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Audiovisual Cultures episode 84 – Selling Democracy: Examining Language in No automated transcript


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this is audiovisual cultures the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and cultural production with me paula blair visit patreon.com forward slash av cultures to find out more and to join the pod this is a run through of a talk i’m going to give to a friend’s ma module called language and film and television my presentation is called selling democracy examining language in no i’ve been doing some comparative research on the use of archival footage in the 2012 films no and good vibrations and this was by way of expanding outwards and starting to do comparative studies from my research on film and visual culture in contemporary post-agreement inverted commas post-conflict northern ireland and the comparison was to examine the ways cultural products dealing with the past so these two feature films that deal directly with the past so they’re based on true stories they’re versions they’re imaginings of a truth they’re not trying to be truthful be or give accurate accounts but they both are grounded in actual history by use of archival material and i wanted to examine the different ways that they both do that and i’ve been doing that recently on my blog before i left academia that was an article i was working on with intention to send it to a journal but things went very wrong and i got very ill and it’s taken me a few years to find my way back to it and try to do something with that because it was that’s quite a late stage of drafting that all of that happened and i’d done so much research that i wanted to try and revive that again also thinking about it in light of you know because noah’s about the referendum the plebiscite in chile that resulted in a return to democracy of a kind and i think just seeing that thinking about that again in the light of what’s happened in the uk after the eu referendum and a very slim majority wanting to leave without really knowing what that is and i think you know it’s about a not just so slim majority wanting to move into democracy but again not necessarily quite knowing what they’re voting for so just some very broad reduced context of history-ish of chile the republic of chile is a former colony of spain it has a long history of resistance to any kind of rule from the pitches the indigenous people of that part of latin america they lived independently from the incas when the region was under inca rule and then when spain colonized again they continued to have a very successful resistance and live independently of from the colony and then in 1818 chile was declared independent and a republic in its own right and then in around 1888 the republic had essentially quashed them a pitches they were really very marginalized they were beaten back and things have really changed substantially for them in the past 140 years geographically because i think that’s important and i’ll talk a little bit in more depth about the geography of chile in a bit it’s a long strip on the southern cone that is surrounded by natural frontiers so in the north it’s got the atacama desert which is the driest place on earth to the west it’s got the south pacific and many many islands off the west coast to the east it’s really shaped in the east by the andes and bordered by argentina on the east and then on the site at various sites because it curls around the size of the cone that southern part is really bordered by the antarctic you know across this long strip of a country you’ve got really extreme temperatures and real extremes in humidity in this one country the different parts of it just have very very differing geographical features and so those natural frontiers make it shaped a bit like an island even though it’s part of a really huge subcontinent and it’s really interesting if you look at the film by patrice yogusman the pearl button who he goes through that geography and describes it as very similar to an archipelago really because of the islands and it’s for the islands where a lot of the pitches still are and they’re really quite pushed out and marginalized there’s not just so many of them in mainland chile anymore industrially chile is probably best known for its mineral resources it’s a major global exporter of copper and lithium i mean so many of our batteries and things anything you have that is run by batteries lithium has very likely come from chile and probably similar with a lot of the copper that we all use and that is in all of our basic appliances and things in the early 1970s i think the election was it was 1969 or 1970 under democracy a socialist government was elected with salvador allende as president and in 1973 this was overthrown in quite a shock military coup then the junta that followed this that was led by general augusto pinochet ruled for 16 years and during that time thousands of people were killed or disappeared or interned and tortured in detention camps or they were exiled and particularly the exile that’s an important point when we think about no this is in part a reason why i am very interested in the comparison between northern ireland and chile because i think a lot of that geography but a lot of those figures i think have crunched numbers a bit and if you look at the likes of population size and then percentages of how many people this involves it’s quite similar in number even though the scales are vastly different and so i think it’s really useful i think in terms of affectivity and i suppose having empathy for each other and seeing those connections where people are marginalized and they’re fighting for the rights the culture that comes from that in a ways that we use cultural products like films to try and come to terms with the past and try and hold account to the past even when we might be on the side of a thing it’s not necessarily a good or the best thing it’s really quite a tricky one ethically this one so noel directed by pablo loren and this is really the third in his loose pinochet trilogy released in 2012 it’s a critical reimagining of the plebiscite held in 1988 looking specifically at the no campaign and so the no vote was to say no to eight more years of penichet automatically without an election and no one by i think it was a 56 percent electorate majority there was a general election in 1990 and pinichat lost a consultation government so a coalition socialist government was then fairly consistent until recent years so we really were thinking about the way that this film looks back to that past this session is really about thinking through different approaches to language and this from i think from a more very very broad strokes linguistic point of view which is the angle the module is coming up this is for so some general discussion points around this i’ve got subtitling in there but i’m not really going to get into that myself but that’s something i’m encouraging the class to look at but things that will point out things like cultural currency and what does that mean what does that communicate accents and exiles because i think uh just looking at gay garcia bernal is really important for that and why casting him is so significant and then communication through song and dance and thinking about indigenous people in their languages what i’m really going to focus on in the rest of the session i’ll look at it a bit in the presentation but then when i move on into looking at the film and sequences from a film we’re going to look at film language because that’s probably where i come in really as the outsider to the class is thinking through aspects of film language that students from a linguistic point of view will necessarily have the terminology for so to think about international cultural currency what i mean by that just looking specifically at the star of the film gail garcia bernal he’s probably the only actor in the film that would be internationally recognizable the rest are all very well known in chile but not really well known unless you specifically seek out chilean film and so gail garcia bernal brings a huge amount of star part people will go to see no in the cinema because it’s a girl garcia bernal film he has that kind of attraction but also he’s important because actors can be indoor texts they bring baggage with them from their previous projects and i think specifically in this because as we’ll look at in a bit his character renee sevedra one of the ways that he traverses santiago and surrounding areas is on a motorcycle and one of the things garcia bernal will have been famous for at this point is starring as the young ernesto che guevara in the motorcycle diaries from 2004 there’s just um an evocation there of this guy has played revolutionaries before and i think renee is an accidental revolutionary in a way because he really wants to stay out of it and he gets embroiled in it his character is very interesting because he’s an amalgamation of many different people he’s an individualized fiction of lots of different people who ran the campaign i think through him that’s where the marketing language is really dissected and investigated it’s probed and i think the film takes a skeptical in the sense of stepping back and looking at the details considering the evidence using skeptical in that way when i say he takes a skeptical look at such a character he’s also somebody who’s multilingual he brings a lot with him because we’ve seen him in francophone and anglophone films quite a lot too he’s really recognizable also importantly for this film he’s distinctive because of his mexican accent and that’s really important because his character rene sevedra has been an exile he is a returned exile so that’s notable and he’s somebody who is in stark contrast to people he encounters of his father’s generation and who know his father who end up walking out of the campaign he’s leading because they’re so disgusted at the marketing language that he brings to it and the way he’s packaging and selling the idea of happiness through democracy he’s somebody who doesn’t quite sit right with everyone so he’s this insider outsider he’s got this ambivalent personality that all comes through in his mexican accent so to think a bit more about that i think there’s a sense of betrayal from his father’s contemporaries and colleagues and friends you get the sense that because this is somebody who’s referred to as being known well by the leaders of the new campaign it’s likely this person is a known socialist he’s talked about in present tense which is an indication that either he is a disappeared person and they don’t know what’s happened to him or this is somebody who’s still in exile he remains in exile presumably in mexico because it’s not safe but we don’t get the details of that this is just something unspoken that is implied that we just have to make conclusions about from knowing the context i think it is very important to just stress that he is a combination of lots of different real people and there’s not really a personal criticism on any one person it’s really just taking a critical look at the campaign and how it operated and how the ads went because it resulted in democracy but what kind of flavor of democracy was it and again this is where there’s a similarity with the northern ireland peace agreement and that it’s a very uneasy piece and there are things that people have had to let go that really cause a lot of harm and i think something very similar has happened in democracy coming to chile where it hasn’t necessarily been better for everybody so just a little bit more an accent i think it’s notable that on the yes campaign the initial i’m not sure if the name of the character has ever actually said i haven’t managed to clarify this to searches but the guy who seems to be initially leading the the yes marketing campaign is argentinian and so he is presented as a sympathetic outsider from a parallel political situation in the bordering country so this is 1988 and earlier in that decade argentina had recently emerged from its own military dictatorship and it was in substantial international debt and so i think the idea here is that the character in presenting to the yes board on which there are military leaders there are very right-wing politicians this is somebody who is telling them quite candidly you know we wish we had a pain a chat because our country’s in a bit of a mess now since we moved back to democracy rather than dictatorship and so you guys are super lucky and we’re super jealous so it’s that attitude that he brings to it he has a very romantic vision of life under dictatorship because he is from the status quo he is not somebody who would be in any way marginalized or his rights impinged on those are more things that are very useful to think about in terms of aspects of language so if we think then about national cultural currency now a really fascinating part of no and one of the reflexive things that it does is you have real people coming in and re-performing those earlier versions of themselves so an example is patricio bagnados who was very well known very recognizable in chile a broadcast journalist from a left side of the political spectrum we need to check the details if you want to look into this more yourself as far as i’m aware he was somebody who hadn’t really been allowed to work properly for a while he was somebody who was suppressed by the dictatorship and so he is recruited by the new campaign to do a lot of the presenting of the new television segments so this idea that they had 15 minutes a day in the run-up to the election so he was doing a lot of work with those and it’s really interesting because you have scenes where it has the actual man playing himself about 23 years earlier that’s just one example there are loads of examples of this because a lot of the players in the new video so a lot of the singers a lot of the actors they come back and they re-perform and they have recreated costumes and they’re all of course visibly older because they’re all supposed to be reasonably young and carefree in the videos and of course they’re 20 odd years older and so that’s clear young people who were saying their 20s before first time around they’re now in their mid 40s and 50s and so on and so everybody looks visibly older and so there’s a very conscious device happening here where it’s this collapse of the past and the present for me anyway they evoke this feeling of it’s still not over they’re still campaigning for this it’s still very much in the present because things are not as they should be for society so there’s a lot of that there are a lot of recognizable people from the real world in this film as well if we think about that then because if we think about the archival footage we have something that’s really very poignant in the film and we can think about dance as language and what that communicates so if we think about the quicker i’m not sure of the pronunciation there so forgive me if i’m getting that wrong this isn’t a dance that depicts according ritual i think specifically it’s between a rooster and a hen the idea is that it’s associated with rural laborers so it’s the courtship between a farmer and a rural woman this is something that was appropriated by pinochet’s dictatorship it was declared as the national dance of chile in 1979 so this is a good six years into the dictatorship and awful atrocities happening to the people lots of oppression of rural people there’s an absence of men because it’s mostly men who are the ones who get arrested get interned or disappeared and so on just at the mirrors hint that they could be dissenters a protest to this was the women who were say the spices of men who had been killed or disappeared or exiled the spices to people who had been lost to the dictatorship in some way they would dance this cording dance alone and visibly alone in collectives and so this is something that is used to very poignant effects in the campaign and it’s focused on a bit during the film and i think specifically renee isn’t happy about the inclusion of this because he’s trying to paint a picture of the joy that will come to chile when they vote for democracy he’s very much of the school of let’s move on and forget the past shall we i think in part because he’s been shielded from it he’s been very far away in mexico which is very far north from chile it feels like a world away