feel there was some lunches twelve or twelve as a matter of everybody telling the story and then the sting you with the waiter and the fact that originally calling this background for somebody who grew up in Wisconsin and in New York state he has a very English accent thank this sounds like a bit of an affectation quite correct in north western accent that you would normally get back quite correct size six is renewing his office which is in the north face and makes me think of Frasier Kelsey Grammer as I know that quite correct I'm gonna fight almost American accent is to get but this is somebody who travels a lot he travels a lot he said last year the Britain and Ireland and again I can imagine having as it were locked into the have been a stage actor effectively from fifteen fifteen sixteen and constantly needing to do different accents and stuff that you can do I guess I mean I don't not knowing the excessive or while I'm not in a position to judge via for example thinking of like lady Shanghai exactly supposed to be I I assume because it sounds typically irises completely wrong in that axes are completely wrong amazing found by his actions or any labs that uses a huge amount of Shakespeare on stage I think he adopted three pays for from a fellow bath and I guess chimes at midnight depending on how you want to count on that which is in a way actually a sort of collage as well right because it's a film about Falstaff taking various falls that scene from different Shakespeare plays and putting them together to create the life of all staff affected cities the sitting there yeah that that kind of we have a very yeah after you know after re after re delivery you know he was some of them without really chunky cigar in his mouth when he was asking for in this home and that's one of things that government in addition to the it's fine just touch kids when people are out in public and that's something that is that there are at one point was walking down the steps in a bath if any patted them hosting kid on the head and then slapped him on his I see that currently seem just like it's hardly possible hang up I know what I first thought they yeah exactly my highland is you know it's certainly at that time but it might not even entirely been untrue it's not a huge place and obviously much more so than perhaps in the modern Anglo American world you get very much the villages where everybody knows everybody else and you don't know if it's the presence of the camera for it his presence but when he's trying to fight with the people test party stopping everything apart I think you couldn't possibly know all of these people enough to bring them right to your heart for at least people clearly look like they just won after launch there's a lot of people and because his shot ambling through the streets of the city you very much with this in mind can be very for patiently %HESITATION yeah well we hardly wasted I'm going around to this place that's from a different planet in addition to the S. ones just touch kids thing smoking everyone just smoking constantly smoking in restaurants make use of those houses it's not been long since the smoking ban but because of that and because of the decade or two before that of it's gonna kill you we have not got to the point where that feels about real people smoking so constantly and protect social one of them not very brief mention of the already having a bodyguard yeah that guy from Minnesota yeah a guy who just read and I was kind of awesome and just so you have to go toward the third man became his bodyguards is not any code for love he didn't look like the bodyguard type certainly Michael herring yeah right about my vacation yeah maybe just more pounding on of rumor and uncertainty top of the Disney videos have anything more to talk I very much planned to look up accounts of what people did in reaction to the the world's phenomenon he hears stories that people can open files and stuff and I hear other stories about this told Gulf service sergeant to believe there's while saying that one woman came into police station with a plan to rest up and pain that she's been attacked by several motions am I one of the is that something that was just made up for that someone else made up and make it to him yeah it's not impossible I do recall that the traditional the completion a about UFO sightings and abductions and stuff like that that a lot of that actually really started kicking in the fifties when you start having these birth versus the flying saucers precisely the film which wells uses in here in various bits and pieces to illustrate the the war the world's things and it becomes kind of enabling mechanism for people to project their various psychoses onto in or something to kind of latch onto I think certainly some of that panic was genuine because again although he does when he's talking about it later well but you know we told them there was a whole preamble that Hey this is the mercury theater and we're gonna be dramatized for the world today he really doesn't their various places he could make it clear it just chooses not to so there's I think it kind of cheesiness element is okay we'll just try to see how far we can push this line for fun nothing from me you can read in Thompson's biography he mentions that files had read Pauline Kael's very scary thing essay of wild cold revising canyon and then not see two cars and the sopranos according to Thompson while I was really impressed us this free time anyway he actually ticket really positively give him freedom and license six six faction bras and sort of %HESITATION net and be proud of it and he relishes making sounds and watching presents himself as a fraudster as a trickster as speaker this is often the story behind works that seem to be have a kind of standalone branches of them is that they want the second home off of any the other part of a phone call on a mobile phone on the train that you hear the other part is what someone just said to the person you know it's a criticism that was made couple years beforehand it's a work that challenged a group of filmmakers or writers to do a certain thing and then they do that thing and then the idea challenge oriented publication of criticism disappears from the record const but I want that approach rather than going up thank you for holding going to disagree in writing or in some form to discover yeah in that case thirty sep frauds became his genius I were his genius thank you so much we have thank you guys for having me it's great to be able to watch this and be able to really talk about it the card and then you know just are you surprised if I'm if anything survives I'm interesting sensible at all because of me because it's you know kind of watches will occur oh my god this is amazing becomes kind of blathering massive amazing great great just great that's this nice and to be able to set and to use a few things I get a bit more sense of it because it's one of those it just keeps your mailing it five times how many he owns to grieve because almost two hours you can get it down under the house okay I think it's hard work yeah %HESITATION yeah I know I know I have every sympathy especially you know trying to line stuff up and get it to where the rhythm is right you know I mean I'm coming too soon so it doesn't feel a bit choppy others think everything getting it to sound like it's a natural single piece of speech as I say I have every sympathy from doing all the collage stuff that I'm talking about where it's like you know K. right where we want to overly these samples and we want to have this sound like a response to this exactly how much time you have to leave so that it sounds like a conversation tactical I take all the fake silences item on the reputations and things will of course and instinct about how long is a good polls and it's a very precise amount but it has something like a quarter of a second is too short a third of a second is fine an office I can do is to let you live the moments of time comes making the screen itself please I don't know it's a safe thing so much for having me I'm honoured to have been a worthy to come on and that's exactly what I want to try that option smartest many thanks to Jeff for joining us and all of our listeners and supporters I hope you enjoyed the discussion and got some ideas from it you can find Geoff on Twitter as happy plunder and keen to have more guests on and if you're interested in trying to meet %HESITATION recording over Skype tell me about your interests or work and a broad area of audiovisual cultures give me a shout on Twitter out of peablair or email@example.com. Thanks for listening.
Paula Blair: This is Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and media. Join me your host Paula Blair and the researchers, practitioners and enthusiasts I meet along the way.
See our website at audiovisualcultures.wordpress.com and other links in the show notes for more information.
For now, enjoy the show.
Paula Blair: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of audiovisual cultures. Today we’re looking at the relationship between art and well-being with my very special guest
Paula Blair: Dr Rabya Mughal, who is a postdoctoral research fellow and science arts and culture at University College London’s school of life and medical sciences. You are most welcome Rabya. It’s a real pleasure to have you join us on the podcast today. How are you doing?
Rabya Mughal: hi Paula Thank you very much for inviting me and for that introduction. That was lovely, thank you very much, and thank you for having me on your podcast.
Paula Blair: yeah you’re very welcome it’s been a real treat getting to know you just a little bit this past few months, and to learn about your research so I’m really looking forward to getting into all of that today.
Paula Blair: We’re going to be talking about the role of creativity and what that can play in our health
Paula Blair: But, but there are some issues, of course, because it takes a certain level of privilege to have the means to be creative and do creative things, and so, as I understand you from working on a lot of these sorts of areas and issues
Paula Blair: Specifically on the UCL Community Covid Project. Would you be happy to just outline that project a bit for us?
Rabya Mughal: Yes, so UCL Community covid project is being conducted at the UCL culture and health research group at the division of biosciences and what we do is we look at how
Rabya Mughal: Non medical interventions can help with certain health conditions and we focus on arts and creativity. So what we do know is that
Rabya Mughal: things like art, creativity, things even like sewing and embroidery, being in nature, listening to music, socializing with people, reading philosophy – what we call
Rabya Mughal: salutogenic approaches and non medical holistic approaches – we know that these can be beneficial for our health.
Rabya Mughal: What we do is look at how we can try to evidence that benefit and the Community covid part of this research is looking at how creativity, arts and other forms of Community engagement have been used during the pandemic, and in particular what we look at is how this
Rabya Mughal: Community engagement can be used to address social and health inequity.
Paula Blair: Fantastic
Paula Blair: while many people might have access to something, they might be able to find something around the place, you could have a pen or you could draw on the back of an envelope or
Paula Blair: write something down or most of us have phones of some description, you can make notes on or take a photograph with or something.
Paula Blair: But it’s not always as simple is it as just plucking creativity out of the air, it’s knowing what to do, what you’re able to do, there’s a whole raft of things going on there.
Paula Blair: And, and there may also be different social, cultural, maybe educational and economic barriers, as you say,
Paula Blair: That prevent somebody from just giving something a try, I mean even psychologically people might think oh I’m not good enough or
Paula Blair: That’s stupid, only kids do that sort of thing, all sorts of reasons, and that’s all before we add this weight of covid on top of everything and the added pressures that that’s introduced.
Paula Blair: would you be happy to explain and just tease out some of those details, those issues, for us just so we have a very full picture of what’s going on there?
Rabya Mughal: So I think it’s a really interesting question but it’s also really big question as well isn’t it, because what we know what the evidence says is that when we do these
Rabya Mughal: arts and creativity activities we can involve ourselves in things like aesthetic engagement, we might be using our
Rabya Mughal: imagination, we might be utilizing our emotions, there’s cognitive stimulation that goes on and there’s sensory stimulation, there’s social interaction.
Rabya Mughal: We might be using physical activity and, in turn, those things have a positive psychological response, for example, it might help us with coping and emotional strategies, it might have a positive physiological response, such as
Rabya Mughal: it might lower our stress levels or lower stress hormone responses, it might help us with social outcomes, for example, it might reduce loneliness or isolation.
Rabya Mughal: And it might help us with behavioural outcomes such as adopting healthier behaviours and skills and developing skills.
Rabya Mughal: So what we know that the evidence says that these holistic approaches, these creative and artistic approaches, are beneficial to our physical health and there’s a lot of evidence for that. The evidence is there to say that this works.
Rabya Mughal: But then we come across like you say these barriers for people, and I think that’s really interesting to break down those barriers, so what we see is a lot of cultural, socioeconomic and
Rabya Mughal: and physical barriers to arts participation and breaking that down even further is
Rabya Mughal: When we frame these things, when we make these research questions, are we making the research question? Are we putting our own
Rabya Mughal: frame of mind into the research question? and I say that because a lot of the research I’ve read indicates that we are doing this.
Rabya Mughal: One of the pieces of research I’m thinking about is it came out quite recently, and it was about.
Rabya Mughal: it was about arts and music participation in various different social groups and one of music participation things that they were talking about was participation in ballet.
Rabya Mughal: that was just one of the things, there were lots of other things, but they were looking at participation in ballet. and then, at the same time you’re looking at different groups different socioeconomic groups, how they’re participating in ballet.
Rabya Mughal: So then, when you look at this activity and then you measure its participation in different groups.