it’s a whole subcontinent away he’s been very distant from the whole thing but also economically it doesn’t affect him his life doesn’t change he’s not really even that interested and he keeps complaining that everything’s a drag he doesn’t like the pulling of the heartstrings that this does he doesn’t want people to feel sad he wants people to feel joyous and he wants to manipulate them into buying no as a product buying in to know basically again thinking about more marginal ways of communicating the pitches they make up something like 85 percent of the indigenous people in chile and i highly recommend if you watch the pearl button there’s quite a lot from them in interviews where you know they speak their own language and explaining i think there’s some so i need to re-watch it actually if i remember correctly they talk quite a bit about really having to cling on to their own language and it being very marginalized and that spanish is really taking over and specifically in in the film no their absence is notable there’s an absence of them visually but references to them are very much implied so the pitches they are talked about and very derogatory language is used about them specifically by lucha guzman who is the boss of renee and the the advertising company that they seem to work for he also becomes the leader of the s campaign so renee is equivalent on yes when he’s talking about demo pitches to one of the other yes campaign leaders he uses homophobic and racist slurs there’s an acknowledgement of the erasure of indigenous peoples in the misunsen so in the decor of a restaurant that we see renee and luchuwin early on there’s a jungle-like setting it’s not fully clear there’s a figure that’s quite possibly inca or i’m a pichi but it’s quite a fetishized image of a native that idea so again there’s just this acknowledgment that there’s erasure of these people going on they don’t have a voice but they’re fetishized for a themed restaurant for example so again they’re used to buy and sell notably when the first televised campaigns go out and there’s a long sequence in which everybody is watching the no one and then straight after the yes video there’s a pardon in the s segment with rapa nui children singing for pinichat so some of the lyrics in this song are mahu ariki nui the child you see her visibly crying as she’s singing these words and maori this means healed great lord i think it’s appropriated as quite a patriotic bent there’s footage of this child who’s very scantily clad because she’s in traditional married dress traditional polynesian dress of the general hugging and kissing her in the context in which this is presented you don’t know why this girl’s crying i think in the montage that it’s put into it’s presented as if she’s just so proud but you don’t know if she’s crying because she’s made to do this and she’s actually miserable who knew who knows or did it means so much to her and then he’s on a photo opportunity where he needs to look like well i love all of my peoples including these um polynesian people on easter island which is a geopolitical territory of chiles so there’s a very propagandist thing going on it’s does he actually care about indigenous people well he certainly goes to great lengths to look as if he does and i think this is very notable because if you look in contrast at the no campaign there’s an absence these people aren’t there at all yes acknowledge them and they acknowledge them in quite negative ways or presented as positive but actually very appropriating ways and this is so important because no just doesn’t acknowledge them you would think that yes being shown to be derogatory towards them would imply that the no leftist people would be true socialists and that they are fighting the corner of the indigenous people as well but they’re just completely absent and so i think that absence that silence is amplified by the fact that they’re actually acknowledged at least even if it is in derogatory ways by the yes campaign so i think there’s actually quite a lot to unpick there and so just to think then a little bit more about that geography so if you’re watching on the video on screen i’ve got a map view of chile in the south pacific you can really see the difference because marked by the pin is where easter island is or rapa nui and how very far away from santiago it is and mainland chile you can also just see this series of islands that chili bricks sign into there too and then it’s just this long strip along the bottom cone and it breaks up into many many islands i think it’s interesting to point this out from a language point of view because if you look up some information on rapa nui today it seems like spanish is becoming increasingly popular as a language and marry less so and i think politically if it’s of interest if you want to explore this further i’ve written about this in a blog recently just tracking to quite severe swings between left and right in the government of chile and it’s interesting because in chile the same president cannot hold office two terms in a row so i think in a way from a very uninformed point of view i’m suggesting that it feels like there’s just this continual every four years passing between right and left right and left right and left governments because you can’t return the same president for two terms in a row you can return the same president innumerable times but they just can’t hold office two terms in a row and if somebody’s really popular so it has been passing between the same two people for a while now so it’s been a socialist and then a billionaire right winger and back and forth and back and forth for a bit it’s indicative of a country that today doesn’t really know where it stands on these things it can’t settle and then there’s no type of government that can really get a good run up things to maybe address issues the socialist coalition different parties made this up and that’s why you’ve got that six banded rainbow because those colors each represent the sex parties involved in the coalition they between them were in par for let’s say from 1990 until was it 20 i’m not oh i can’t remember neither year but i think definitely 2010 somebody right wing was voted in i remember that because it was the same year that david cameron became prime minister in the uk with the coalition government so i think for nearly 20 years don’t quote me on that do check but i think for a good block of time it was passed between different socialist parties i think there was tremendous frustration at the idea of well we’re just gonna throw up a monument to these things and then not really ever dealing with anything that happened and so i think a lot of people got off scot-free including pinochet himself i mean he remained leader of the army for a good few years and then when he retired he was wanted in many countries and he was arrested in london at one point but he never was charged for anything he was never charged for his crimes and his human rights abuses he got away with everything and he died in 2004 he got off scot-free so and no one from his administration as far as i’m aware has ever encountered any justice for um anything that happened there’s just a huge amount going on in this one film that you could go off and explore keeping it relevant to thinking about language you know it’s really important to think then about i think the song sequences in those parts with the rapa nui language the maori language songs because they come up in the subtitles i think no matter what language you have your subtitles in they come up in the roman characters it’s the maori that you’re reading so you don’t actually know what is being said in the song so this is something i had to search for and figure it out i think there’s nothing from them pictures speaking at all in it so thinking then about where i come in with thinking about language you’re thinking about the film language and this so i’ve already mentioned things like elements of the misunsense specifically decor so what are we talking about when we say reading film language so the four main areas to breakdown is cinematography editing nissan and sound so the cinematography is everything to do with camera so that includes where it’s positioned proximity what kind of focus has it got what kind of lens has it got what kind of camera is it is it digital is it film is it 16 millimeters at 35 what’s the focus like is there a focus rack is it on a zoom is it not is it moving is it static what kind of movement is it is it panning is it dollying is it zooming is it dolly zooming so there’s loads of areas to go with that with editing we’re thinking about everything to do with how the film is put together and plays out on screen this is the cutting what way is it cut what kind of transitions are we seeing are we thinking about in camera editing are we thinking about editing styles are we thinking about very long takes or are we thinking about lots of cuts happening in a short space of time what is the structure of the film those sorts of questions then with misonsen this is everything we can see in the frame and so this includes lots of elements so this includes colors that we’re seeing it includes the actors where actors or things are positioned so they’re blocking it can include where they are relative to the camera at any time the props the decor the lighting is their shadow is there not what’s going on with costumes what are people wearing where are they what’s their location what’s their setting are they inside are they outside what sort of building is it uh what sort of place are they in all of those sorts of things so absolutely everything that you see is the amazon sen then with sound with the audio this is everything you can hear and this could be music and this can be diegetic or non-diegetic or extra diegetic music and dialogue can be sound effects or a voiceover whether it’s in stereo or mono what the balance is and i think the balance is a really interesting one with no because if you haven’t already i highly recommend watching know with headphones on because some very interesting stuff is going on in the sign balance it switches between your ears depending on what you’re seeing and i think there’s something in that relationship those are the sorts of things that we’re thinking about because all of these things on their own and working in conjunction with each other they all communicate loads of stuff without the film actually blatantly telling you things just some examples from this so earlier i had mentioned when i was talking about cultural currency i mentioned that gail garcia bernal had starred in the motorcycle diaries and i think it’s pretty significant that one of his vehicles of choice and the one that we see him use the most and know as renee cevedra is a motorcycle so i want to think about what kind of vehicle is this it’s a solitary use vehicle pretty much it has connotations of being alone being strong being independent being free and free is the key word because it’s a sense of freedom and happiness through freedom that renee sells as an advertising designer an executive so on screen if you’re seeing it is a still from the film of him on the open road he’s quite central in the frame he’s outside the city of santiago he’s on his way to a big choice where they’re all going to get together and discuss the campaign okay so this is evocation then of freedom so he’s on a country road he’s flanked by trees and countryside and so i think this is a really notable image of renee this is one of the ways that we can start to learn about his character through looking at the ways in which he moves through space so another one this next shot i want to look at is a shot of renee on another one of his vehicles of choice the skateboard so what kind of vehicle is this well it’s a single occupancy vehicle again it’s a sequence in which he is in a very carefree way just sailing on down the road he’s weaving around things it’s a very 80s sense of freedom as well because i mean i for one i can’t really look at especially a grown man on a skateboard and not think about back to the future not think about marty mcfly especially with the jeans and the type of trainers that renee savage is wearing at this point you know in the shirt hanging out from under his jacket the very 80s hair he’s got this little tiny it’s not even a ponytail it’s just this little very eeries his hair is verging on a mullet and then just this one long length of hair in the middle and so you can see that a bit from the back view of him on the skateboard and so again there’s there’s just this characterization of him as a lone wolf type character he traverses space with ease he’s very comfortable with being on his own you know even though he has a small child he’s very often leaving him with the nanny he doesn’t use his car all that often so he he has a car and it’s ref i think it’s referenced more than he actually uses it you see him more in the skateboarder in the motorcycle and he’s never carrying anything he never has a bag or anything even though he’s supposedly working on stuff all of the time he’s very mobile and so i get this idea especially when we see him on the skateboard and he’s waving around he’s not really holding a straight line or anything and it’s very early on in the film we see him on the skateboard i think it’s this idea of his mobility and the ease with which he moves he veers left and right because i think he’s very malleable at this point i think he becomes more rigid as the film goes along and he’s in a more you know the motorcycle in the car you need to stick to your lane basically whereas in this he’s in his lane but he’s veering around so i think that’s pretty significant and that’s a clip that with the class i want to look at try to do a sequence analysis on this because other things going on here are there’s a lot of sun flare okay so there’s this idea that it’s very early morning it’s a very bright sun we’re southern hemisphere so i guess it’s spring in october so i think this is a very springtime sun if i’m right about that very long shadows lots of sunflower going on the camera is very mobile we see renee from a lot of different angles and importantly this is one example of nanny where the camera crosses the line okay it crosses the invisible both the 180 and 30 degree rule lines it’s quite disorientating it’s just a little bit jarring it’s not hugely jarring because i think this happens where the camera is actually moving it’s not cutting when it does this but it’s jarring in the sense that your position has changed and your point of view of looking at renee is changed within the shot so i think again there’s something going on there that really needs to be probed a bit more so this is a point where for the class that’ll be running i intend to then have a more general discussion and if anybody has any specific questions about anything that’s where i will want to draw on those and then also look at sequence analysis and look at parts that i think are very notable and demonstrate those issues in film language that i think are important and should be useful to bring to a module that’s coming from more of a linguistic point of view some recommended viewing if you want to try to get up to speed on a lot of these broader issues initially i highly recommend just about any film by patricio guzman but i think especially the pearl button and nostalgia for the light really very beautiful deeply moving and quite difficult to watch at times but highly worth it films from 2010 and 2015 and he himself is in exile and has been living in europe since the early 70s but also from the 1970s the battle of chile i think they’re really important films to try and get up to speed with a lot of the issues that would help fill out the backdrop i’d also recommend tony monero and post-mortem which again are very difficult films to watch but are really worth watching if you get through them and they are the first two of this loose pinichet trilogy from pablo lorraine they’re all linked by the actor alfredo castro who plays lucho guzman the leader of the yes campaign in no he plays the lead character in tony monero who is obsessed with tony monero in the film saturday night fever and he’s a bit of a microcosmic look at a type of dictator character and he’s also in postmortem as a morgue worker who falls in love with i think she’s a dancer who seems to be a revolutionary so those are very difficult views but they’re really worth watching if you can and for the class i’ve also supplied a bit of a reading list that isn’t on here a few details on the last side just if people want to get in touch and check out the rest of what i do including a link to my blog where i have been writing about know quite recently thank you very much for visiting my page this has been a cozy peapod production with me paula blair the music is common ground by airton used under a creative commons 3.0 non-commercial license and is downloadable from ccmixter.org episodes release every other wednesday subscribe on apple podcasts spotify amazon music or wherever you find your podcasts see the show notes for a video link if you need auto captions be part of the conversation with av cultures on facebook and twitter or iv cultures pod on instagram as well as patreon membership one-off support is appreciated at buy me a coffee.com forward slash pea blair i produce and edit the show by myself and i am grateful for any support for this work for more information and episode links visit audiovisualcultures.wordpress.com thank you so much for listening catch you next time