Rabya Mughal: It wasn’t a surprise that there weren’t a lot of South Asian communities participating in ballet but then that’s, not to say that South Asian communities
Rabya Mughal: And people from those groups don’t participate in any musical activity, that they don’t engage in music, they don’t use music as a, as different things, as prayer or meditation or using different types of music or using different
Rabya Mughal: ways of expressing music so that’s just to do with music right.
Rabya Mughal: What I’m trying to say is that, when when you frame the question in a certain way you’re going to get certain types of answers, so I think
Rabya Mughal: that’s also got something to do with it, so when we say that there’s low participation in cultural activities from certain socioeconomic groups we’re also saying that there’s low participation in our interpretation of what
Rabya Mughal: Cultural participation really means. So yeah I think that might be more of a reflection on the research question itself, but then also
Rabya Mughal: When we go to
Rabya Mughal: implement Community activities and music and arts within the bureaucratic structures that we have, so, for example, when we take the NHS and we have
Rabya Mughal: This idea that we should implement holistic strategies to help with long term health conditions, when we then take that same research culture into
Rabya Mughal: Implementing this kind of stuff within the institutions that we have, are we then saying Okay, well, we think that all diabetic people should go and watch the ballet.
Rabya Mughal: These are the mismatches that we might have. So I think that’s one part of it is how we interpret cultural activity, so when we say that, then yes, there are lots of barriers but
Rabya Mughal: There are generally lots of barriers as well, there is truth to the fact that there are barriers to arts participation, for example when
Rabya Mughal: We talk to as part of the projects we’ve talked to a lot of social workers, we’ve talked a lot of link workers, I’m not too sure if you know.
Rabya Mughal: If you’ve heard of link workers, so people that work in social prescribing within the NHS and that work within this kind of holistic system
Rabya Mughal: that’s in the NHS. When we speak to them the sentiment is generally that when they’re working with people with vulnerabilities, when they’re working with people who have social economic vulnerabilities, for example, for example, people who are using food banks, people who.
Rabya Mughal: are single mums, people on low incomes. When you’re working with them and bringing to them holistic approaches to their health, for example, saying well why don’t you go on a nature walk? why don’t you do a collage workshop, for example? Their answers generally are
Rabya Mughal: we’ve got more pressing issues, we’ve got housing forms to fill in, we’ve got we’ve got this problem, I’ve got this problem with my Council tax, I’ve got this problem
Rabya Mughal: With universal credit or I’ve got this problem with childcare and so these things are much, much more pressing or appear to be much, much more pressing than taking part in
Rabya Mughal: A nature walk and so there’s that kind of mismatch as well, so we might call it a barrier to participation, but it might also be that that participation just doesn’t seem like it’s very important to a lot of people, so I guess
Rabya Mughal: You have to look at it from a top down and bottom up perspective. So what do we say is participation and what do we say, are the barriers to participation.
Rabya Mughal: And what are participants, what are people within the service saying are their barriers to participation, are their priorities for participation?
Rabya Mughal: yeah it’s a big question. It’s a very good question, what are the barriers to participation and I guess it’s quite a philosophical question as well because you’re
Rabya Mughal: you’re bringing to the lots of your own thinking.
Paula Blair: I wonder if it’s part of the general landscape of thinking that the arts in general are just frivolous, they’re just superficial, they’re not important, and that’s why they’re the first to get defunded and that sort of stuff, you know it’s probably part of a much bigger problem.
Rabya Mughal: yeah and I think sometimes the system
Rabya Mughal: And I don’t know whether this is whether this is just endemic to this country or whether it’s you know we we have a civil service, you know the UK is famous for its civil service.
Rabya Mughal: And whether that kind of thinking is endemic to the civil service and bureaucracy, I’m not too sure, but yeah there is this
Rabya Mughal: way of working, where if it’s preventative then it doesn’t take as much.
Rabya Mughal: It doesn’t get as much funding and it doesn’t get as much.
Rabya Mughal: Attention as when there’s a crisis so when when you get to a point where you do need
Rabya Mughal: Immediate medical intervention, that’s when our medical services do very, very well, but it’s the point of prevention, it’s the point of adopting healthy behaviours, it’s the point of
Rabya Mughal: looking after your health up until the point where it doesn’t become a crisis, and these things are the bulk of the
Rabya Mughal: You know the fun the money that goes into the NHS are to do with these long term conditions.
Rabya Mughal: I guess, when you’re looking at preventative it’s different from when you’re actually in the crisis and so when something falls into that preventative category, because it’s not
Rabya Mughal: Immediate, because it’s not of your immediate concern it’s not there at all, and maybe these are these are behaviours that we need to adopt or behaviours that we need to promote.
Rabya Mughal: But we do know that arts intervention work, so what can we do about those two bits of information?
Paula Blair: really fascinating stuff.
Paula Blair: yeah I mean just to go off tack a little bit here, there is a really amazing charity here in Newcastle upon Tyne
Paula Blair: Which annoyingly their name is escaping me, but they have been on the podcast before. I think it’s rooms for you that’s what it is and they specialize in
Paula Blair: doing arts projects with people with terminal illness so they’re in their end of life
Paula Blair: And they may have a few months, a few weeks, maybe six months something like that, and they do lots of arts projects with them.
Paula Blair: And it just makes them happy and it keeps people occupied and they feel more positive and they are able to think better about
Paula Blair: how to spend their last time and it’s, I suppose, it’s part of that idea of when you can’t prevent anything, what can you do to have
Paula Blair: People have actually a good end of their life as well, so there’s so many I think angles to where this could be important and it’s not at all frivolous it’s actually really essential for well being at all stages of life so there’s an awful lot there to think about.
Paula Blair: And I think there’s probably really strong links with mental health because again
Paula Blair: It gets to a crisis point before anything really happens, a lot of time, sometimes people never get the help they need, and it can end in very, very awful circumstances.
Paula Blair: it’s that sort of thing I think there were a lot of epidemiologists and virologists out there a year ago, saying look if we overreact
Paula Blair: And we prevent stuff that’s better than having to deal with a crisis and, of course, most of the world has had to deal with an absolute crisis and is dealing with an absolute crisis at the moment, so.
Paula Blair: Yes, there’s a lot to be said, I think, for putting more into preventative measures in these So hopefully
Paula Blair: Just by talking about this and educating people about it, that will help.
Paula Blair: if we if we look, then, specifically, at maybe how you’re trying to address that with the Community covid project and the ways that you’ve been gathering data and learning more, understanding more about the vulnerabilities people have and
Paula Blair: The range of stories people bring with them and how we understand different equalities.
Paula Blair: If you’re happy to maybe we could talk, then a bit about the workshops that you’ve been doing as part of that
Paula Blair: and the idea of actually resourcing the creative activities and what can happen when you provide people with the means to do
Paula Blair: you know something creative and if there’s a little bit of direction going on there too in a facilitated workshop. so, if you’re happy to talk us through that that’d be great.
Rabya Mughal: so some of the workshops that we’ve been doing with participants have been
Rabya Mughal: Around people’s experiences of lockdown, their experiences of the pandemic. Their experiences may be accessing services or
Rabya Mughal: experiencing loneliness or isolation or the anxiety that’s come with the pandemic and expressing that through art forms. So we’ve run a couple of very, very interesting workshops.
Rabya Mughal: The first one was run by somebody called Mah Rana who works with us, who is actually a PhD student who’s working on
Rabya Mughal: interventions with people with dementia and so she, she does lots of really interesting things such as
Rabya Mughal: embroidery, so the mindfulness that comes with embroidery and also the fine motor skills and you know everything that kind of comes with doing this very, very intricate and thoughtful
Rabya Mughal: thing for a long period of time. Her workshop was on collage and we looked at how we might be able to express our feelings through the medium of collage.
Rabya Mughal: And you know that might involve looking at lots of old magazines and you know bits of paper and things that you might have lying around, and you know, looking at maybe words in newspapers and picking them out and
Rabya Mughal: thinking about why why you’re picking them out, and so you know when you see somebody’s collage on a piece of paper they might have used a certain colour, they might have used a certain picture, they might have used certain words
Rabya Mughal: To bring the picture together, so it might look like a complete mess of the picture, it might not look completely aesthetically great, it might look wonderful.
Rabya Mughal: that’s beside the point. what the point of the collage is is to look at it and think: how does this reflect my experience?
Rabya Mughal: And in looking at reflecting my experience how do I then talk about my experience, how do I frame my experience? and, if I can have a sort of narrative around the experience, then maybe I might be able to
Rabya Mughal: address the issues that come up during the experience, for example, my collage in particular.
Rabya Mughal: I happen, and I thought this was a very, very interesting, I was thinking, why I was doing this myself, my collage looked at Meghan and Harry interview.
Rabya Mughal: And I picked up pictures of Meghan and Harry and, for some reason I also picked up words that weren’t to do with the interview but were around understanding and telling my side of the story and
Rabya Mughal: Family and these kinds of things and and I’m picking these things out and thinking Why am I picking these things out? maybe I’m thinking about my own family, maybe I’m thinking about my own
Rabya Mughal: way that I project myself or the way that I am talking about how I’ve experienced things, and when you look at these and then
Rabya Mughal: You look at everybody’s collages and you ask everybody to talk about their collages you can see some very, very, very interesting stories, you know you hear about people’s experiences and rather than
Rabya Mughal: sitting down and doing a traditional interview with somebody which we might do in research, and you know it might be very, very structured, when you get somebody to
Rabya Mughal: express their opinion, through the medium of art, through the medium of collage,
Rabya Mughal: You might get a lot more rich data from that, you might get a lot more interesting data from that or you might get more of a glimpse of the person, rather than a set of structured answers that they might
Rabya Mughal: want to tell you just to just to tell you, so we run these workshops just for that purpose to understand how people have been experiencing Covid.
Rabya Mughal: And that’s one of the things that we’ve been doing as part of the Community Covid project. we’ve also done a lot of focus groups of people so we’ve spoken to
Rabya Mughal: Link workers and social prescribers and people that are working in the Community,
Rabya Mughal: people that are working in arts engagement in the Community, people that are working in local authorities and social workers and teachers
Rabya Mughal: To ask them about what what do you think are the barriers to participation? what can we do to make these these things much more accessible for people and what do you think are the issues around
Rabya Mughal: what’s happening in arts participation stuff? yeah and as well as that we’re doing lots of like traditional quantitative work which we have to do as well!
Paula Blair: it must be nice then to be able to participate in the workshops, as well as having to do the more traditional scientific data crunching and
Paula Blair: that sort of thing.
Rabya Mughal: yeah.
Rabya Mughal: And I really liked the idea that we
Rabya Mughal: can do both.
Rabya Mughal: I think it’s very, very important to have that scientific data crunching and that quantitative data that can say look X, Y z happens, and this is the p value, and this is
Rabya Mughal: this percentage of people say this, and therefore we can confidently say this exists because the statistics say so.