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Audiovisual Cultures episode 39 – Mary Queen of Scots automated transcript


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hello I'm Paula Blair and this is already a facial cultures the podcast that explores aspects of cultural production and their relationships with politics society and culture more broadly in this episode Angie she and I have a trip to the movies with big thanks to my mom for the O. D. and gift cards and we went to see historical drama Mary queen of Scots for but first minutes or so of the discussion to sign quality essence grades I've done what I can to remove disturbances and keep distortion che a minimum please bear with it it's much clearer after that's thanks to everyone who's been supporting on pitching on an engaging on social media stick with me at the end for details and heights J. bos I hope you find this useful perfect story for our times I'm sorry yeah are being screwed over by every man in their lives yeah that's pretty perfect for any signs yeah Hey this is all about what it exerting I having any terms yeah in our system yeah this is a long way jangle the possibility of these two women just sorting out without or thank about time space and it's not because it's a story so far she cherry how to stop myself going right M. night we think he's going to say but you know years ago records are different things great of course no no right yes there was a considerarse based on real events some they went those two things they have based on we really didn't want me to transfer my skills great job just read that's an incredible transformation saying we're now going what evidence is there most so I right make up say what it's set in a world that was just changes one in which slowly walking in just a minute right thank god I scored thanks we've another example it suggests that these the meeting between marrying in yes when they were I'm actually able to hear each other even though they stopped thirty sheets are we were able to hear the usual all the optical center modeling design where I was just walking from the ground running lanes not quite shocking downwards and she walks out yeah this is and you he just in the wake there wasn't quite this is that's right yeah this morning in just one thing shatters on the screen Charles on this Richard what are home right sounds something %HESITATION always three seconds away from arresting and right Max right I think one of these things is rearranging woman using everything arrangement I can't sensing that he rearranged your music was a little bit you know what I wasn't he said that credit I mean I think most checks their long you're not noticing them and I was thank you that's one of the reasons why I like usually when I start to concentrate on the music what right share some yeah he's got so much special I heard it described and it still shocks me how much those reading here saying on he's under construction Simonaire describes him as Jane yes press on it scared me because that really was just like I'm just scanning Harry John John not church of Scotland the most but the most well that's modeled on really at the end of each month it's just models and what is even comes with an island in the nineteen sixties and seventies right the horse will shrink our religious complex everyone on both sides but now it regarded courses just being required well and one of our ET thank you all the transactions and get along file created I don't think that it everyone's just needs something on this find that Mary seems to announce quite early on in the show total religious freedom all right hello Sir Gaurav you shouldn't lose focus right traffic on the bridge from this country western bar and they pretend to be armed and the remote con using your house and the woman behind the boulders %HESITATION I got both I got cancer and that's what came to mind when many quite early on she's holding court for the first time she says everyone will be free to worship Catholic I'm just work that exists the extent the times and I work as a Protestant our such a huge history it's not there's not even a whisper of anything that could be going on in our guns it's time so long distance star all right so that's not the whole it's not moment a lot of it was just a year just a month small Margot Robbie's it did make quite a big point when they are concentrations the service all of these things which is great about you registration records within these are your counsel I don't think she meant exposing in this context thank you hi Scott and I am a feminist but avoid yeah I'm a feminist but I think my favorite thing about that movie is merry's earrings I think that's one of things that they're about it's not quite happening in this universe yeah it was the people's costumes were quite well made contemporary in little ways because she was mildly punk one of the sensor readings was multiple small hoops yeah one sorry lotus one yeah those of those M. on air and then one long time leasing on the other year on as well yeah onyx is a totally neutral Andrea strips to make something that looks a bit like flexible chainmail but which is awesome %HESITATION just insurance there was a lot of the stunning costume and administering black going the costuming thing was incredible in the set designs and everything read incredible design work has gone on there so many acting our houses as well I mean is there any accent that Sir Sharon and Thomas J. the issue that we've already had a little chat about this would mainly have how discourses accent I don't think that that actually has a reason because her accent is slightly French I think he's managed to pull off yes sign that after six years and it's more fringe when she's speaking in French to America's maid servants man I think that was quite a good staff but someone who'd been brought up by Scottish people in front yeah I think so I was just basing the time we had earlier on reviews that I've been hearing the only criticism I've heard was why does she have a Scottish accent but she not have had a French accent and actually hearing it and the Salem her Scottish accent is fairly mild she speaks fluently between French and English quite often yeah this is someone who's presumably either very good at speaking French anyway such around enough microscope says runs our records we can find you right four when I'm kind of crash course in advance of doing well she's very good at accents and I think she works very hard with dialect coaches coming in in a lot of actors Jerry but there's very few that can really pull off convincing naming she has played really convincing the %HESITATION Granja Merican an English accents before it's not that often that she plays an Irish accented person and even sometimes she does mean she's I think she's from Dublin and I think she's played rural Irish accents characters for an Irish characters here from the fifties and their accents going to be a bit different nine thirty thanks the Scottish with the French interaction like that was just really impressive both of her parents are from Dublin but she was born in New York City all yes yes I've heard her talk about actually and then they moved back %HESITATION but briefly lived in county Kerr but you must do that Margot Robbie I haven't seen a huge amount that Margot Robbie's done because I think it's just she's been in films that I haven't been very interested in seeing I know she's on the wealth of all straight I would like to see I Tonya I'm crying too yet she's done Harley Quinn and %HESITATION shares of CSX Corp the fact she some of America and then she's in goodbye Christopher robin Holmes a nicer you know so I just haven't seen Aaron very much but I just thought she was really impressive as well as Elizabeth the first I'm also talking about a number of factors he was doing not her native accident is Margaret is paired with guy Pearce's wells with Strahan's spraying these ready Casey anguish makers I was finding because site how did give you take because you were trying to stay spot the cast member quite early in the film and for talking you were code violating and I was not impressed as he we had a really wealthy of audience apart from you it's just unacceptable COS you didn't Elsa on me and I also let you just turned and you instantly froze me into his body we take because I didn't want to have to talk to E. and then there for break the code myself to say we'll do this later does too much of this will be doing it for the whole film thing was I thought that someone here we're going to see for about five seconds and then we're not going to see him again Basil must've felt use both of these Martin Compston haver recognizing from nine of cheating the rest in heart and Marissa okay I'm very fond of he was lower maintenance one of the conspirators Scott has here he used the phone number for you yes yeah yeah yeah he sent basically everything he's one of those actors he dissolves into the character that he's paying so he's one of those faces we think because she's familiar I don't know why because he becomes that character he's an amazing character actor he was curled in high points from the all right Stanton and is now %HESITATION fifty four that's among the things as well because I was watching it going because I know that person's face but they're old and mass marketed everybody just suddenly get hold me today to make a it's tests are yeah those finishing message seemed to be okay we've all suffered horrendously weak to queens on the systems you have to live in however what we've managed to bring about is a solution to the current problem in these two rival monarchies which is one of you starting with that and that and another one %HESITATION she's being executed is leaving on that here the moniker of a United Kingdom United Ireland as if that was %HESITATION not as if it was planned but just as if that was something that would solve everyone's problems the uniting of two kingdoms into wanton where is it hardly put an end to conflict on the mainland so much more coming Edan said that after ola saying this were happily ever after there's a tiny had to fight in the tax that comes up in screen and silence by the end if you know the history of taller show much more pain coming you know there's a bottle of the boy in Cromwell a lot stuff's gonna happen yeah this call is simple but yes I think we've been calling so that's coming in sort of sixty years after this yeah and that would be based on the idea of legitimacy of a Catholic monk that forty or so years after that as part of the brain James purses William than stuff like Culloden much we've been learning about eight a little bit and I the thing about it well we're watching affection but member reading the actual history of artists the chance by for the the film just momentarily in its opening few second really annoyed me and it was because some of the opening text magical special slightly quickly in order to make it work the old time manner as a base in the opening days of tax said Mary was born a Catholic and no one is born of any religious designation whatsoever regarding %HESITATION but even a monarch people have been brought up in relations I was bored the end up no I agree it's just this is a different world I mean that still higher a lot of people think in this world but I mean yeah it was definitely a context in which she was for all intents and purposes born with religion but still it's an important distinction to make sometimes the phones itself implicitly making it by having so much of its attention concentrated on the birth of James who we just saw as a kid with some of the new bonus rooms again baby sermons about two year old and then boom we seem inevitable postscript to the novel and some never says anything to be spoken about a lot by Mary in the future tense as this person who she really wants to secure a safe future for somebody who is not as far as found concerned going to be brought up to do anything other than being self brought up in a certain religion was that's exactly what happened perhaps the film's implicitly and going what happened to our characters who wind up in the film is what will not happen to successive generations were very spoiler a type of discussion but I was threatened by new was coming at him because the film starts us going to hands with merry's impending execution and he never actually see the execution across the block before the ax comes to mind I was driving out because that's the thing that's always stayed with me from the history lessons on this period is that a ticket based three goes to get her head off it was a really horrific deaths that she hides I'm just looking at a system that always stayed with me I vaguely remember after on the television of it off saying it when I was a teenager and I was around the time I was looking at this period in history I can't remember anything about this so he made a he was senator anything maybe imaging it by JV game remember the camera being she's obviously a part of shot she's an off screen space and that the cameras at standing height she's everything needing dine on that that's watching that executioner have in the house several goes in ready grown thing because it kind of gets raided her knack she's even in her death her body is stubborn medium throwing since birth is is it took two brothers and just a little bit of work left for a third platoon and complete which will give you a headache also the tiny details the execution the firm indicated a good something like twenty years elapse between Mary coming to England captain prisoner for a long time they indicate about aging in everyone except for Mary yeah they just H. isn't makes our Sharon in the it's just she was just %HESITATION so so she's still in over half an inch long and thick and lustrous have been throughout in reality when she was beheaded use buying awake and it came off and it was revealed that she had very short gray hair at the time everyone has gone through the deterioration only see Elizabeth Guthrie yeah yeah this is a lengthy account of her execution I'm reading but I suppose that's the artistic license of imagining her hand as she left you know so this young powerful confidence beautiful intelligent queen bed stadium passion of her as she was rather than this existence that she'd had her nearly twenty years from the dog's historical fiction is giving a clear sense of how much time has elapsed between scenes if they get quite a good sense of Mary's been live in an effective imprisonment in England for decades between the Cinemax but that was about it for %HESITATION indicating the passing of time how much time passed between early fans of scenes it was really okay the fact is I getting more and more pregnant I gave a bit of a sense of scale in one point how old is James the baby will a moment that I can get a sense of scale but we should always expect when we look in the actual time lines of these things to go out and do not think that they suggested took about a month was in seven years this happened with the outlook came on me for a couple weeks yeah there was lots of %HESITATION and then nothing happened for her latest compression auspices yeah they have taped or as we wait A. H. and then seven years somebody's appearance can change quite a bit even if it's just their hair color if they've naturally surgical gray or