Rabya Mughal: But then when you look at the real world experiences, you can at least paint a rich picture and those two quantitative and qualitative pieces of data when they come together, I think, together, they can
Rabya Mughal: create something very, very coherent and I think that’s what the research should look more like.
Paula Blair: yeah I think that’s so important, I mean I think when maybe the general public, those of us who maybe don’t know how the scientific process works necessarily, we just imagine boffins in white coats in a laboratory.
Paula Blair: So it was.
Paula Blair: Really fun because I participated in one of the workshops and it was really fantastic to have you in there with us and you were just the same as all of us, because we’re all being facilitated by Mah and
Paula Blair: there were only a few of us are, but we were having a nice chat as well you know, so it was great in a way it was like a talking therapy for some people.
Paula Blair: As well as the process of I mean, I was very quiet, I get very hyper-focused when I’m doing stuff like that, so I can, I find it difficult to have a chat and make things so I’m sort of making things and being really
Paula Blair: ah doing the stuff but I’m listening, but it was great yes to have you there with us and it sort of breaks down that barrier as well, between the researchers and the participants that you’re studying, we’re not just lab rats.
Rabya Mughal: yeah and I think, I think it’s best to do research and that way. I’ve got to just say also there was another workshop that we did with an
Rabya Mughal: artist called Alejandra and that was a really, really good workshop as well and she actually used
Rabya Mughal: things that were just lying around in the room, and you look at the things that are that there are there, and maybe write something down on a piece of paper and then create texture out of the paper and then you take pictures of it.
Rabya Mughal: With your phone or whatever, or if you don’t have a phone, then you know just look at it, and that was a really interesting workshop as well, where
Rabya Mughal: We you know, wrote down, the first thing that came to
Rabya Mughal: mind and then took pictures of it and then looked at it from a certain angle, and she’s a photographer and so she
Rabya Mughal: talks about perspective and everything, but then all the different types of perspective that there are so not just literally the perspective, but also how you’re framing your perspective, how you’re framing
Rabya Mughal: Your experience and you know some of the photos that people sent in were really, really interesting, some of the things that they had written down on paper we’re really, really interesting and how they’d
Rabya Mughal: Use the paper to express their feelings like schrunching it up or or tearing it apart or folding it, gave you an insight into how their experience had, how the pandemic had impacted on them and what their experience of it was.
Paula Blair: I think, being able to have a space where people felt very safe to just talk about that and to sometimes to use what they were actively doing in the moment.
Paula Blair: So it was a very live, quite a visceral experience as well to just hear people and people have very, very sad stories, like awful awful things have happened to so many people.
Paula Blair: I think the numbers became so big so fast in terms of deaths and cases and that sort of thing, there are so many
Paula Blair: Human stories where people have had tough times and they’re survival stories and they’re barely survival stories in some cases, whether it’s directly to do with Covid or not.
Paula Blair: It was really important to remember as well, like again yourself
Paula Blair: You know you’re a researcher looking at this, but you’re also a human being surviving a pandemic and that’s a really hard thing to do, and you know billions of us are doing this together and
Paula Blair: Maybe more together than some, but it has affected everyone, you know so it’s been really important actually to see a face of the research and see you as humans and it’s been amazing actually that so many researchers
Paula Blair: of all kinds are being so open, and I mean exposing themselves and being quite vulnerable in doing that, but there’s so many doctors out there who’ve set up their YouTube channels and they’re telling us what’s going on all the time and
Paula Blair: You know, on Twitter, you see these very generous thoughtful threads from people who go I’m an actual virologist here we go and explaining a bunch of stuff.
Paula Blair: I just have really appreciated your presence and the actual presence of the research and the researcher being in there, but again at the importance of remembering all of you who are doing that work, you’re people, you know and that’s so important.
Paula Blair: Just a wee reminder to check out the show notes wherever you’re listening for relevant links including audiovisualcultures.wordpress.com for more information and to sign up to our free monthly newsletter.
Paula Blair: If you felt comfortable to do so because you bring your lived experience, as well as your
Paula Blair: Research experience to the project, and if you’re happy to go into that in a bit more detail or whatever you’re happy to talk about there.
Rabya Mughal: yeah and I completely agree with you, I think it is really important to be a person whilst you’re researching. It is really, really important to
Rabya Mughal: understand where somebody is coming from when you’re researching that person, that is what we’re doing, we’re looking at people’s lives, we’re looking at people’s lived experiences and we’re going very, very deep into their psyche and talking about some very
Rabya Mughal: very personal things that have happened to them.
Rabya Mughal: And in order to understand that and empathize with that. I’m not saying that researchers that don’t have lived experience aren’t able to do that, of course, we’re all able to have empathy.
Rabya Mughal: But when you do have that lived experience you bring a different level of empathy to the situation and I think it is very, very important to not have this
Rabya Mughal: power balance between the researcher and the participant. in my mind when when we do these research projects, when we look at what’s what’s happening on the ground and when when we’re looking at
Rabya Mughal: public services that are working with people who are facing the most – the most – inequality in society, then we have to come at it from a position of
Rabya Mughal: partnership. We can’t be saying this is what we’re going to do, and this is how we’re going to implement it, and this is how we’re going to run the service for you. We shouldn’t have that power dynamic, we shouldn’t have that
Rabya Mughal: hierarchy, both within research and within the services themselves and, unfortunately, that is what we see, we see this, we see this hierarchy, we see an us versus them kind of culture.
Rabya Mughal: We see a dynamic, where I am the professional and I’m helping you, and it really ought not to be like that.
Rabya Mughal: When we create services, when we design services, when we innovate these kinds of things, we must do it with people at the Centre. there must be like a participatory approach to this and yeah I bring my own life experience to this.
Rabya Mughal: I am you can either call it first generation or second generation, so my parents came over to the UK. I was born here in London,
Rabya Mughal: in a low socioeconomic background. we had free school meals, we were in the service quite a lot and I have that experience of the service and so that’s what I bring to this to this research and that’s what I brought a lot of my career and for me, it was a very, very
Rabya Mughal: I guess an unusual upbringing, because
Rabya Mughal: I got scholarships to private schools and and all sorts of things happened that made me a little bit different from everybody else, and so I come at it with this lived experience and that also comes with a lot of
Rabya Mughal: with a lot of baggage itself
Rabya Mughal: Because there are these power dynamics and you do see that the a lot of people might go into these kinds of careers and they might go into into research and they might
Rabya Mughal: want to work in these kinds of areas because ‘I want help somebody’ and it really shouldn’t be about helping people.
Rabya Mughal: that’s a bit patronizing. it should be about creating systems where people are able… first of all, where the system is sustainable,
Rabya Mughal: where it thrives, where the system is created for the person and with the person and where the system addresses all of the capabilities, as well as the needs of the person.
Rabya Mughal: And then second of all, it should be a system which is also sort of owned by the person as well, not a system that things are done to the person.
Rabya Mughal: yeah I think these sort of power dynamics, these things that we see within within all of our institutions, these kind of things
Rabya Mughal: are important to how we address these concerns within the with within institutions. I think that, in order to create a fairer society, what we need to do is start pulling at these systems, pulling at these institutions that we conform to and that govern us.
Rabya Mughal: Like I said before, when we do things like around systemic change we’ve got to look at them from a top down, as well as a bottom up approach. I’m not sure if that answers your question, there’s a lot.
Rabya Mughal: I could go on for quite a long time, but that’s the experience that I bring to this work.
Paula Blair: That’s really helpful and that leads on to what I was going to ask next really was about well, what are the hopeful like comes of the likes of the Community covid project? so as you’re saying it’s you know, identifying that need for creating
Paula Blair: I suppose just to very much reduce what you said there, creating these sustainable enabling shared systems that are beneficial really across the board and, as you say it’s not that
Paula Blair: patronizing, oh we’ll do this to help you, but it’s actually empowering people to take on their own issues and do more for themselves and to stop preventing them from doing that.
Paula Blair: so from the project it’s gathering information, but then what’s that going to be used for? is that going to be used to lobby with evidence for these changes?
Paula Blair: is the hope that it will help change mindsets even in ordinary people, so, as you say that the top down so maybe from a government level but also then from the bottom up to think well if there are people in
Paula Blair: Socioeconomically
Paula Blair: deprived backgrounds, who just think art is a load of nonsense and it’s a waste of our time and only
Paula Blair: You know, select derogatory terms here, and it’s only for those people that they think that they should look down on,
Paula Blair: Is it to change their minds and perspectives and go no actually you’re very welcome to do all of this, we’re reducing the barriers, we’re putting those away now, we want you to join in, if you want to
Paula Blair: join in, you know that sort of stuff so I’m rambling a bit, but are those the sorts of things that the aim is to
Rabya Mughal: yeah I mean definitely having a participatory approach definitely having
Rabya Mughal: The person who’s using the service at the centre of the service and sort of driving the change within the service, that’s something that we
Rabya Mughal: always talk about and that’s something that we always promote. we believe that
Rabya Mughal: We should have the user at the centre of the service, you know, have this participatory approach. To involve the user within our research is also you know a very, very important thing.
Rabya Mughal: What we’re looking at, I guess you’re talking about the deliverables of the project. We are looking at a lot of
Rabya Mughal: I guess you can call them top down outputs. so we’re writing a rapid evidence review where we’re looking at a critical appraisal of all of the Community activities that have gone on in the last year or so. We’re writing an evaluation framework. We’re writing a
Rabya Mughal: good practice assessment that makes recommendations for people who are running Community projects. We’re looking at writing an evidence synthesis report, and then doing lots and lots of peer-reviewed
Rabya Mughal: publications and conference presentations. And then, at the same time, like, I was talking about the creative journeys that we’re looking at from the participants
Rabya Mughal: from the workshops that we’ve done so we’re looking at how people have experienced covid, how they’ve experienced the pandemic and how
Rabya Mughal: they’re expressing their experience of the pandemic. so we’re looking at all of these things and I guess you can call them all of these things
Rabya Mughal: are a top down thing that we’re looking at, but the bottom up thing that we’re doing is promoting participatory action within our research, promoting the voice of the user within our research and having lots and lots of
Rabya Mughal: elements of that voice within all of the top down, things that we’re doing so within the reports that we’re writing, we want to have the voice of the user within the reports.
Rabya Mughal: Within the conferences that we’re doing, we want to have pictures and you know the the creative journeys, we want to have all of those within the presentations that we’re doing and that’s because we want to
Rabya Mughal: emphasize that this is research that is done
Rabya Mughal: on behalf of a group of people, and it is important to have that group of people if they could be part of the research, if they could be part of
Rabya Mughal: you know, they can be the researchers, that is perfect, but if that’s not possible, then their voice needs to be heard within all of the elements of the research.
Paula Blair: It feels like covid has brought about the opportunity or the very rapid need and necessity to really properly assess all of this, because these are problems that were existing anyway.
Paula Blair: It’s one of those things where I think across the board, it didn’t bring the problems with it, it highlighted them, it showed them up, it made them undeniable.