something there's more wrinkles have started to come in your face and especially Bach fan when people you know life is hard and then he H. G. quickly without those kinds of markers it's difficult I think everyone a bit of a note for this but I'd be quite happy if every single scene started with the statement of the day thirty one day month year I'll be fine with that it was a you know in the pants off other people I think I would appreciate it as I'll because I think that's for her movie it's because I was so used to the axe files they would always update June what day it was time it was some things but it helps you get a sense of when things were happening in high much time meadow lapsed CD cage work suffered about art because yeah with history fiction I mean this was cover and %HESITATION a twenty five year periods at clips along at quite a pace the film and there are some really huge ellipsis of time but it doesn't feel like it so things such as she said I feel like well this is all a couple of weeks versus stuff actually quite a few years but none of the characters really changing very much there was very little sense that Mary had a secure hold on a big kingdom and there's several reasons for this the first was that we was constantly being Sherman man conspiring against each other and against her it was unrest often restaurant owners to monks to read council meeting managing died at the at each other and the moment when David rich here the man when he's killed me to after that it seems that has been put in place to make her puppet Martin says I see a man running and she manages to get out of that by going to both well who's not loyal military leader but then he later on tents against have thinking that he's been given a promise of a crown so everyone's out for scoring everyone else have but another thing that give a sense that she wasn't in charge of a secure kingdom was that she didn't appear to be in charge of a place that was populated because a shot off the pace and scope this is sure to show couple of farmers the yeah I'm the guy who's doing fishing so many gorgeous shots of the highlands Holly route is shown as this console against some mountains right next to a city have a fun a medieval city but still that's a populated city and on the last call allusion code you should a ruined castle is that enough so this is an environment where there are seemingly onions with people %HESITATION because that's part of its this environment is very different from England it's really mountainous is rugged it's always raining that mistake or what but we did get a slight sense of this thing being populated with all of the shots of the interior of John Knox's church when recent events pay growth and their drove inside and outside of the church made the point and the cinematography of framing people hanging out the windows the king and hanging on as have rewired and then Chauhan saying death to the her death to their scary stuff it would seem to indicate was there's this sense of ghosts human common Gavin might do what Mary wants them to there's a bunch of people in this church he just hates her in and then apart from that maybe now and then some other Scots might emerge out of the ground engage in a bottle and then go back into the ground again my life really weird sense of how the terrorists yeah I mean I suppose so much of the drama is centered around these two queens and everything that's going on immediately and proximity to them politically that there's not really time and space for a lot more any historical film this gonna make criticisms of but why wasn't such and such coverage and less and less and less and then you've got the last that couldn't even be covered by lengthy television series you just have to be selective by what he can show and I think this film is more by the development of Marion Elizabeth this characters on what was going on around them and this examination of women here in power but they really haven't got any power or control well I have not seen all of Marion labor which is intercut with the scene of Elizabeth making these little so that we could then have to scrap my lived with several shots with her legs open this huge competencies fabric or paper roses yeah thank you graphically much to Mary sitting on a bunch of white blankets stay in shape yeah yeah surrounded by her ladies in waiting there was momentum that Russell and it did that I did that just shows that they've somehow got Elizabeth Vash during the birth yeah I wonder because there was a moment but it looked like she was handling the baby and of course it was confirmed on just three one direction of continuing care yeah having account to look into a screen space right and then the next on the continents until Spieth left it looks like an island was just that parallel I'm getting the two of them exchanging lapses in glasses which clearly things afterwards but the voice service providers of these products I mean clearly Vincent Ahmad exactly where that scene wanted this to be prescribing many ways in which this film was a funny graphic design of RF micro experience there's quite a few moments you know the six love test I have the H. bomb test it's if you become aware of how uncomfortable you'll see to earn and so that you stop moving around so the past next you guys what's wrong with you on it you know right I wouldn't say it's a bummer and then if you become aware of how uncomfortably seizes then the film isn't quite doing enough to immerse you in the past so I've been in really uncomfortable cinemas it doesn't matter who I am guessing from if you're in pain you're in pain you may have been in the ground wise the fittings %HESITATION I suggest that you're just affected our affection the worst moments for my for myself just forgetting that I was in an auditorium and I think I was in fifteen seventy cinnamon but I did find myself completely oblivious to my immediate surroundings that message I just was also fidgeting as well because I'm fifty it wasn't terribly well attended screening but it's been alright for miles from the benign well what a week or two or something but it's a big multi plex that we were asked and people are probably going to say other things are gonna come this is going on I'm curious about if yours is the only cinema in town and it's the last screening on Saturday and your screen is five six empty something's wrong but there's something about a multi screen cinema that means that they can quite happily every screen be showing through %HESITATION my empty room and still be doing just fine well I charge enough Strachan Plymouth to costs but we went because my mom got me a birthday party and gift card so that was why we were at the Odeon but I was just gonna say it was a well behaved audience none the less including the guy he had a massive thing of nachos he wasn't not bad I think it was like he was going the food and I'm not going to engage my doing it quietly so you couldn't seven doesn't matter stealth mode really dipped those natural okay so that was nine and I was totally embarrassed nobody really distracted me at any point there was a moment when I think somebody further along the same roadway south I think that maybe just maybe if their legs or something and I thought there was a light from the phone but all it was was they have really bright lights for through the latter call me as well you can disable it grinds and then the light wasn't going away so I had a quick glance and many so it's not a phone it's just the seating right you put the pin back in the grenade because Andrea is everything someone's on the phone is the most welcome excuse me it wasn't really anger it was just more this is been a while they can still be looking at a time entered masses and I think because there was no movement that was more curiosity and then I realized it was just it somebody's Mr Lagan revealed this lifestyle all that is and there was that and then right on the very end merry's just about to be executed there's a brass that she does have very sharp intake of breath it makes a noise and it cuts to black quite suddenly and somebody told it's summer I thought radian awaits me the talks really annoyed me because it's pointless this might so recently I find tumbling especially if it's another thing you know what I can add a felon or something I find it mildly violent it's just sonic violence that there's no need for it's a sign of disapproval of mine it's something like that and open space that's dead silent because there was no music at this point there was complete silence in the auditorium and nobody move nobody saddening is quite poignant moment and some of the topics in the middle of that and forgets not bothered me not back out of the ground there's a gentleman with full on the film might make you go and it's the end of inception %HESITATION you gotta find out whether it is or not you know Hey screw you guys are like you know axial cinema but this is just plain cheese even talk thought hoping to see the carnage of her execution such a needless noise it's borderline infantry for some people my groaning in pain sometimes if you just really inhaled and how to breath for awhile and it's a really tense moment when you left a profound you've grown in that area is going to be a general I think maybe I just associate the signed of it with impatience or displeasure or something you know it square in negative rather than the breaking of tension close if expression of exasperation and fed up with this sort of thing it's also %HESITATION for sexual harassment in some countries yeah if you do it to someone call it's the mildest form I can %HESITATION no idea getting in somebody's personal space yes this is for saying that it was quite difficult to choose what to say because we're not going to the cinema very often at the moment we hadn't pain since well before Christmas was our last cinema check Bahamian rap singer had we seen something sent signed Netflix see yeah we've been the puppies the fan and the law I think because money spent a bit tighter let they and we have been going on so much so I've had the voucher for awhile night this time he said in the end it was between Mary queen of Scots and stamina and Ole which we're still trying to say at some point but there's a lot of really good stuff right at the moment I think I really pumped for %HESITATION making a scouts because I feel like I've seen more than enough man's head strays and I think laurel and hardy are really deserving of getting their stories told because I think they've been very undervalued by scholarship by history by just from culture in general I don't think they're taken terribly seriously it's impossible because of the influence of continuity yes the rooms yeah kid yeah to an area is actually on the value of remember those work for them yeah as a result of Richmond do we know anything invite their director I'm not familiar with the name juicy Rourke thank you zero this was the first film really she is %HESITATION long standing theater director all rights so that has been a lot of theatrical designs in there okay the choreographed action scenes in the elaborate costumes the not necessarily naturalistic backdrops wireless customer margin the world yell the faceoffs between characters she has directed upwards of forty place while so someone who you can understand working titles taking a punt on somebody with that much experience in this company cultural realm in spite of her not having directed a feature film score huge fear trophy I think would be the not play over three stage oak tree and growing fear trucks used in a book recently sort of but if you would yeah because it's not quite synagogue fade out something a bit different it was a Shakespeare downloads a six fair of course is you'd have a mountain recruiting officer her Spanish arch Falkor loses Shakespeare sign the monologues so she's done ready prolifically since two thousand and one of the things that you'd be forgiven for expecting from established as a director is that this is a person's going to rely on the movement of characters and he's gonna have lengthy takes with very few addicts this is going to become of it might be moving but it was a very mopar comment I noticed service a lot of it rising up early on it would be over head height and rise quite powerfully so maybe that's influences are considering the variety of different view points you get on the stage but what I was saying was you know you might expect somebody to just have a few edits within the scene but keeping the edits to the scenes I've now has a new one but now this was a really high altitude right found this was a comment that was instantly translating someone placed or not this is someone who's using additive we determinedly I suppose when you've got a bunch of other people working on the issue even if you might counter from going I'm gonna have six that it's in my film I can do Hitchcock was instantly gonna happen is other people are gonna get right has a cool idea he's investing like shooting this it may have been J. zero K. may have been absolutely the influence of the people it's worth finding out who's gonna look up interviews well I was thinking with a lot of the high angle shots especially from married there so many mentions of the divine hand over everything that had sickle it's well worth it she rose and whatever I come they'll be as cool as well and so I was thinking maybe and there's a hand to flops over saying from above so soon becoming increasingly standard to explore what stuff looks like from the viewpoint of a drone these days is that we have access to this new sort it's a way of moving the camera around in your full sets affect can show the expense I mean there was some really incredible shot way Elizabeth on the roof of her palace she's framed alone you know it pulls back right back away from her so it starts off level with her and it goes right back into the nothing up in the second Dino on her in the palace and she becomes this tiny engulfed figure most powerful person and aligned and she's this tiny speck of the black dress that she's wearing she's this barely recognizable object in the distance and ghost by this huge palace underneath her there were plenty of extreme long shots of very small numbers of people moving against huge uncaring backdrops that's on the ticket about Kim just after she's arranged with him %HESITATION guy Pearce I think I can't remember his character's name they're trying to figure out what to do in the first instance and that's before the attempted insurrection which merry very capably supports and when's the bottle it's delayed up to Bob and Elizabeth is basically relinquished all control she says I don't want to know anything about it she doesn't want to know about any bloodshed or violence or anything and she seems and see after that moment she recoils and turn herself into this very internal self serving world of creating these portraits that she doesn't like and then order some to be pardoned you know these beautiful creations that she's made harsh upon ourselves not just her neighbor but the neighbor of her handmaidens Terry are helping her endlessly curl all this paper for these poppies is she staying in these pictures she's making and to just not be happy entirely with the colors and to just have them destroyed there is something very introspective but destructive being reflected by her character and those and thought shop before you sale of top starting to happen just really shows her is quite puny you know it was interesting hearing Sir Sharon Anne and Margot Robbie being interviewed by Simon Mayo because they talks quite a bit of bite the one saying that they're in together obviously it's merry's failed %HESITATION but Elisabeth phase very close second en masse Anna is a film of T. Huff's there to have set a red to caught with each other an interval fund but these are women who are separated so much of the time they just have this one meeting faith talks quite a bit of bite that meeting the production actually was all the session ronin stuff was found first and a block and then they fell not mating ad space K. like passing on the baton she's done her bit she's finished and she's passing it on to Margot Robbie she's going to carry it through that's the only time in the match on sat so Sir Sharon and had been merry queen of Scots for months and then that was her last day of filming but it was Margot Robbie's first day of filming they weren't related to each other