Paula Blair: so, is that part of it as well it’s it’s not just about responding to covid. this is forever, we need this change, because this is going to happen again at some point or there’s going to be some other kind of public health crisis.
Rabya Mughal: yeah I think
Rabya Mughal: What Covid has done is really highlighted the inequalities that we have in society
Rabya Mughal: As it is, and it’s really, really kind of exacerbated them as well, so.
Rabya Mughal: Well, first of all, when we say vulnerabilities, when we say that we’re working with vulnerable people, what we’re what we’re actually saying is that we’re working with people who are in socio economic vulnerability, we are
Rabya Mughal: Working with people who have physiological vulnerabilities so long-term health conditions and also with people with psychological vulnerabilities so people with you know long-term
Rabya Mughal: Mental health conditions. and when we look at how the pandemic has affected people within these groups, what we see is that these vulnerable
Rabya Mughal: populations entered the pandemic from very, very uneven starting points. If you’re living in poverty, for example, if you’re
Rabya Mughal: On a low wage, if you’re a member of a single-parent household, you’re most likely to have the highest level of covid-
Rabya Mughal: related impact. You’re more likely to be exposed to the virus, you’re more likely to be living in very condensed areas and
Rabya Mughal: You know these kind of disparities put vulnerable people at more of a risk of negative outcomes and those negative outcomes are only there because there’s already existing structural
Rabya Mughal: and institutional disadvantage. And the same is for people with chronic physiological conditions, chronic psychological conditions that
Rabya Mughal: require multiple points of entry into various social care and health services and so what we know is that if you started off the pandemic
Rabya Mughal: From an uneven starting point then those uneven starting points are just going to get more and more and more disparate.
Rabya Mughal: That’s the landscape that we’ve started off with and you’re right that the pandemic has highlighted vulnerabilities and
Rabya Mughal: What we’re also wary of is that.
Rabya Mughal: Do these vulnerabilities, are they going to carry on post-pandemic? Are the services that we’re promoting during the pandemic going to be running
Rabya Mughal: The same way as they are in two or three years’ time? Have we created different ways of working during the pandemic
Rabya Mughal: that we will now be expected to work over the next you know, several years? And those are things you know we can’t answer those things at the moment, what we do knows that there’s been
Rabya Mughal: A severe sort of upheaval to lots and lots of community
Rabya Mughal: activities and Community organizations over the last year or so.
Rabya Mughal: What we don’t know is how those Community organizations are going to adapt and survive in the future in order to address all of the vulnerabilities that they have been doing for years and years.
Rabya Mughal: And so you know for the people that are working within those within those activities within those
Rabya Mughal: organizations, there is a big worry that we’re working on shoestring budgets, we’re completely stretched.
Rabya Mughal: we’re doing things online when there’s a lot of digital poverty, when there’s a lot of deprivation and people don’t have access to online things, and so how is this going to carry on? Are we now going to be expected to work on these shoestring budgets from now on?
Rabya Mughal: There are lots and lots of questions about how
Rabya Mughal: You know, social, health and community care services are going to work from now on and it is a bit of a worry for people that are working on the ground yeah.
Paula Blair: yeah a lot to think about there. Do you know if there’s anything
Paula Blair: That, what could be possible solutions or what will assist people in
Paula Blair: What we need to do to start affecting change? Do we need to start writing to our MPs?
Paula Blair: I guess, I mean if you could point people to where we can start learning more about your research that would probably be a good start as well, but
Paula Blair: You know, is there anything that general listeners of this podcast, what can they do to maybe push this on a little bit more, is there anything we can do and what might that be, what do you need to get this started?
Rabya Mughal: yeah so you can find out more about our research at culturehealthresearch.wordpress.com. That just outlines quite a lot of the projects that we’ve been working on.
Rabya Mughal: at the culture health research group at ucl we focus on lots of different types of Community participation activities and how they influence
Rabya Mughal: Our well being and our health.
Rabya Mughal: that’s a very interesting question, what can we do to help?
Rabya Mughal: It’s a very, very interesting question.
Rabya Mughal: I think.
Rabya Mughal: The first thing that we can do is
Rabya Mughal: promote Community activities, promote these kinds of organizations and
Rabya Mughal: help these kinds of organizations that are working on the ground and working with people. We should be promoting
Rabya Mughal: Better funding to these kinds of organizations, I mean these kinds of things are out of our hands but you’re saying to
Rabya Mughal: writing letters to MPs, I mean you could do these kinds of things, you could
Rabya Mughal: be actively involved in in these kinds of debates, but I think the best that we can possibly do is create a system which promotes
Rabya Mughal: Community engagement, that promotes healthy participation and public services that involve the user at the Center of the service, and I think
Rabya Mughal: When we can create a system where these these things can exist, then we can kind of start to address these inequalities in society. When we can
Rabya Mughal: Look at how power dynamics within the system can be addressed, when it’s a less of an us versus them kind of a system, when it’s less of a
Rabya Mughal: ‘You need to do this, and this, and this, and this in order to get your universal credit’ this kind of system, when it’s less of ‘you need to jump through these hoops
Rabya Mughal: Before we can sign you on’, when there’s less of this kind of a power dynamic, that’s when you might get better participation within systems within these public
Rabya Mughal: Institutions, so I guess what I’m saying is that we need a systemic change and we need
Rabya Mughal: We need a much more compassionate
Rabya Mughal: way of running things in the public services.
Rabya Mughal: I don’t know if we can do that from writing to our MPs.
Rabya Mughal: the bigger picture I guess would be that.
Paula Blair: yeah, I think, and I mean it’s a small advocacy thing to do, but it doesn’t hurt to educate your MP. Some some of them, some of them, are are willing to be educated on things. I’ve found that in my constituency at least. It’s worth a try.
Rabya Mughal: it’s worth a try and it’s worth promoting these kinds of things yeah.
Paula Blair: For sure. It’s putting me in mind, I think of
Paula Blair: Things I’ve heard on a raft of other podcasts that I listen to, where sometimes we just need to be leaders in our own communities and it might be those of us who maybe have that little bit more privilege than somebody else.
Paula Blair: Just starting something, I think that, like as we’ve seen with the mutual aid groups that just spring up
Paula Blair: more than a year ago
Paula Blair: where communities just got together and did stuff for each other, did shopping for each other, just small things like that, it’s maybe huge to somebody else and
Paula Blair: it’s just things that can include your neighbours or whatever, and hopefully if it’s even if it’s feeling quite tiny, if there’s a ripple effect of that tiny droplet that you put in the water, you know, hopefully it would get a bit bigger and, as you say, it is about
Paula Blair: empowerment rather than charity, you know, and that’s a major frustration I have is that in the UK, certainly, we’re so reliant on charities. You know me in myself
Paula Blair: the only way I’ve had proper treatment for mental health issues as through charities, that’s a really major thing that
Paula Blair: We as a society need to go: that’s not okay, it shouldn’t be up to people donating their hard-earned money to pay for somebody else to get therapy, you know, it should be provided for, because we’re not well because of the system.
Rabya Mughal: It’s a basic, it’s a fundamental right to be able to access any kind of
Rabya Mughal: Health support. You wouldn’t expect if you have
Rabya Mughal: high cholesterol, or if you have diabetes, you wouldn’t expect to be ignored by the health service because you have this long term health condition, and it should be no different if you have
Rabya Mughal: Any other condition. If you’re experiencing any kind of health condition, that should be addressed by the health service, and I do feel that we’re kind of in the foothills of this both of this research, but then also of this
Rabya Mughal: way of working with people.
Rabya Mughal: We see big sort of shortfalls in the social care system where if you’re a carer for somebody you
Rabya Mughal: are having to rely on charity, you are you’re having to rely on
Rabya Mughal: Things that you shouldn’t be having to rely on. the The state should be you know, supporting you within these situations, and in other countries, there is this this kind of state support, or there is this emerging
Rabya Mughal: Addressing of
Rabya Mughal: The increase in social care needs and we do have that here as well, it’s happening
Rabya Mughal: But it needs to increase in the next you know however many years because
Rabya Mughal: We now have more people who are recognizing mental health conditions, we have more people that are in need of carers, we have more people that are in need of preventive medicine.
Rabya Mughal: And these things all can be addressed through holistic interventions through these salutogenic approaches and
Rabya Mughal: if we can use these things to address these issues, then that would be brilliant, but it does need state support and it does need you know the public service support and, hopefully, you know, hopefully that’s something that can happen in future.
Paula Blair: it’s all stuff to work towards. I think on a happier note, you mentioned to me before that there might be an online exhibition of some of the work from the workshops, would you be able to tell us something about that.
Rabya Mughal: yeah So if you go to our if you go to our website, you should be able to see the exhibition, it should be up in the next few weeks or so. yeah so it’s at culturehealthresearch.wordpress.com.
Paula Blair: Wonderful. Rabya is there anything else that we haven’t covered today that you would like to say? this is a good, it can be about anything.
Paula Blair: You just want to add anything that we haven’t got to I mean I think we’ve covered everything we planned to do, but if there’s anything at all I’ve forgotten about or do you just you’re burning to say or what’s your favourite movie you know anything at all.
Paula Blair: you’ve got the floor.
Rabya Mughal: Oh I don’t know if you’re going to regret doing that!
Rabya Mughal: I think it is important
Rabya Mughal: To reiterate that these kinds of different, innovative and alternative ways of looking at how these you know these different ways of working can really work.
Rabya Mughal: And you know we like to promote those things and we like to we like to look at different ways of working, we like to do we like to look at innovation and.
Rabya Mughal: how public services might be able to work in a completely different way if we just turn the service on its head; how might it work if we… I worked in an
Rabya Mughal: Innovation project years and years ago where we tried to look at how to innovate the job centre.
Rabya Mughal: A simple thing that we did was allow the people who were signing on to sit in the chairs of the person working at the job centre and changing that power dynamic, you could see that it did something for people’s confidence. I think that’s a very interesting
Rabya Mughal: way of looking at public services, it’s a very it kind of it’s a very telling way of how we do public services and I think there is a lot to be said about this power dynamic
Rabya Mughal: That’s in research and in public services, in all of these kinds of things that we’re looking at, and you know we can kind of
Rabya Mughal: change that a little bit if we can change the hierarchy around a little bit, make it a little bit less us versus them then maybe we might be able to move forward.
Paula Blair: that’s wonderful, that’s a really important message. Dr Rabya Mughal Thank you so much for all your time and for conducting this really important research. It’s been just an absolute pleasure getting to know you and about your work, thank you.
Rabya Mughal: Thank you very much, it was really interesting to talk to you, Thank you.
Paula Blair: This is a cosy pea pod production with me Paula Blair.
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hello and welcome to another episode of the audio visual cultures podcast I'm your host polar bear thanks for finding us die noting and lessening this week features my post viewing discussion with film historian country she'll about a severe Coppola's two thousand and three from lost in translation before settling into that reminder that you can get in touch by email on audio visual cultures at G. email dot com with queries or if you'd like to be a guest speaker at the time of recording I'm still designing the audio visual cultures website which hasn't yet launched or go to man to help me get it up and running please consider pledging a monthly subscription via peach tree on dot com forward slash P. E. A. but there were you can also access videos blogs and video transcriptions all building towards populating the website which aims to facilitate accessible inclusive lifelong learning of arts and humanities subjects amounting to audio visual cultures I really hope you enjoy the discussion so what else and translation because I've seen it before okay we haven't seen it there it was is that is pleasant surprise because so much of the publicity about it it was this is just gonna be an on off of watching people being detached from the coach of the fed just to IBM from ten joy and standing out there but the phone was there was just about to people you have a relationship with each other because they couldn't really have a relationship with people sent anyone else %HESITATION %HESITATION it was great for the camera being very sticky in it stuck to the main characters and also start take your record is done interesting between Bob and his wife from a fanatic Franco's yes Tokyo Seoul with tiny found in Tokyo and it did it's a seemingly very thoroughly the total time spent on the phone was about two weeks but it was also quite vague in that it was a very it's just another day another night this might be an identical data the one you've just seen ten days later or maybe the next one so are those wreckage of having restricted nurses taxi I would be sent into the making fun of that just put the next day in tanks really want to tidy thanks convention I think the way it it sort of stretches starts got quite enough sick time because if it's maybe only a week or so more a matter of days but maybe it feels like two weeks because it's the days on the nights because the posts and some snacks some I'm a legend for not casting what two other people are really blatant trips trends or themes and felt so because it took me awhile to get that they weren't sleeping isn't always quite spell tax burden of that thing and one one thing that I thought was quite neat person organize things is quite attention grabbing was to have her at least able to sleep because she had spent some time with him Chaucer yeah as a woman I basically just falling asleep next to each other on the back that was very sweet although having both also sleep really well when he seemingly unerringly bad in the because we had to sing it I did seem to muddy the waters because it kind of runs actually it is not a special bond with her he just needs someone around him and then %HESITATION straight answer I think they could have been greater clarity there with whiny they were not sleeping so was it to do with alienation from the surrounding culture was is there with them being pulled to the cause okay both have some work to do but it was enough the firm went out of his way to stress that he's got very little to actually do justice one line into the camera and pretend to drink %HESITATION posted photos yeah so remember how how many hours does it take to do that sort of thing comes into going he's got like two hours works today so is the phone going these people are sleeping because that would always have guarantees on tape these people are sick because that jet lag or is it going to be listening because that the times from the surrounding culture is the number for insisting that mental health is relies on mental wellbeing relies on having meaningful contact Sharon kelch and they seem to be doing a little bit said each of these %HESITATION in the van Noy tart with Charlie and various other very scheduling and people seem to be part of them becoming more comfortable in our shoes I suppose this might that maybe this is a couple of things but you know I'm not %HESITATION suit I'm easing into %HESITATION what's gonna be a lot of fortune couple comes in the next few months I think maybe she just let there be multiple factors banging around anyone Thomas is less of a certain degree of uncertainty I think there's a point where I kind of assumed more certainty than the film was willing to provide because I finished a soon the film is going to deliver very deliberately delay it's an old man and a young woman having a relationship and the relationship is DJIA's friendship and that's it and it's going to be on like a lot of previous films most stations are representing man and woman relationships across narrative where they're just going to become good friends and it would be beneficial to both of them and that will be it control is going to be it's going to be bucking the trend is going to be conspicuous but then when it started to go to implant placed that at least Charlotte was interested in Bob I thought all right assumes two great integriert simplicity and certainty on on his part because it of course it was throughout there is a possible relationship suggesting that there might be some some chemistry between Guinness directed by a woman the victim with my house new jacket tendencies together I would count possibly be a bit greasy patriarchal but it didn't seem to do that when they say goodbye because she was just completely okay with kissing on the lips and she was there was any mention our membership right the show from her head high facing her rather than facing him and then it should embarrass just without any sort of organised just kiss each other and not seem to be a kind of has a win for our main character thing he gets to smoke young very let the woman on the lips I just love it and she will be completely okay and disaster maybe that's me I don't know I mean it's deliberately ambiguous and then there's been so much talk over the years of what the T. whisper to her because you don't know and %HESITATION Poland's Bill Murray ever in the street nothing severe COPD chest the uncertainties some days and so I hanging over the whole thing but also feels very final as well it feels like these people they're very likely never going to see each other again although they do seem to inhabit the same morals I mean it's implied that perhaps he's also in New Yorker he set it up in Atlanta and then east to west coast making America thank but it still hits another huge play as so what are the odds of them being in the same place again even then and since that day and then both of them are in professions where they have twelve she's being kinda dragged along on our husband's profession and this is not a contract along because she chooses to go because she fired admission she doesn't know what she's doing with her life you know so you've got these people here it's very it's very it's intergenerational thing where you go these people that totally different stages of life but still nobody %HESITATION none the wiser the fight the future for more than fifteen one thing this was the main event of specifying is Scarlett Johansson was around eighteen well for me so that's what we seem to have worked right given her age and and when the film was released she was born in the late nineteen eighty four and this is this in two thousand three so in short in two thousand two so roughly eighteen maybe even seventy five she's been character who's just going to have to sushi Mohammed right twenty one the thing is I'm twenty two invest in the US is even more years than it is here so I think what is it five years so this is yeah this is somebody who's well past the twenty their early twenties was coming up the mid twenties so they got somebody who was still a teenager to play someone who's in the twenties and it's usually the other way around yeah that's the thing that's the interesting thing about that and %HESITATION your work when we were watching the film the sort of mention girl hates because that's that that that is a thing in Coppola's films and the actresses said she works with continued they hands hi he mentions cation don says well he's also worked by Scott but but she's worked a couple of several times about the first time is in the virgin suicides for this and she was a teenager so you know and that that girl specifically yes Giles and hearing creating teenagers and her firm says that is something that quite a few people are doing quite a bit of scholarship on a minute and %HESITATION but it's fascinating watching you Hanson high the camera watches her because it's not a very camera and you have quite intimate with her body and you know she's comfortable I didn't feel like she sexualized even though she squandered her underpants quite a lot of the time he's a brave opening shot which just shows her in happens but shows like C. three PO yeah and also doesn't show her head it was definitely the right way as companies and as her lying down on the left of the frame was roughly a shoulder blades so it's just it's one of those segmenting up a woman too yeah just a body part of the two shots but it seems that the film was doing that early on in order to then later on to different things yeah because I think because I think they should but where do you have quite a few times she screamed and she's curled up she's talking or drag scene %HESITATION showed me her name and she's looking over that incredible city skip of Tokyo from hotel rooms and I anyway I see the you send her I mean there's just a few tiny touches like the combat is moving around quite a bit sorry mo bile but it sort of stops in her for a moment and takes her in but also picks up that she sort of Waco interfaith on the %HESITATION facts you know and and she's just being a girl you know because that would be my experience being a girl certainly of a fatty issue in the late teens say Ian probably fell even say my thirty days you know you Carla you're on your own and you care about the fate kind amazing fan so to do that %HESITATION things of their own and even if you're maybe not conscious of it but the cell touches of the old body may fence and gestures are picked up you know so it's it's a so if she has five fences it's not in the usual way it's not that objects flying there a camera yeah you know it's definitely it's it's so it's a woman picking up another young woman staying just ordinary things of their party and there was there was definitely some different registers of cinematography in this because there's there's quite a lot of this comes just going to say here is not going to move and it's and they will not be any casting for really a long time which is quite a Japanese your classical Japanese thing Tuesday and some of them and then whenever they were traveling there was lots of cameras attached to vehicles so there was high movement shocks whenever people was looking at things that seem to be a tendency to just do the normal almost someone's got to look at something at them then be online match that with it as Constance because few brief shots and then there was the mixed in with all of this there was the slightly wobbly hand held shots which may very well have been steady cam but you couldn't make study come still look quite %HESITATION asset manager yeah yes others should both shorts which wanted to suggest uncertainty awards and suggests a connection on the part of some of the characters would have to use that sort of camera just orbiting them going I'm just having a look at this present surroundings maybe a look at what they're looking at maybe a look at them in the act of looking I'm suppose that we could see that as the implications I mean any viewer of some surveillance annoying them but it wasn't that you don't face it failing yeah it was it was more simply when you know what it's like to be these people but to also be slightly the the way it is %HESITATION this is what is known as a particular for psychological condition where you feel like you're outside your ability this but I think that there there that that this was actually what it's like to be them it's like sitting behind your own shoulders looking at yourself looking at the world I can I think that you know when when Charlotte's goes sites honored at lex petitions you know she goes and she's trying to absorb the culture I find that it sets those long shot stopper she's in ghosts by her son's gift sets those up by for showing her on the periphery of whatever's happening you know so she goes to the dentist temple show share offering and sort of framed against doorway she never quite comes and %HESITATION it's a CM and she notices the wedding party and she kind of goes off to the side %HESITATION watches from sort of almost and Tracy she is the observer and we're observing the observer so it's it's kind of like you're saying we're shadowing her rather than surveilling her its decisions is that that sense of being outside during that I'm so this is also I find it that there's a lot of long focal plane here they should the telephoto lenses being you think it's flattening yeah the city skip you know their shots from the car sheared should backing around popping around at all the skyscrapers and things they liked quite flat they look set to ship drifting across the screen as two dimensional objects that flattens I don't know if it's relevant to think about how make back you know %HESITATION mine and mine get it and not I don't know kites and I know that said Japanese filmmakers like tiki chic it's time to use %HESITATION the telephoto lenses all law so you know to sort of flattened their characters against city skip some things I don't know if it's sort of references to those sorts of things or if that's just high it's hard to know what the creative decision on lots of budgetary constraints %HESITATION but %HESITATION yeah I thought that was quite a lot of that going on and I don't know if it's outside distortion %HESITATION because we're so used to it you Tokyo is a city that has so many of us only see on the screen and then it's stated depiction as well certainly the twenty first century depictions of it it is a city of screens as well not so he say third film that is you know Bill Murray fall Paris on screens blasting paths and him saying that you know these flattened images of real things for flattened images of both non real things created things but there's just screens everywhere those screens in the okay please use the reference our total rooms screens in the karaoke bar does your factoring in that's quite flattened even the first parliament to animate Charlie that those big kind of want semi transparent polls will be used to screens as well because everything is projected on them either from inside of yeah and I thought about it publicly having to turn the computer off so I can't just put a DVD but take a quick look one person that will be reading I think is the short when balls walking towards the camera and it's the longest of telephoto lenses was denied classic thing as he's walking down a city street walking towards the camera and he seems to be bobbing up and down rather than actually getting yeah the camera at the point of additions with him any seven phone coldness with his