and thought was that meeting for the first time assist characters even they didn't see each other before hand and this was the scene where they're in this building with all the sheets hanging so they're scared from each other's VA they said they didn't mean to be so emotional but just when they saw each other at the so powerful the tears just came out of them one point house of current what's happening with Margot Robbie's face in and of course that's what he is that light when you've got this thank you for calling you yeah is there any slowing down and the collection of the food chain will be added to use and hang them in case there's a visceral sleep it was yeah it was really powerful so I think that's probably why it was cast because it just was so faxing and it made them both human depictions of Elizabeth first maker so %HESITATION horror turned cold and distant and unemotional and to see her %HESITATION humanized and to see her with emotion knowing that everything merry says this tree but realizing that she has the upper hand working through all that emotion this lost sister heads but also the indignation that this person would threaten her in such a way threatened her crying because according to this year fine merry probably has more of a rightful claim to the throne at this point than Elizabeth and Elizabeth was considered by many to be a legitimate because her father had to note the marriage and then had her mother killed and that comes up in the film actually when Mary's kind so is trying to encourage her to divorce her agent of a husband's because he two drunkards he's cold by his own father a sodomite he's a gay man possibly bisexual I think sexuality is very fluids I mean it was fluid at that time but he's very fit but yet like dine upon because of his status in life and he seems to enjoy being with men a lot more than he does with women it's really interesting like their sexuality in the film you know Mary's first encounter with him shall we say is interesting because you think it fair show he's being fiery you see later that's probably part of his colon but %HESITATION so he's just not into women he goes dying on her and he doesn't want her to do anything with ham you see her getting pleasure from this you think of this is interesting but then on their wedding night he ends up in bed with David Britt CEO he is one of the queen's trip really the ladies yeah he's practically one of them married hostas still deal with them and she refuses to divorce him because it's not right according to Catholicism and she doesn't want her son to be illegitimate chic Munsterman and the integrity of the marriage but hi she becomes pregnant at such a difficult saying like it was a very brave scene today word chic summons him and he's drunk ands yeah it just becomes really aggressive on both sides I think she's starting to do things to him that he doesn't consent today and riles him up to the point where he then very forcefully does his business and takes it from behind and she looks like she's doing an incredible pain but she seems to know that it's going to make her pregnant and that's what she needs so she's very happy about this and so it's basically like a rape scene it becomes him exerting power over her because he feels powerless so he exerts power over her and then she's very painfully getting what she wants and needs which has impregnated so that she has an affair with informed consent yeah it's not as easy as it gets Judy it's for a higher purpose when she does come connected in Florida I just want to point out when we're on the subject of things that were quite real there's a bit during the battle when possible goes to kill mori is both well played by Martin Compston Morris played by James McConnell Hey guys the Kellermann then merry wives to her trump tower to sound the record so that if he has that he's coming in on one of those shots where nothing comes to his own horses charging towards James McConnell there was just a moment when must constantly urged Ford Cadillac is going to fall off the horse yeah and then he got back up again yeah I think that was one of those it's actually the act actually on a horse yes actually doing all this stuff like props ordinance hound but still it's contenders distress situation and it was serviceable it seems like a genuine recovery and that the radio took the footage yes finally looks like uniforms of the source for a moment that you're in a battle that's good afternoon might have three the both well we'll keep that on the car yeah yeah there was a brushless Karina fifteen I get the impression there wasn't a lot of take sex one or two takes on everything you know I'm getting the sense that whether it was but it may be a lot of the budget went on costumes set design paying actors throwing new anime name most of all how to do so much training with horse riding because a lot of the actors really are horse riding a lot of the time I kept looking for how are they doing that so the next doesn't have to learn to ride a horse and then officers run indefinitely at seventy dollars everyone seems to be putting host I think David Tennant was anyone who did get it over to really horse riding he got to our house though the wars across five his eyes are proper scary Anna on blinking ness of ham this is where I need to learn a little bit more about Mary's formations are very sex of Christianity John Knox founded the Presbyterian churches governments and municipal presbytery and sense of originating of band member of it that's what I was saying a case the model for inpatient we were recording pretty late at night and that discussion fizzled out a bit there a few other observations just before wrapping up I really appreciated that the cast wasn't quite polished and the film acknowledge that people with anything other than white skin we're in a minority rather than absent all together in Elizabethan England and Scotland I also appreciated it showing merry menstruating to demonstrate her fertility it's quite rare to see menstruation on screen and then be treated in the way that it was I think it would be worse considering the famine discussions of British heritage cinnamon this is probably a topic that should have come up more explicitly probably in previous episodes that are relevant along these lines so maybe that something will turn it into a bit more later on if this comes up again the film seems largely to take a neutral or objective stance or at least tries to but it does I think tipped over and to privileging marries story she's a sympathetic character here and hi she's betrayed but to an extent so way so that's a bonus and I think the actor says plates their characters with probably a lot more emotional intensity than even they thought they would judging by what they've said in interviews along with films like a knock came which you can see on Netflix that's about Robert the Bruce and the fear for it which is at the time of recording on general release at the moment as well which is a fight going on is there a current trend for revisionist history and what can we make of new interpretations of old histories pleased to be part of the conversation on social media if you've got any thoughts on those or any other points and she's you're listening to audio visual cultures with me Paula Blair and Andrew shield this episode was recorded and edited by polar bear and the music is common grind by err toned licensed under creative Commons attribution three point zero and Dino day from CC mixer dot org if you'd like to show you please support its production with donations to pay pal dot me forward slash P. A. B. L. A. I. R. or become a member on Petri on dot com forward slash a fecal cheers from as little as one dollar amounts on the pay what you count here members receive access to exclusive previews extended show notes and video transcripts episodes are released every other Wednesday please do you read it share and subscribe on your chosen platform as this helps others find the show for more information and to see what any money received goes towards our high as you can be involved visit audio visual cultures DOT wordpress dot com follow AP cultures on Facebook and Twitter for updates and links to items relevant to discussions thanks for listening and catch you next time
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Audiovisual Cultures episode 26 – Gold: The Dream That United Our Nation automated transcript


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this is not the official cultures Cassidy examines aspects of science and space culture production I'm the creator and host all up there I'm delighted to be joined by Andrew she'll to talk about it gold do we have a subtitle finesse films after she always believe in yourself I'm still subtitle for the film that came up in the Senate but it's not the page where it is it well the tagline is the dream that United our nation I'm not stopping cinema theme that's going to run this route what we're discussing today right finally nation is the Republic of India I don't think so the thing okay finished movement is a film dramatization and fictionalizing ation of the true story of India's gold medal winning field hockey team at the nineteen forty at Olympics posted and London otherwise known as the austerity Olympics as no new facilities are built in the post war economy for India it was also their first Olympic Games as an independent country they had previously entered as British India and been winning medals on behalf of Britain it was also the first games for both India and Pakistan post protection now you can go in years ignition Rambo okay this is part of an ongoing project by unite to go and see films which we wouldn't ordinarily currency in part because we're not seeing trailers for them Beijing media outlets that we are exposed to on a regular basis and they're not being reviewed by my review is here's refusing to listen to bake cons press great because of the fresh green nine and you know this may change because I would love to hear what people who are reviewing stuff that's coming from European and US markets some industries think of from cemex circle gold which of course is it's a bit of a spoiler already because she knew what the end point is going to be a film yes just more by they getting there and the narrative let's get this out of the way field hockey we didn't think it would be quite so sexy but filled exciting pretty sexy so this is from the resort at the Odeon metrocentre across the river in Gateshead heads the mattress into early and it has this habit of pressing on the occasional subtitled foreign language film detailing Indian films yeah this is something we learned when we were in Branford recently which is the fact that they %HESITATION didn't invent for dance to show a lot more subtitled foreign language films from South Asia including ones that are in the women's room bangali in addition to ones that are in hand the one that we saw gold foundation using the state's primarily in India because there's lots of bits when people pass into English when we go to see these kinds of from the system the second one would be celebrity come to see at the metrocentre which seems to be another court body was found because that's got connotations are doing to bring in that that is why it was not because it's it's a Hindi film second seed in the mattress into %HESITATION themes already you're beginning to emerge we go knowing that cinema going in South Asia he's an awfully different social experience from what it is here but there are some elements of it the different quite substantially we go knowing for example the talking during the screening is much more widely accepted in India than it is here and there for the crown with strict adherence to what is known as the code we need to be briefly suspended for we do this now that we're gonna talk and eat and make phone calls during the film we have to be fine with us other humans during this I can cope with Janick St it's just week upset and in front of some young people he incessantly at sites from the largest packaging on the planet go to different schools but yes I am after all the stuff they sell at all I started to go just five minutes to break long but we should have mates another thing that I suppose is worth studying is when you get a ticket to sit in a specific price and then of people come along and the person at the desk at the front of the cinema because this is where I was going to be sitting with you on the set of course you're sending that %HESITATION was going to take it before you actually got to sit twelve extra ticket for but not not everyone just sat in the back and we deliberately set the backed off to one side so as to be inconspicuous at the only white people kind of course are conspicuous this as the only white people in the room drew the attention of the person who is selling is the ticket because I said can we have two grown up kids for the seven whatever sure you've got with him she went you do know it's a bold move from there to annoy it's users to Q. yeah because of course we were the wrong color of past history the fact that the metrocentre idea shows seemingly just Hindi films as it's such a different language from tells you something about what what do you think they are able to get from the surrounding area and the work of art thirty people it meant for him except for you and I seems to be off recent south Asian origin another thing which is very good to get out while we're on the subject of the slight difference between the semi going experience and that the U. K. it's going to see that from my consent into war with %HESITATION yeah western I'm gonna phone personal sentiment was arranged that because people were talking and doing stuff on the phone to a ninety degree during Wonder Woman yeah I had a couple of things that's a spectrum that because we'll save during a quiet place not a single other person said a single word to my recollection to request Arbel time doing nothing because there were people behind us having a food on top show yeah well that's an interest in the film I was in is trying to save it they kept telling me I and then people kept standing up and knocking over the glasses that they shouldn't have had in the screen that that that was missing their banks so I can name a phone what we thought was a radio story space name the phone when people are generally quiet we've seen recently probably the best but you don't even see that for a while it's being played no trace wasn't too but that was terrible it was okay many people are saving less and not the recess intended this to stick with the experience of being in the house it's very sad but also I think it's worse because the first Hindi film that we saw was tiger Zinda hai yes that was quite rushes and that's an option may face it had serious things in it but it was not intended to be fairly serious hi there comic relief and it's needed to stand I think what I'm reading Joanna by the Indian sounds as staff is very aware of cinematic language in a bright playful with it so you have these children action scenes he how people taken south face with the film and self respect their friends to write the film and just having a good time and I kind of embraced the Rochas ness of the crime that was quite a big crowd for that one the cinemas movie half fill for that and it's quite a big screen and the noise didn't really bother me because I was swept up in the action the next and of course sections related these explosions shutting I think with this one it was more of a sign it difficult to concentrate because service lots of different languages being used it was hard to follow of course this is a time in India as well where you're coming I does not just colonial rule but the country splitting apart it's fracturing and so there's a lot of different languages to keep up with and then people are slipping into English at times you need to concentrate on things that were being said and then of course you're aware that your ladies and things in the translation and the subtitles but the subtitles need to be accurate enough because that's the common language English is going to be a common line which anyway in this region I didn't really mind so much to talk in the phone so I could kind of pick up but it was not constant I kind of stress that constant the wrestling actually was there was no break and that there was just a lot going on in that film this quarter there was more drama in it and there