wife and their fat he's not going anywhere and so is is that he and his wife that we have a relationship anymore %HESITATION and then that is lakes %HESITATION contrasted with when he notices Charlotte when he thinks that set but not as nice of one loss on VAT used out of focus %HESITATION it's between him and show it as regular as wave saying oh look at her he's got a focal point nine dear Sir is the simple choice that together we're going to have any shot down a busy street Taipei it's going to be telephones are almost everything will be in focus and nobody will be appear to be going towards or away from the camera second version is actually having a difference for some and it's indicating the importance of something thanks for the info maybe I wasn't in the room is that this was a film about two Americans finding that Americans are really great people and many of our Japanese characters were implicitly sometimes perhaps Joe really and sometimes quite mildly but none the less ridiculous characters so it cannot pick where one of you was talking to her seat was was having a crack at speaking French to him yeah %HESITATION and yet we were getting really poor quality sound from that character and just blow my acting zero interest on Bahama product open because you know maybe the film might lay a movie from the does that might get those characters criticized later on from being so dismissive of people in the surrounding started didn't seem to yes correct being constantly surrounded by Japanese people seem to be just a constant annoyance on two main characters okay well I'm just reminded of talents run them I was about to go to India nearly been there for ages all righty we actually worked out a way that I could meet him is very weird meeting my Big Brother and after five and a half times of the way and he he emailed me back and forth and phones loads of accounts of what he was experiencing this time at that and he said there was one very revealing email reset it's just so great to be out here you meet so many interesting Weston is what do you mean any Indian citizens thank goodness on a second I think so we've been I think I would go and he just been meeting people from all over Europe and North America but none the less he'd been spending time with other travelers and engaging with actual citizens the place yeah the meeting and it may be the locals when they see people who have that just to embrace the worlds they just go %HESITATION I'm going on to this policy because I've got stuff to do go colonize somewhere so maybe there was an implicit criticism in lost in translation is implicit criticism of all these Americans who are having a big emotional trauma by having this the city that just doesn't give a fuck about the city that's doing its own thing regardless of what's happening between them and maybe we're not necessarily supposed to internalize were the two main characters no I don't think so I mean I mean you have to unpack the wealth they both clearly have and they give it that I think the the other actress you know that the trump and say the one promoting her action movie Cameron Kelly I think the character because she hates this stereo Ricco young Hollywood vacuous blondes but the lady actress you know and I don't quite believe that they're actually you those people are actually like that idea I don't know if I buy that but maybe maybe they are and maybe there's a stereotype for a reason I don't know that I'd like to think that it's not quite the case all the time but you know so I think probably three her third shot that could take might be happening but I suppose it's it's being focused on her so as to not to be focused on on two main cast yes deflected from them three somebody else and then you've got the woman who's the singer in the bar and making a bee line for Paul and you probably know who say it is you know and and whatever it's a bit of a I don't know maybe it's a cliche it's set up not sure did you I mean this might be difficult to remember the first service or do you find yourself going I'm surprised that Charlotte's jealous of her I really can't remember because when I first saw it it wasn't long after this maybe it within a year to the DVD coming nights so I didn't see it in the Senate map but I was me a baby I was probably in my early twenties here to my home to gray at the time I favor member but I won't because I used to work for Tesco and Tesco had their own DVD rental service you know that that was kind of like the low found that you have it was it was actually powered by the phone which is sadly no longer thing %HESITATION and it was C. have you had a subscription any costs you two DVD Samantha whatever you decide I did stocks I was pretty easy the U. I have stuff that's kind of the most affordable way I could see maybe it's because I can afford to go to the cinema very often so I was catching up with it with the stuff like that and that was one of thousands I walk fast so that was how I watch that film and his late probably because I was aware of I was aware of Scarlett Johansson because I had been saying her in films since I mean she basically I mean she's a day younger than me you know that she's been acting for a long time so it suited me %HESITATION nineteen super short of sometimes punctuated sentences she was and coming out and so is aware of her and of course very aware Bill Murray so he's a big draw and I didn't really know anything if I see a couple of times but I just saw that him and pick ten together and of course it's right that she's Francis Ford's daughter I don't know I just remember the hype despite the film and you know everybody talking about high and they Connecticut was and what a lovely sweet love story it was and you know I was keen to get to go because I really like and the felons and you know have always been hungry to see films directed by women and I do you remember feeling like you're right I can probably similar to a pro we appreciated but more nine the wasn't bowled over by it I don't hate you I sort of so can enjoy the process fortunate life I think it's a very pleasurable for them to just send watch and it's one that very that let that really stayed with me I I remembered sort of very little she ought image that so all we have remember that night %HESITATION yeah the pain quake and you know the saying you just got this fashion image by forgot most of it print the it turns out that they both have feelings for each of the parts of the film I don't even think about do you think that that was all right well seven the most difficult first time out this time around the unexpected for many I think in it and this and that kind of way perhaps a bit disappointing rather unexpected as just like but then I think where can it because because at the moment it's interesting watching it at an early age twenty eight team because so much has exploded late late wife's older man he'll finally kind of becoming accountable for preying on younger women and this relationship is very different from that this is very consensual very gentle the fluff based on friendship that is not sexual you know I think that's the main thing is that he doesn't objectify her I mean you can say that he clearly thinks she's beautiful but he doesn't objectify her he he doesn't try it on with her hello Sir they they do make for in prison with a separate non written and directed by mistake okay right so couple residents get makes quite conscious decision to take somebody who's still very young and make it so that she's married so that it's not a married man and a single young woman yeah at least from my mind a young woman who has a boyfriend but as I'm married it's definitely two people who are married and with with that bunch or at least establishing a degree of equality between the age difference disappears at certain moments when they're when they're watching they're watching any film at the end and she picks it up under tower yeah I think it's a little to be said for the Nissan it's shameful and they will live with those of other films and I wasn't may concentrate not just some of the best in the fight to end you know and actually it's interesting because the back where as Sade is walking across a kind of courtyards and he sort of thing go fast and that it actually made me think of Antonio nice sorts of remains you know what this character is completely enveloped by their surroundings so I think it was a very it's very much chance national chance nationally influence on this was that shipping transaction %HESITATION I suppose that when I mean it was probably the seven samurai and one of one of your two guys Hey here's a little bit from from which is part of the calendars from history and I want to have one of my characters reacting to it that tells you about the with the film thinks about cinema in general and it was in this instance it was just another one of our catalog of things that baffled on main characters yeah the other thing is this sort of classical Japanese cinema still isn't quite good enough for most yeah I mean that the the way the media is portrayed it could be very realistic again I don't know it's one of those saying she just keeps saying and may face and TV shows and being references hi there can you media's circuit S. and in Japan and %HESITATION you know him J. and the talk show it's just really bright colors and bizarre that's it is saying and I hate this guy just bewildered but he's playing a long place ready for Wilder needs to clearly doesn't fetes but that's a system soft check hyper constructed world that nobody hit him and it's a very it's there's an intensity of entertainment I suppose that comes in the same manner Sharma is kind of scanning your online and our kids watching old gamers and the thing is is that there's a stir %HESITATION good trained as that those two characters might be towards people I mean not from really spends time with gamers and they are kids and show sick Licari at that big because our child based players are not on the screen but while they're playing the performances of them playing the games the guy playing the guitar the guy he's I don't know what kind of game that was but he's dancing and he's hitting the buttons but the thing and it's just it seems like it's just the sort of reaction you kind of get points sheet the things kind of gave him but have the chance that he performs what he's saying that and then you know I sort of fats and mo bile he is eight zero six BTC people with real talents we have faith that killed her last seen %HESITATION and I get in the ring times in Russia for Medicare where they go okay when I was planning to do this evening was to from quite a lot of shots of my main character with lots of and to focus business in the background but I've just seeing what my actual location is like and there's some amazing stuff the case and so I'm just confirming my done filming members of the general public maybe asking permission of reminder once as in Tom my the tenor of assured me any footage that you shot it was this boy who was on %HESITATION you know in quite one open public areas there's often a metal thing on the entrance not to act not gate but just the thing to make it so that if you are going to go in on your body you have to get off your bike for just a moment and we'll bike around the metal thing and keep going it was a boy and he was just a kind of a local kids and plan around after school one day and it was gorgeously sunny day and he was sitting on one of these things and just doing rolls underneath it nothing you just let your whole body full forward hold onto with whatever the metal you're holding on to and kind of swing around there and maybe come back up and see this film him doing it for about five minutes in an office building in doing it went up to him and said is it okay if I put that in my movie and ultimately did say this this item is there is a willingness to use on script thanks yet that that there were parts that I thought would documentary like even with the actors and marriage to fail when they were running away from the I don't know what sort of weapon here it was like some kind of automatic he was he was deliberately shooting little hot docs yeah yes one of seem to be really scared like any it was not clear because that's the thing it's all about it these to a western people yeah yeah and it's it's it's just a service no %HESITATION kind of sense of why would she even though these guys why would her husband even know these guys you know why would any of them be friends it was just it felt so bad she horn that part for me because it just felt like even her husband's kind he can't stay still for five minutes high scenic in the science and then why are these days the slight Bach quite purvey surfer dates that's a look at the clock well this is the two bones were from the interrogator welcomed without prejudice by Charlotte's friends experiencing Japanese not buy from coach Giovanni Ribisi the poor thing will well you know what the phone of the happens every now and then we're suddenly acted just seems to hit his or her stride and this just happened to be in two or three TV shows of two or three films a terrific place where they just really great and then suddenly that's just the Darling of of everyone the whole different public and that just hasn't been in the spotlight for that and if this is often decades of doing running jumping work as in quite small roles just been someone who's okay there was that particular entrance and not particularly interesting to the general public and this the seven Benedict Cumberbatch for example he'd been in committees for ages and then suddenly rose before Sherlock Holmes I think he just got a couple lucky film roles and suddenly everyone was really excited about that and to come back I think Giovanni Ribisi is gonna have to in a couple of years it's just been a really really nervous slightly scared looking fidgety character in basically everything that he's been in and in about two years he'll get lucky with a role which is quite new for him and then suddenly everyone we love Jeff on the replace it after the best part of the world he said Medicaid T. V. role so I think mostly mostly that kind of comment character but totally pledging friends the one who's who's here just terrified by life Phoebe's brother I think Tammy he's he played that in our house I thank this and my name is sorrow as the character kind of like a bug a criminal on the Cape sort of trusting him and then he keeps that number dying and that sort of thing I think case %HESITATION he he's one of those once he paper asus and every now and again for an upset and stale certain you know %HESITATION see what has been recently blown using common sense guy got there in the world of tomorrow he's in a good two films a year three even someone from the heavens in a million ways to die in the west the U. basically played himself in that one and he's he's he repays avatar two and avatar three those are two scheduled to come out in two years he's in Selma need to see who is very first firms direct to video film called mowing drip Severine that's why this one is constant yeah he basically plays that character and certain programs won't exonerated of agency was someone's there is there is a big diagram to be to be drawn I think about well it's four eight eight nine DB user calls the culprit circle because it mentioned that Roman Coppola had been second unit director select him up too and he's picked up his older brother and older five six years %HESITATION and he's got a second unit