was a leading figure during those months are sequence which was about they were running through the second World War in these terms of second World War during which there's music going on with lyrics and so we getting tele sized text translating the lyrics and music at the same times getting newspaper headlines as a way of getting us quickly to the second local reading two sets of stuff at the same time was great Turkey so the last thing the experience of being amongst that cinema audiences in the particular cinema or deterrent I wanted to point out was and this of course reveals how the film ended in the nineteen forty and the fix that changes are things about once you happen with it and change this India does win the men's field hockey in the nineteen forty A. Lympics in fact it's just the filter because is that women still don't get it done and it does when you get a gold medal the entire team and there's a sequence when the Indian national anthem is played over the hoisting of flags the culmination of the narrative is quite powerful I was feeling kind of record hot for engines is great stuff so I was into it but to go I think I counted two currents to cause stood up for the national anthem there were women right some people stood up for the national anthem this apparently is a thing in cinemas in India which is that the national anthem will be played once the phone playing phone stands up and it's quite a matter of I'm just trying to put expectation people will stand up for national anthem you %HESITATION always referring to me as %HESITATION calling a friend but at that particular moment three well I think you counts killing or press the two thing there's been stopping you from telling these kids to stop making noise throughout the entire film I spent dental cushion it was a whole lot of yeah we're not going to stand for the national anthem the firm's of thinking what would I do if somebody demanded that I stood up for another country's national anthem because I could just go right I'm not standing up for any country's national I don't think I'm not even when I don't really do nationhood and this I have to but it was quite a rising moment more the film leading emotionally she piece you check yourself you go well that wouldn't be appropriate that was a whole world of are you wouldn't be appropriate they wouldn't be appropriate so you would be appropriate and with a number here we're just here to see the film we would learn %HESITATION the only people who sent over to the credit bureaus to SSJ I didn't concentrate on them as much as I normally read because I just felt really transfer melakukan noise going on behind me we should obey and it was a long film and especially at the point is that and in twenty minutes I was actually doing very specific timings so yeah I think we'll take care of that it was two hours not counting the intermission nine ten min intermission too often I think we've talked quite a bit of by our viewing conditions in the film the film itself there's quite a lot of issues so I think just to write nine if you could play thinking about colonialism post colonialism and neo colonialism and I think that post prefix it's one that I've been preoccupied with for quite awhile coming from a post conflict place that's also on one hand post colonial on on the other still colonial so that will be interesting to think about it %HESITATION so that religious and racial identity so she really big mixture of people from different backgrounds as well as their regional tensions in the film which ten DSM but also there's Sikhism Buddhism Islamism and Parsees mentions the role of women or maybe then that practical non existence of women only when it's I think the main character's wife is actually a pinnacle of the narrative but she still so sidelined and marginalised so things like arranged marriages and Mandy and the blessing of the wife does so I think we should think about those sorts of things probation and alcohol the idea of Bollywood because we're not really I mean here we anyway because neither of us are experts in some from this area of the world I don't know very much but believe it anyway but you do you get that song and dance elements in the film that we come to expect from what we would typically associate with Bollywood cinema and also flanks one of my favorite topics is as such a woman fluffy element of yeah the politics of Northern Ireland yes indeed right so first of all just on a personal level I really enjoyed the experience of watching the film I find it really fun writing getting ready to go after it was forever in the way it was told it's quite funny another time but it hits you pretty hard as well because of course there's a lot of violence the country splitting apart there's a lot of hatred between Hindus and Muslims and the stakes seem to be caught in the middle of all this people from the pitch operation %HESITATION that comes across the town they seem to they picked on by everybody in this class conflict amongst the six it's very for the amount of time that it comes because it starts off in nineteen thirty six the the Indian team is British India have just won the men's field hockey for the second or third time running and so the winning for Britain Britain's relying on them to do it but it's not bothering to sales teams according to the story at least and then we have the nineteen forty Olympics being canceled and that's a really big frustration in the nineteen forty four Olympics been cancelled and finally we get to nineteen forty eight so this film does cover over a decade during which people slightly which gives you a little bit of gray in various currencies have surprises another word for a particular group of Serra streams in India absolutely so something I studied journalism student but I have not seen for example structure I thought this is really working it's having an elected beginning but one just saying the car while this film contains doing donuts the aim is to do this while I was independent India that is a position of deficiency does have to be able to achieve and then mixed in fact we've got enough time it takes to get to know the field hockey big contest the plane is a constant frustration to our main character he's content and dance in the colon bangali if the current school him Mike is a maintenance light pointing up with connect so he's from the east %HESITATION at the time what is India and what course would become the pontiff bangles would become hard to find a passion which initially was expected some of the petition Kevin does he has to wait all this time and we can see his current to begin to crack in the pressure having to wait for so long I see becomes an alcoholic and then there's the challenge of okay now this country's been through war and everybody played their last show talking twenty minutes is now probably too old seven to put the team together from scratch one of these classic reverses when talking does having got permission to put this team together from somebody if he's to win his next season's part of the Indian Olympic management once he finally starts to put the team together does so quite successfully in quite quickly and then petition echoes and as a result they have this hemorrhaging its members from the team say the first one is that everyone who's a Muslim face for their own safety and flees to the nearest city that's going to be part of Pakistan's safely to the whole this is a traitor quite obviously what's happened to us scratching names off his list so we lose Muslims they lose holes are the Anglos this is something which I didn't really I noticed that some of the members have English names James Cullen for example some of members of the team is that putting it together and have the dentist names unveils seem to decide that they're not going to be safe in post independence in post partition India as well and so they'll move to Australia the big damage to the team is not just the cost of these people that they were supposed to captain their ways into yes and it is not occurred to me looking at these people's names the some of them Hindus and some money K. different these people seeks to stay way ahead of me still months but that person must be missing because it's still remaining I didn't make that assumption but then clearly mmhm the film just splits the team and as you just contact these people in the team anymore but then of course some of these people who end up as packs thirty citizens because essentially what the phone does is pull these people would remain citizens of India whether they're Hindus Muslims Sikhs %HESITATION anglers will policies whatever they are they remain citizens of India it's just suddenly this contagion is taking hold inside of India where no one who's known to Hindu or Sikh is safe and so they have one of these instances of Hindu crowd trying to kill in two hours the Muslim captain of this team and it's only because various other members of the team hello that they managed to save his life and he's drenched in petrol and and this is going to be the same so this is the low point of the phone thanks because this is the partition of India amongst and face violence and also the team is now down to about four people have deemed it okay to still stay in India I know this because this is one thing which instantly reminded me of tiger Zinda hai in spite of hundred at very different films this film recounts partition is the worst possible thing that could ever happen to India recounts as this scar that needs to be remedied to the extent of reunifying Pakistan within the conditions in India which still contains text on on Monday and so the rendition of the various rounds of that field hockey Olympics contains both the Indian team impacts commenting these teams put together at the very last minute from position just about whipped into shape then again says the British teams right just about with him said they haven't fielded their own team for twenty years in spite of this will be a very last minute thing the Indians and Pakistanis they give really good accountants are there in the top four classically thanks trying to do the same thing what it points out is that the Indians will be completely fine spec Stephanie's got the gold medal friend are delighted that the Indians skip Copeland this picture of India Pakistani cooperation yeah they both win either way and that tells us something about the way that the Indian film industry views India's relationship artist on moment which is that it's doing its damnedest to be considered tree when there aren't significant tensions between two thirty but also a bit better than you do about this but yet in both of these very same recently with brothers but do you want to know that India is the bigger problem and the starship that's about it one thing I want to confront as a characteristic of this film is there are so okay so this is a historical piece of fiction so what we should expect front is that these are historical versions of real people and serve they want to have the same names these real people but I had a quick look at who play in the nineteen forty eight field hockey at the Olympics and not a single person whose name was mentioned in the film as being a member of any of these fifty teams and for the Olympics appeared in this film the team from India every single person on the list here of who actually right nine names appear in the script some similar settings for example something like five members of the Indian hockey team at the time that same same but that's far from the most common name yeah the firm for jobs so it's not surprising that fence but it never happened I'm the actual count is completely fictional only the India won gold at forty I expected okay I mean that was historically accurate there was a disclaimer at the start of the film to say that it was fictional all of the people are fiction from a pretty big just did the standard everyone's fictional any resemblance to anything on that it's pretty constant it didn't say based on a true story even though it is based on a true story it's just that one part of his story the big part the main part of the story it's an imaginary really I think that in itself is interests and think in terms of a lot of different nations all over the world if they're in some kind of post transitionary a phase stem and there's a question mark over when does not face ever hand twenty not post conflict twenty don't post dictatorship when he notes transitioning from these things when you know transitioning from a partition when do you become stop saying so there is that hanging over it %HESITATION ace with a place like India and then Pakistan as well with them being both of them at the same time post colonial and post partition this is the time to imagine the past reimagine the past reinvent the past retail the past three historic size but there's no %HESITATION came to trace here and it's an entertaining story and it's a story that's probably quite rising possibly in a nationalistic sense of patriotic sense I suppose in a nice way because it's sports rather than I mean sports anyway it's pretend complex but with something like field hockey certainly not time doesn't have the connotations of violence that a lot of other sports to become to have later on they're sporting a separate I think to make it quicker point of sharing crowns in the last thirty six Olympics thirty nine the German problem because they're cheering for India when the allies that are collecting that final and then the same thing with the British people yeah among forty eight Olympics cheering for India because they're the underdogs enough fun now quickly on to the way in which these games run the actual score in the final was India one for now India beat Great Britain for millions on the way in which they do it in the film is that India would go down to now they have to make everyday tasks in the first time yeah and then there's the second half comeback I know this is important the context within the correct %HESITATION that's what's going on in that state isn't just that the team they're the underdogs I have to win it isn't just that it's that there's been class complex but also it seems regional conflicts the same Sir quite separate but also there's the prince his name is regularly attract taps and and what's the other characters her character from the same region he's him out samba him not as the team's best player lose their best player by far but he hasn't been allowed to play on the strategy that no one tells him to do connect the characters what's going on and there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for them not being played even though they know that the bass player of the whole team so he doesn't get to play a toll and the tournaments and it's the last game there in the final top on has been saving him and the Ryans when they're playing in the tables all of the teams are watching each other strategies he's warned by it's the former captain so the captain of the gold winning team from thirty six summer summer Hey everybody knows he's really famous supplier he's really admire terrorising want him as captain but he will death but when protection happens he takes some relief when he comes back to train with the team he advises and to see if he's here what is it the calm he sure trump cards or something along those lines but nobody tells him that that's today the server secret weapons the conflict arises he gets really annoyed because this guy who's very very wealthy from the same region is ham and he's grown up in poverty they're both what is it center field centre forward centre forwards this is how much support things I know so they're both the same position as the primary position for gold and the princess the one he hogs the ball all the time he will not pass C. won't pass to his teammates he just runs rings around everybody and goes for his own glory and it doesn't gel with the team very much but he's made vice captain with him not as a T. in player but he's also really really good show up to he's probably better than this other guy but there's just class tension arises and him and feels very hard done by that he's not getting go and then it comes to half time and there's a big blow up this disciplinary action because they've had a bit of a fight in a bar yeah so there's all these tensions rising it's building up so this kind of Max and then finally top and convinces the heads of the team to maximise play and I think it's just because everyone just goes I'm sorry well they reveal what they were doing in the radios all right nice thing but something about this yeah but nobody goes why don't you tell us even if elected come on but yeah makes for very entertaining second half then again we've got several different narratives going on the same time the other one is just is about to happen to us and whether he can organize this team is basically the manager whether he can get his team organized and get them to the point where they can win gold for India and he keeps promising everyone I will get him to come and go from there and then you've got what's coming to India itself and so whether characters will live or die and then in addition to that we've got this conflicts between record data processing and have that same class conflict when the resolution of that conflict is lost cementing together of the team there's several stages of cementing together the team one of them is that when they're doing training this the potus things simple just on the team but the second version the team the ones put together after partition a train after Buddhist monastery they get very lucky yeah and it's tough and it's quite a Jeremy thank you he's out is what sends you complain training grace finally call together and no thirteen but they can't get anywhere to train they won't give any more money he keeps making afraid of themselves because the case getting really drunk and messing stuff up and spray themselves to beat pretty unreliable even though when it comes to the team he's really dedicated and he knows what he's doing but he's a liability in terms of this behavior three of us next to nothing yeah what is his struggles to get this team put together as he struggles to become a functioning human being yeah because his alcoholism lost a long time yeah I think it's the last hurdle that has to be cross to to get the team as he wants it to be to Britain I think they even leave without him initially team has to be yeah he has to be reinstated it's because there's a levels of control over the team and as in the Saudi I he said in the United States for a while and it's his second in commands he is really trying to get rid of top on schools Mr master he's one of our many antagonists expose in this film he's one of those antagonists he also has a point you know what's right he's coded as you're not supposed to like or trust me but actually he has a point hello this time because Toppin's behavior sure getting a mix of people coming and there's the whole thing but how he treats his wife salinity get inside of that tape so there's this other thing going on with his alcoholism yes he goes to this address mama straight trying to ask for space and boards for training initially they say no they later yes is there a senior member he's taken a five year five silent C. hasn't spoken in five years of course you're set up for what's coming up and it's asking an intermediary monk communicating on his behalf there's a flat nose or chin up say they know they can come a day and then second us says something about a bounce and he just mentioned mentioned some routes because someone's going to be the coach so then the head of the ministry of course except those somewhere else he his name is yes will he be coming this is one of the four five and the firmware it just delivers a brief check yes and it did seem like someone had got the how to make a drama menu in which you have to just occasionally diffuse the tension with a joke about that yeah one of those I'm going to keep this might have been able to reset the desires of the stuff we can and so they make then and that's a really nice part of the film where they're at a ministry setting it up and then their training weekend %HESITATION team building stuff does he get some of the characters complaining that there will be eating any meat for three months I felt very self righteous about women yes I think the comic moments are quite well within that sequence and top and has managed to manipulate his wife into helping quite a lot he goes from initially stealing and pawning her jewelry to find stuff and also she's pretty neglected spy him she seems okay with that because she's got a mind she seems to be independently wealthy families we need ambitious it seems like she's been married to him I think she refers to her father choosing him over somebody she prefer hurts so there's that hand to various marriages and there he says words she's really sassy character but she's not really characterize beyond her socks with hand there are moments where most of the time she seems really quick setup in Paris by him especially when parties when he gets drunk and the song and dance numbers speak and one of them's even bite him trying to get her to dance with him and she's not interested but when she becomes the person who's looking for the team is heading up the entire kitchen mystery cooking for the team then she becomes a hands on contribute to a larger project who is a valuable member but I think on the on the way to that happening she's really quite integral I mean he manipulates her and it's quite a funny saying you know you're finding it funny but also it's a bit problematic and that he's got the ministry secured but he's trying to get all the other stuff you need security and so he speaks phone call saying that somebody else's wife is going to help with the kicking and provide the means for the first time pay for it all as trials no no I don't think that person is going to think oh they did yes there are other states so he manipulates her into helping and then when they're on the way the card gets stuck in the months and then you go to a major plot point here because the car gets stuck in the mud it's tough on a chain of patient trying to free the whale that's stuck in the mud he keeps that thing she says to him you need to take your shoes off because that's what is making me sick but Homer grant if you take a she softened semantically Texas she self financed correct from his back feet in the months this is a plot points because and the final game ferry English whether characters it's blisteringly hot summer and dry and then ask them to storm happens and it's very heavy downpours the commentators even say stuff like well we engage where you say yes but the ending second Honda rand and I was thinking this is their own sayings surely there is still more than we are in the country is a software as a strength of the British team but they can yeah right I thought well that should be a star Shuster this problem and then it becomes apparent that the English team has spiked shoes and state Indian team has normal pencils westrock so %HESITATION some of them I thought alright so having standardized equipment wasn't at this point it seems you could just like one team could have guns yeah that's good no I have things on their stacks top on is watching this and he gets one of those memories floating and then the audio of his wife telling me I need to take your shoes off and so he tells the team thank you she's %HESITATION selected probably symbolic because there there is these %HESITATION people have been training in circumstances where it is all right okay so any issues anyway but more in the relevant not wearing shoes he played the rest of the match actually even when it stops raining I'm not positive what helps them to it it is one of those films that goes around and things that you might not think is useful but of course it's going to be remembered as being something up front so can do this we'll do it right I had to look this up so the way in which it works is one of the nineteen thirty six Olympics the pre war team which is the British India team that flying is the unifying with a metal symbol to indicate that seemed rather Great Britain as the team is going in to play in this finals this is the first few minutes of the film couple of Indian protesters coming from the front of the Indian team's box and they have the flood of what the time was proposed to be the flank of four would be independent India by the Congress so this is a party in the Indian parliament that wants independence and the front is very familiar yeah it's just that the symbol in the middle isn't quite what it is now because the symbol in the middle in this pre independence version of the proposed version was the spending where is the symbol in the middle man so otherwise it's still the same orange white and green horizontal checker with a spinning wheel in the middle of the whites behind bars now the Indian flag exactly same colors but the thing in the middle it's not spinning wheels it's not even an actual object it's a simple this could be a shocker chakra it represents the eternal wheel of little apartment and it was deliberately picked over the spinning wheel as an indication at the point when India became independent as performers Inbal because it suggests willingness to move into the future with a spinning wheel suggest and to use them that's the finding of courses hosted in the nineteen forty at live pictures on the table the company prior to having their own national anthem having a look at the different types of flags that were proposed for India three independence the one that looks very similar to the ones used now the woman and the spinning wheel and it was one of a variety of different flags that were proposed during the very lengthy period when India was agitating for independence that flank that was hosted by others to Indian ports is one of the beginning of the film that's only very recently been proposed as the national flag what happens is this is Nazi Germany in nineteen German officials they grab these two Indian guys and stopping them up one throws the flag why ends up it happened at six feet he could grab that stuff sits in his jacket and at the moment when that Indian team in nineteen thirty six has won the girls and then being lined up on the podium and it say we're gonna place their petition defiant I'm gonna play god save the queen and you're gonna saluted in semi urban desi reaches inside his jacket needs pulls out cores this flag and everyone who's lined up the whole team is lined up the stocks with some accountant sees it and puts his hand across his heart and not just the person next to me the season because his own because all the way down the line so that what they're doing is they're actually just very quietly saluting the flag well this is poking out of Tampa messes jacket so the whole thing in the beginning setting up this will be done legitimately at some point you have to do it surreptitiously circling your present moment number one quite seventy in this film and of course the times when we actually get British characters they are quite useful we've got the people who were running the police force in the city the pendulum went him out saying the strong fit in this is this is well before he becomes part of the national team directed against as well to be a police officer because he's wanted for the police forces okay and the person who tells him to do this is a member of the white the ministration and then after independence we get lots of different ways to scenes where the English organizes of the group info continued federal discussing things around the table and what was their smoking of course there is a conspiracy of evil people which I suppose is far enough this is a fun way it's quite okay for Great Britain to be antagonistic both of people from different you can take the same pretty dirty as well and the thing is we specifically have a commentator he talks about musically because it vigorous marking the seventy from isn't for me I just knocking people over okay yeah because something happens back in nineteen thirty six in German team in nineteen thirty six and the ref seven looking at %HESITATION something happens in nineteen forty eight hello I. people there's no difference between them that's the film's implicit insistence that the Germans who %HESITATION the oppresses in nineteen thirty six as just as the organisers of the event yeah %HESITATION replaced the bridge that's the thing is even if you feel free I'm not impressed in your own country if your country colonizes another one you can make those people feel oppressed so the way the Nazis make most of their fail type thing well let's face it the English it's been making India feel for two hundred years among many others the ship portion of the British Army that was made of Indians turn signal one of the top it's something like twenty percent yeah India it's wise if you look at other things it was so cool needs at the time it was one two percent India was very significant when you go back to the partial war as well it's a similar story and then you've got I didn't as well as part of that Terry it's worth noting as well that top and keep southside southside doesn't go away he keeps it and it re emerges I thought very heartfelt talks that they all have that argument still having the dressing rooms said Hoffman and I'm in the final a post it again just to remind everybody this is what we're all United against what we're fighting for it's bigger than all of us it's bigger than our petty conflicts between us personally this is the whole nation we're doing this for this seven pleasant weather kind of thing is in case didn't do it for India is made and it does seem to just instantly work everyone okay yeah I completely poverty for five minutes business so I think there's the post colonial thing which is pretty massive but then the idea of neo colonialism because there's a huge mines of western influence not just and the culture that's depicted in the film but also the film itself and how it's made how it's put together and say song and dances to the song and dance numbers both of them lads by the character of top on both of them concerning him being really drunk and I think at least one of those is during the time of probation where he's got secret T. hese smoker and sent champagne or something and say he's got poor strings actually can replace talking to us been in for a hundred he would seem to be quite the Indian films being a singer and a dancer the way that it's fifty eight into the narrative and this is in contrast to the rules of soaring tiger Zinda hai is inventive because rather than having a storage space in which it's completely fine to be able to just break into singing and dance which gives the storage space for the fantastical failed they create ways of doing it that doesn't change the nature of the story and I mean to make you go all right we live in this much closer I'm sorry in tiger Zinda hai it was to do with having musical accompaniments weights not soon Bonnie the characters that the it will be in a do you want to say for example whether to force isn't doing a very similar and what they're saying and the way they sounds to the voices of the two main characters three seventy six kind of coming out of the polls and then during the ending sequence there's a musical number of the films coming out to them they were like music videos yeah and the film and then another one is actually there's only those take their music other points there's no mistaking especially if you consider what a lot of people would regard as the language that I did to a deadly signifying that the interesting me again yes they don't necessarily fix Macy and Mrs story space you could actually read them as this is tough and strong confirmed the same and he's run amok you know because only twice the weekend characters singing and dancing and the both at social events whether celebrations going on in the first ones to do with temple Texas got the team together the first incarnation of the team together after the second World War and the celebration and people go oh type industrial grades it sing sing us a song it does this graphics on dancing and then the second one is the latest celebration Morris put the second version the team together but this one was to show us that his alcoholism is still not make any sense for yeah being quite grumpy records also for a lot of women and there's quite a few western white women that make up the backing dancers that suddenly appeared like that and the same and that's been laid down for that event ten people but then they end up amongst the crowd insulin because people sitting in this section I used and I think it's not second one is the one where he's trying to get his wife to dance with him it's been unsavory actually and then ends up in Poland with not one of