director for Wes Anderson right so there seems to be a cluster of people who are happy together in this thing in the world firms who are happy to kind of exchange roles between themselves and the customer if it's hasn't produced by Americans artichoke that means that Francis Ford Coppola's monies by mistake secretary Sir yes I do well I think you just automatically get an exec producer credit if it's your production company but I'm not but also printed he would have done because I would say so I mean she I think there's I think there's damages either of him being on sets with her in earlier films certainly but she grew up on his film sets you know she was helping out all the time on his film sets you know she that was her world friendly Giovanni Ribisi is full name is I'm Tony knows Giovanni Ribisi plans the phone service he's forty three years old that is what he was seven two thousand three he would have been trained in such for the twenty eight when he was doing this and explain the husband of somebody who's eighteen and she's probably seventy she does have a baby face he does he really has the belief is that he looks really young in the phone like they did kind of like a fight the same maintenance which is quite scary but then I think with her it goes the other way as well and she sort of keeps playing people in their mid twenties for a long time somebody %HESITATION only VS democratic a cool thing where they've translated what the that the advert director was saying why it was that the interpretive summaries where I see terrible so this is one of the things is the director says Mr Bob you're sitting quietly in your study and then there's a bottle of Suntory whisky on top of the table you understand right with wholehearted feeling slowly look at the camera tenderly and if you're meeting old friends say the words as if your bogey in Casablanca saying he's looking at you kid Suntory time and then the entire process he was in town looking camera okay both this is vital he said okay so this is just you know and we're competing use explaining the meaning of the phones to thorough overall the report should be from yeah and because of its I'm just going to show you some interesting things about again found surrounding Basra it's counter intuitive in its structure because here we all are going right so about a quarter way through is going to be some sort of crisis and then offer if it is gonna be a low point in on those habits are quite the playing ground in and this just goes I'm not gonna lie on my two main characters made that way I don't know the main access those it depends because some activists say when I was when I watched it and it wasn't long night mmhm I was already watching a lot of indie film so bright you know were refreshing change from the conventions so that at the back for me that's that's the best phone the man that got away from this town and probably should be a lot more the time but it did have something lined K. rising tensions that's a contract after that you know but it's gentle it's it's very gentle but then you see the gentleness of of that sensitive than masks the racial issue so you know the problems that are in that the vacuous while they use social mobility for people who take phone calls all day hi exhausting it must be to be a part of you know there should taste these people here the people of Tokyo Hey are sort of fawning over Bob Harris and you just see even the people get out of it every day and I I mean it looks exhausting antics intends but then you go to a year to be the best temple when you say that %HESITATION well let's see and then the young I suppose but it said like you've got the busyness of the city and then she goes outside of the city you can't see sites sites be trained school started to city and sees kind of Japan yeah and that's per se and saying if you run with one from U. K. to go to London will be aware that there are possible under the law I've been very recently shaped by very recent tourists right but we wouldn't go full of London isn't in fact we just be aware that there are sent on the same policy of mine on the real one they seem to go Tokyo is entirely off issue and took care of some kind of a kind of blocked on Japan proper and one of things it is emphasizes that people in Turkey are we doing loads of smoking and that relative to the rest of Japan attempt here was a bit messy I think the film really wanted took care to be more Japanese and sense of being less westernized investments across that was missing in a in a kind of Japanese sense of just ever so slightly so yeah was it quite nostalgic quite simplistic about what Japanese this is what it should be I think it's well there's these tiny glimpses of Japanese people being Japanese and and I don't know if it's happy hounded or not because he owed it that you like you mentioned it's it's westernized both face ID Americanized imparts hasn't shown but then you go the moments like even mention that before we watch the film and what was it one of your students pointed right U. S. Charlotte is looking at what somebody's reading on the train and it's ghost in the shell of the manga ghost in the shadows and it's it there's a very college foreshadowing as well and of happening because she becomes much later no more recently for us not just stars in the film here live action version of that film about a sort of at the center of the idea of whitewashing this story and so you could ask a lot of questions about it caters Neal Conan alyssum and neo liberal economics what else going on and he was sort of SFA a couple the directives and data sometime in may it's from Tokyo and starring to westerners he had two Americans and two white Americans as well there's probably more complex things to unpack their but their sense depiction of it is because it's so old it's a subtle animated city say is her sort of glancing over and saying that that this person is reading a manga and it's just it's so quick that you have to really know what that is I think to recognize that it's ghost in the shell but if he did you recognize that as a defect heavy handed status this case is reading about specific my anger because J. K. three zero two thank you I can't I mean teenagers here today necessarily raids that you know there should venture whatever days they're popular culture things from their own culture all the time waited if either yesterday or the day the end of the next season my goodness and I'm amazed that made for Japanese people they're not made for us are not made for export they're just very very popular and exports but with the western influence here are made in the U. K. it's very normal to see a teenage boy after a year in a quicker than supposed to the guy on the train with probably the rate and I can Marvel comic you know %HESITATION and not a friend not a British one necessarily hide likely is it that it would be %HESITATION I'm get high and ideas and that it would be a gross Michelle probably kind of likely %HESITATION and it's just it's it is it's I mean it's a really interesting moments right interesting image it's part of a large Tempest in the film I've insistence is that America doesn't know shit about the rest of the world Americans go overseas they are going to feel the sense of bewilderment and just how much of the universe actually exists stuff that is not even imagines to exist on F. one Arkansas but the film hardly goes these people really need to learn from Japan so it's it's kind of it's awfully between going again markets really do need to open the rest of the world and caring Americans really don't convert to profit from buying stuff out of coaches we supposed as for independent market firm is exactly what you yeah and Americans I know once told me that the Americans to leave America are the ones here okay because they're receptive to other cultures and any American friends that I have if if you've had enough the ability to to go to Japan have obscenity from themselves and everything you know that everything I've learned but the language you know have gone to experience everything in order just in order to leave for the US to do any traveling you have to have already refused the doctrine of American exceptionalism because you have to have decided that America isn't necessarily the best country in the world to want to go and see other countries and so already the half way out the door even being a certificate marking well that's the thing because if it could take Watson American you know if there are you know pretty much everybody is from somewhere else really you know we haven't that entitles the the most powerful make those reservations the the idea that America is unique given that its population is entirely immigrants in native Americans have not being that for more than twenty thousand years I think it involves such fantastic metallization for a country that so young to regard itself as notes needing to learn anything from our server just having American characters who are failing is quite meaningful feeling and yet still incredibly well same thing was the videos and pictures and come to terms so that you know I I can't at no point can I ever feel sorry for them in any way a so I do have to do some work and distract yourself the latter end Alex Jones thing was being really angsty because she just hasn't really found have pasta yet that was kind of annoying if it was just the Florentine thing she's she's gonna once they learn a bit of okay I'll just stop and I'll just try thing and perhaps it will be rewarding but even that didn't go anywhere yeah that's a lot and and you don't see the whole class C. just sort of honing in on her and %HESITATION again it's like she's been she's made tends to just stay on the periphery and watch but she brought in she's been brought in from the door she's been taken away from her safe space on the threshold I brought in the %HESITATION so she hasn't fixtures yes Sir it is R. Y. A. N. they brought her in try try to hurt and it's her fault that there's a language barrier because she had no point has advertised and the Japanese even spending a lot of time in Japan so the onus is on her to communicate your both for all of them man a and and none of them are doing that and not not trying they basically Giovanni BBC's character at least he says a couple of words you know I mean the second sort of ironically but at least he says some Japanese but none of that you know what I fall open chart it's just data and this is the other cues in the tissue the firm wants its viewers to judge them for that because of the most intense version of this is when they go to the hospital and everyone speaking to them in Japanese and as three different instances of people speaking in Japanese and they the acting and the cinematography is just full of cues to guide this is already funny rather than queues together these count as righteously suffering from not being able to communicate with that for humans at this point actually the a very stressful situation it said that this person is clearly trying to communicate so intimate and I don't know whether my ito's broken or not can you make understand what's going on I was I was forced to let %HESITATION cliff today at work of for some for some reason you cheap nothing's I want to see all of %HESITATION Crimson Tide intellectual and Crimson Tide Tony Scott amazing film for its shit tension anyway the but the you too bye the time I want to see that it was a bit where the submarine is damaged and sinking down from the ocean and that's a kind of a readout saying what that that says I'm the chief of the boat his job it is just kind of say that what's happening to them to the main character played by Denzel Washington he was reading out the death and he was basically he was saying what like in about a minute the interests of mine's gonna be crushed by the pressure because we're going down beneath the lowest tax we should go and we're gonna die right he was reading of these numbers with the sense of after resignation and after calmness and I thought no no matter how much ministry training you've got all that B. S. lying Ted you have anxiety in your voice as you read out the steps reading saying it were approaching hoe crossed out so we've got basically seconds they'll be a sense of tension in your voice and it seems that both %HESITATION Scott Hansen and Bill Murray had been instructed to adult that sense of calmness about their surroundings where if they get told animated it's in comedy whether using the lack of communication for comedic purposes and they both did that come with the very well and it seems that they had been deliberately put up against people who actually couldn't communicate with them it wasn't that these people he did speak English but we're just speaking Japanese becomes the role habit with merry sitting next to that tunnel one %HESITATION and has just felt very documented like because I think also the the the Spanien and then the two women I think it was fines were paid yeah so that that seem to be let's just use this opportunity to %HESITATION to have Bill Murray doing some more things to state just develop ari for ten minutes yeah because it didn't work out just how much complete would have just sat down with a mental illness and gun okay you read the script for the same but actually screw that just advise you know Brady will have to go %HESITATION indeed just invented the scene completely from scratch and so I'll stick that on the phone sep things we must do right so I obviously need to do some short duration calculation %HESITATION color palette yes lots of kind of blue gray yeah this one that's also soft pinks just some view seven nine again you got the the radio five print branch of the singer and the bar just cheering the same species and various law black someone specific opera I think lots of pastel shades might not come apart it's not what comes to mind so you know what what ma'am is a civic up with what comes to mind is a simple reason contact number they should this sort of grace and the soft pinks yeah this is I think was physically with the whole misty eyed female protagonist who's mainly made of special treatments as well I think that was something that yeah I think virtual commit cinematography or here all of the devices that are you psych yourself focus but also the Long Island says flattening meaning there's a kind of softness and weightlessness so things about commentary this kind of with the colors as well almost as that you even her hair does she have her hair because the kind of I don't know which color option or strawberry blonde or you know that sort of thing should kind of tend to threaten that fits blondes or is and her and love her earlier films Johnson this the blonde and %HESITATION that a lot of very later films your hair should be dark chords you read in the Marvel films Hank recesses something between it's sort of a summer squash time but there's a softness to her hair color even under the clothes all of her clothes that she wears she initiates if grace for shoes she's wearing white and black as well sometimes but there's usually some gray on her hands the peel skin softness and she's not a neo should not have they made up like a lot of the other women can change to do comparisons between how close the camera gets to his face and clothes to come against her face because there's lots of Hey I'm kind of looking bemused insurance on his own but where he was surrounded by quite a space and then there's quite a lot of her when she was on her own room looking and you need to buy the world court comes out you will be useful to to see how close the camera gets to her office convinced him given the choice here is okay going to do this story in Japan and in Tokyo let me kind of how it's just going to come from the the basic fundamental colors of Tokyo so it's going to be giving up going to be a lot of the online and the coupler that we think of is a couple where she gets to decide exactly what I said looks like and that's a later period directive it's got more power so as that's one thing we ought to be aware of and courageous is that anyone that careers when they don't have the power to just create the entire story space from scratch it does feel like facing relocations most of the time and maybe the %HESITATION the constructions are the stats for the adverts so are the TV shows and things I did think when she went to Kyoto that there was a sense there of just getting the best for to stay current on one day and they couldn't come back another day they only had one ticket because when she was walking in the shoes will do with the axe if the big area that she wasn't it was too dangerous show it was twilight it seems that someone who just waited too long before trying to get that show and some of the options the gas with a lecture com and so they just come okay fine several forty something make do with what we can with this weather down looking sharp in a specimen of just tied into the overall theme of it's never really Danish number you know and there's no real sense of time or what time of day it is it's quite big hits and if it's any time we do kind of like the time you know %HESITATION it's four AM yeah there was the wrong time and set you know so there's that but %HESITATION so she kind of goes on these trips and you don't know how long she's she's like her the whole day pass what time of year is it because it seems like it gets a bit cold so are the days quite short yeah you've got this disconnect with time because they're trying to communicate with people here in the United States and that's the whole other end of the day your name you know because Japan's right at the starch and there most of the world to play right yeah of course yes Sir yes because you're right about the sun traveling that's it I mean they're just remember where the international dateline this so I suppose flying between the US and Japan you cross the international dateline yeah back yeah was it no you go forward because it because it's it's it's under the rising sun it's the first country that gets the the Nikkei right even ability maybe that maybe the whole the couple thing is you want my comes to move screw you on the phone my fancy moves in with and and when I do move them they're going to move a lot and then it's going to be brief and I'm gonna leave you wanting more that's my mobile phone my hypothesis to test if that's how she does things service management just announced a so I can actually discuss one of the phone but my student who was writing observe a couple is discussing although she's looking out for so what is the other one for she's actually only directed I think six commercial features virgin suicides is for sure and I think about this or second one I think the lesson translation I think she was nominated for the Oscar Davis and she cheated playing ram think protects the lawn service to be catalysts last year really missing in the middle there Stephanie Moore Sir short short short short video short serve first commercial feature film versions or something then lost in translation then my internet then some way which has Stephen Dorf elle fanning crisp punches after withdrawing to the chateau Marmont oppression was Hollywood actor resemblances life when his eleven year old daughter surprises in the visit somewhere Vernon this one which is debatable the seven is the bling ring then last like chopping off to which was a recording of an upper or was it doesn't offer a better known as Sofia Coppola's laughter and then the book out there seven M. counterbalanced she's care operations are sides posted translation Marin tonight somewhere the bling ring and the card of the six commercial feature films she has so she is also the director of a very merry Christmas in twenty fifteen linemates and Netflix thing bill Murray worries no one will show up to his TV show you too are terrible snowstorm in New York City they seem to have ever seen snowed in of the house of my house it's a it's a Disney Christmas special thing where a bunch of Disney cartoon characters %HESITATION hang out together because the real snowed in Mickey's place because it serves no this seems to basically be thing of musical numbers it's got Michael cera and Nuni Miley Cyrus Amy Poehler turn any pair thing that's kind of unpleasant so Christmas carols will be sung it's a produced by Americans are his favorite seems very much like the Star Wars holiday special something that people will be regretting it it's gonna set fine very whites and probably after video from or something and almost none so what are the other films you honestly say you can talk transaction absolutely internet and the bling ring transaction services I have not seen and yet for one thing we have to play with his students said Hey you know speak up with color palettes you must be a way of turning an entire film into it into a kind of power and I said well I'm pretty sure it's it's studies there is still in the dark color palette generators online that you can use you just upload an image and just turn into a color swatch forty and we did that and we found out for them and you can do that but then there any method that I could think of for actually showing the color palette of an entire film would be the classic fun the first few frames of the film look at what the time is for that and then take a still from that and then from every minute subscribe to that and then present as overly small on the page so that you create a pay a single page with perhaps ninety if there's staples and that gives you a sense of the overall look of the film and it's quite a rush thing there's going to be surprised that it can take every single frame of the film and just lay them over each other without moving a website where somebody had done yeah there's artists he rendered films and so their color palettes our or that kind of thing you've taken maybe not every film but freedom from every man that her whatever it is that every ten minutes you know for the phone to make that sort of abstract image from the colors seem more which was lots of images this later for each other and it was a dingy but you could see there was some Scott at the top so it's kind of a movie and actually be a horizon in the shop and that was quite yellow thing anyway we need more of these data visualization tools teaching because everyone's using a sinister for calling today who is coding on a computer hi Laura what do you do yeah it's cool just working out a bit of extra code to have put data labels drops that mine myself working the spectrum for what why do we regard this stuff with such antagonism in culture studies from the inggris %HESITATION just fifteen yeah but I'm not getting a lot of food and it's definitely concerning that kind of data because a lot tell us about culture you know if we analyze the film in the hallway yeah that's the sort of thing that New York film programs we should be doing you should be teaching that because if I had you know I thought how to finish paying when I was in my two great I would have thought anything of it but it's just been a natural way of collecting data at least sort of while I do my education and well into teaching the four realized actually that's a perfectly legitimate way of doing this you have to just sit and watch something and that's why it's actually for the film itself it's a document that's the primary taxed it's your data source you know so there's all these different why she should be able to use that I feel like I'm not good enough and miles for any other so I have the time but you probably if you had the programs that can sort of crunch well at that could rape the data for you and your P. two P. J. separation isolation and then finalize what it is presenting a lot not my main you know what like what is the significance of this is like something like Mad Max fury road for example if you've got the stark contrasting today's %HESITATION sort of yellow oranges felons and they're something they're not but to be able to see that printers across total fell on the punctuated with mechanical dark gray dark green does color should machinery the industrial in the middle of the desert that would be fascinating to see integrating again at the nitty gritty of what what's the significance of the sign of circumcision today who haven't she points out something that I had actually not just gently wafted students towards this observation in class I'd gone so anyone want to speculate about how many times in saving private Ryan we get a point of view shots from Germans I won't have to go she would perhaps look at one or two of them I don't want to take us to a point where we see a point of usual virgin certain of within within ten minutes amounts to point out to them that the only point of view shots of Germans we get into any private Ryan it down the barrels of guns okay seven students in the US for specific module discussing seven private run at one point says exam program the only point of view shots we get Germans down the pros and cons and so I think hopefully you understand and then the students to see figure four figure four one still of the German looking down again appointee shortcut German looking down a machine gun I don't want to I wrote in the %HESITATION in the margins so why don't we have five fifties stills here because you've made a claim about the entirety of the film you don't of course have to shows every single still which is the point of view shot from German but she wasn't a fistful of evidence why don't you be a bit more ambitious about how much evidence as possible to get all of that would have been five minutes to turn a one still figure into a five still figure to turn his example to his own patent Christine Tom quite K. demonstrations patents to something much more comfortable doing that with that whatever they're looking at so they did that so so in the next it's difficult when I kiss I would never have thank you we were discouraged from Peyton stills and our %HESITATION essays and I was an undergrad which is why I think it's still sort of alien to make the trip mostly because the formatting and she's and we can afford to print thing frankly you have to pick a fight it out for you straighten well at the moment this week in the point where within a year or two will be marking up tightly and even if we're even now women not list of submitting electronically server again actually the students prints out on black and white the Macon came about color I have no excuse to censor student or use your prints in color because they said misting comedy about trying to and I can go and see right I've sent to students and their educations when I say you ought to put stones in your cities because it's a way of providing us with evidence in support of your points when they go what really gets me is we can put stills are saved in response to the recent on that part just imagine doing an analysis of a poem but yeah I never allowed to quote yeah that well that's the thing if I'm going to vaguely described you go fuck off I'm going to quote from this part thank you Sir but this was still says I've always find is that students always expect the image to speak for them and that's fine with me I'm a license from the student rather than this does yes it is but that's not good I I I always stressed anytime she can somehow Skullcandy still to say yes but only on the condition that you use it with your tax you have to talk through it it's like a quotation you have to spend time with it you can't just expect me to get to the answer for you Hey you have to tell me what he say and then I managed to get about two thirds of this bill but doing it but you have the remaining third state they wouldn't referred to them they wouldn't even put a put a caption on them to see figure six and that was it it would be figure six come on brief description just sign of a most of the time at the recent ness decoration they weren't he centers okay thanks and I'm not in the Russian city try though there were diversions often he he really tried but it didn't go into the final steps you know that we just say oh and and it's it's kinda Shaw and this is what's happened thank right well what color what about what's going on with that I can hear south not significant and a crime seller you know would like tell me more about it like mine at within an inch of its life really use it but there's no anxiety if I just right that's that indicate it's not have to get over the rest of stuff and I don't think there's enough of I mean even when you do try and tell students like rarely take more detail on fears things it's better but there's a there's an anxiety but stopped because Philly could not cover enough and they let my classic one is students using a still just to show that a character is played by a certain well the you noticed that grid with the name of the person you played that card for is that %HESITATION thank you %HESITATION I think there is one I use and a and a lecture once I'm on stage coach was here this is how the star instantiation that's to stop painting it was really hard actually to get it and just from the sound process very swift this is not a way and it's %HESITATION become which is very certain they may sell up to John lan as he turns around and stage coach and that's high and chase the banks are showing he's been capped away from me one of those looming in with dollies yeah it's one of those the senescent enough until the up as well yeah wow you should really be in orders it's kind and it lasts for a couple of seconds it's really fast and it's just like basis meaning folks this isn't just an arbitrary thing in the film and it's it's both and she sang this iconic actor that's one of his thirty sounds but he's already well known face recognize both but also this is like this is your me and guy and I found the years with big moment in those tiny thing Tampa Bay lost in translation to refer it to say that that is a very but that could have been pretty just just take it off I think the first ten seconds off and then the OP guess what film which I think we go park a series get we'll get something it should be fast moving crates but others are first because it was awful so we'll get back to if you find our discussion of lost in translation interesting or useful please share it and subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode many thanks to those of you who do so already the podcast is free and I work freelance if you can help financially with a regular payments to pitching on dot com forward slash PP a bladder that would be greatly appreciated payments are in U. S. dollars at the moment the exchange rates with the British point is roughly seventy pence to the dollar so pledging around two dollars a month which cost you no more than one point fifty eight if you can spare it it would be a huge help in making arts and humanities education accessible in a world that's increasingly driven by screen and media cultures thanks so much and catch you next time
Welcome to the Audiovisual Cultures web resource!
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