the dancing white women a white woman who was not the social events it's quite well today and ends up hitting your interest homes with them the space he had so much to drink does this thing seems been sparked production yes there does seem to be an indication of subsurface each from one of the process the guy under Wadia yeah he seems to have directed a couple of guys to the spike tampon strings so the eagles radio serials so if you can get rid of him the songs in themselves so even hide a fan is a bit different to what we would consider what we've made make assumptions about I believe it's a stink but also they're quite modernized it's quite contemporaneously and arrangements that are being used there stop man hi much of the western influence is there and maybe in terms of neo colonialism in terms of the film production it's actually more how much of an American influences are rather than the predation plants because you count radiation twice well you would assume to be any kind of British film and these specially with the action films it was very exploding action name we say so yeah all the really cool stuff making everything look really cool and slash with this it was aggressive stand Sunday and was never repaired by was never so low it was sold out there is that we should see more Hindi films the next couple of months because I want to see just how normal it is to maintain song and dance numbers but not in the standard musical form of people just do this but to have some sort of storage space justification for wonderful singing and dancing to see more that are failing because we've seen the trailers who may have been exposed to the sounds and stitch it actually so before tiger Zinda hai movie fascinating that there was still in the bike path man that guy he based on a real story this real guy this revolutionary guy who took it upon himself to make menstrual products for women in his life and his speech in November he made a very simple machine that you can use to make your own that was a state thing the machine which you can buy for next to nothing so that women can save masses of money on that these luxury items section comes yeah and of course also in some cases just be able to have the module because yes you can physically get a hold of them to be difficult where's the trends we saw before gold definitely he there was one that was quite an aggressive I was coming across me like a sexual comedy or something it was really quite difficult to tell what the narratives could be the tone of these films if they're being funny or system is falling from one scene to display of sexual comedy and no I just wanna park from one tech indexes wife's name yeah and yet this mono something if I have a name or anything that's one group camp there wasn't really enough sure enough there was nice bits without ever quite funny but says her quite sweet baths where she'd be really annoyed at him and then she would say being away and cut off and he goes I know and of each other when they're both shopping to provision the monster yes just before that the Congress talking about music she's on the beginning of the month or sequence there with music with lyrics right and that's remarkably common aspects of narrative cinema when you have a couple in it whose relationship you want to suggest is improving that was an unusual moment it was quite a musical film for a film about field hockey that builds as well with their relationship because them and they're preparing the pads for the players there's a wee bit of innovatively stuff going on the ship and sometimes happens %HESITATION it's implied that it will happen it's very beautifully choreographed it's almost like a tent space in itself where they got this read send us one rose the mattress the other posters sheet over the internet got this beautiful with them as they go across the bags in the dorm the one points they get really affectionate the nicer Darlington's close to mesquite a matter this is actually causing focusing and there's an implication that they have some special time together I wanted to just point out that there was one moment very early on the film I think it's what we knew about twenty minutes from where we see worse for the closest stop close out of that conducts lying in the streets it's just three after having this long as an honest so I've been thinking throughout the film this is a following the sculpted depends on the Starz series and then realized it was just make up they have someplace I happily have mainly just how does the stock room to his face this was a lot so very very forties face rows for which is to say everything I had I'm twenty one think this thing with training this phone has a it's going to message is whatever your conflicts may be they are insignificant next to the needs of your country we get this in a loss of some locations will do nationalistic message that says you'll need to pull together for your country stop thinking of yourself as individual agents you want to collect but this film developed quite some length and it made it possible the drummer of putting the team together because when they got the second team and they've got personal time and then when the street field and trying to the team is keeping so that people can print job from various bits of India from three to two or three thousand clicks and not really speaking to each other is that on some routes rotating releases of notes being part of the team was training them now because yes yes will train and he comes in he realizes that they're not so full steam from that that's what led him to his father okay nice to meet you back in nineteen thirty six is being part of the world for services okay everyone's pretty okay six pounds and then it's something else yeah yeah that's exactly I don't I figured out before he says okay I want everyone to pick up this huge pile of bricks here take it to the other side of the Hokies %HESITATION individual team members of picking up to three bricks each running around saying he failed to put him down and then he says all right after you've done that well done now do you get this back and forth back and forth and after what three or four times a day you know you're just going OR senator does it's okay it's okay just tell in a moment when I do teaching I'm quite big on these kinds of situations work out his books of limitations which have to do with things just got over and I could tell you how to do it well I'm gonna let you mess it up three of all time yeah and then you can go and of course the best thing to do is that they should form a human chain impossible hello and that's the least effort way of getting the breaks from the sort of fell together and that's part of the building a team here we got to work together thing and that's something that the team in general has to learn but it's also what the prince character negative processing has to learn because he's the one who wants to send forward who just wants to score this is new one pulse and someone tells the story about the game he's most proud of which is the game for this team only won one and he did himself score single government okay and it was a game where the other team and realized it was pretty good and so they surrounded him with other clients yeah same for four people around him but he just can't speak people occupied so that his fellow players could do the work things are so proud because what he did at one point was nice to get the ball away answer this circle of other teams circle of people looking out to one of his other team members who attend school and that's the model and it takes a long time the whole phone to get that message yeah yeah said one of things in the second half of the final is that one of the yeah something's worked it says that he passes to him so that he can score so there's something going on they pasticcio therapy goes I think you get a phone I thought the team though they had actually happened before we went to the Olympics and I have been to the final that's how extreme yeah that was great for the film and it was a way for them to lay out this morning actually message now of course to be part of a collective is not necessary to be part of the national collective there are different sorts of cotton I like that idea of a film which says it doesn't cost you anything as an individual to be part of the group in fact it can benefit you as an individual Diversicare even though the way of grouping the film was so very Keena properties nationhood was itself the ideology which propelled the British administration to partition India at the same time is giving its independence what they thought would be the best thing to do would be okay these people want to have third representation these people have the representation so just give each in the country and splitting this groups that was %HESITATION an initiative unit into two separate countries so twenty three because I work so well with Ireland yes indeed that's not to say that the right thing to have done would have been to %HESITATION created a single country because that would still have bombs and explosives or still have yeah it's important to note sorry just that a lot of the characters actually coal India Hindustan while so I think that's a whole other aspect of this the movie's orders even before partition stuff this is this is a Hindu country which would be the same thing as your uncle in Europe or the UK or the British Isles Christendom which we wouldn't do that because that's not the way nation and does or should work should be theoretically organized tool maybe some of these words that's been emptied out with pre existing meeting such that's just a nickname for India about combining some sense that India is a Hindu country interests from one secular nation and even the film demonstrates how are you very people's beliefs and their customs there is a degree of Hindu nationalism in India this film seems to be against that form of nationalism please yeah idea this resistance is David just more like these things can coexist the six members of the team are invaluable actually the film seems quite strategically to grow this petition was about putting in these games mostly and we're not gonna give up on either of these groups the position of being the best players in the team we are going to send both of them aside for that particular part of place we can get that to six of the show the different economic backgrounds and so there's this really knows it's a problem that's pointed out quite a bit there is this we gonna party lines may need different types of citizen of India we can expect even final impact something a different country some people used to be in the Indian team now playing on a different team I still have as soon as they arrive things this shaking hands and hugging where what there seem to be expected to do this with the scene seems stuff at least this weather in Great Britain and having a great team seems the way it's supposed to happen is that Pakistan and India teams posted what pasta each other when I knowledge of it exist but then actually what we do with handshakes and hugs there's no internet is for people who are very good friends and colleagues the four countries were ripped apart from each other most agree that politicians giving one of at least because things like a million people don't want to create that that was a very bad thing to happens yeah and there's no democracy yeah and we must agree with the film's imposed to explore the benefits for the individual of being part of collectives %HESITATION level of this stuff but it is also still a highly nationalistic cinema which is only so the U. K. because one of I'd love to get this a kind of hackneyed simplistic idea about the sacredness of nation it might be skeptical about yes but this part of the world that we're in right now I it hasn't been very work being picked three not for a thousand years what's India and Pakistan three by this country so it's difficult seven can you just have to try and see it from the other side like it's a different form of nationalism when it's by taking back control of something this is a country that has been in control for a very long time and has exerted control over other parts of the globe for a very long time if you're in the country that's taken some of that back for yourself after you hundreds of years of colonialism colonial room I mean I think it's understandable that you're trying to find your own identity I mean I don't know enough about India I can really only speak from my own experience being on another island that has been colonized by six one six next identity the sense of place is nice and recklessness that package she I think it's very natural for humans to try and understand what they are and the world at their end and the place that they ran it down today is so much a part of he if he's being colonized because you don't know what your rate item today is necessarily if that makes sense coming from that perspective I understand why they would feel such a sense of attachments cherry and national identity when you haven't been allowed to have one and he don't know it's such a small part of the film but the Anglo Indian ones because he won double highly diluted by white western jeans do you need to be to be angry I was at one time Sastre somewhere is that enough to just Palestinians were women married off to fight or something thirteenth place you have to go back to the eighteenth century we are talking about rather rich white men he would move to India and deliberately specifically take Indian one as to whether there was choice involved I've always seen them but then again we can only three choices rolled back in place and spitting in the film there's the strong implication that the main character is an arranged marriage and the tests get on with it I suppose nationhood it means many different things according to circumstance because we're living in a nation where is the printer recently we would start to get completely okay with that nation being an administrative unit in the larger maybe that was something that we're getting some very okay with because the major nations in Europe until a point none of them have lived under the yoke of another nation from various say Catalonia which is just recently asserted its independence nation her to something that they very much want to hear because it's something that's really been deprived of and then you can set individual stories call in the middle of that with the likes of colonia with the likes of Ireland and I dare say race India Pakistan people get ripped away from the country and I'm not sure I don't think that they feel that they have because of the majority feeling they haven't got much choice I mean the kind of the only ones very problematic because they weren't allowed in the convo the people were intimidated into not voting there is no no side against independence there's no no arguments happening because people were intimidated into not giving them there were a lot of people he feels like I am both command and Spanish and European I feel that I am all of these things thank you my identity and British and Irish and Ulster and European I'm all of those things under responding units to respond I think it may be in a party that wants to be in the Mediterranean because I'm already freezing and there's ten more months success come Kokoraleis somebody all guests and I'm already two goals for India and Pakistan and you see this in the in the film actually it's emerging in the politics going on in the box office the film for people don't want to be ripped away but they have to stay in one place or another for their own safety they can travel anywhere in the way that K. they can expressively aren't anymore the way they K. they're not welcome in a country they feel is their own when that happens and you think well okay I'll just go and be this other thing because they won't he it's very difficult I think if you've been born into a legacy that hasn't had to think about those things then it's difficult maybe for you to say that I can get it I can see this identity such a huge issue where I come from as your sense of belonging to your nation continues just struck me that this constraining on India having won the field hockey I'm in the middle of the foldable twice for more in the morning and again afterwards this president is that message there is in is an awesome mission and even appointment was part of an empire it was already a moral some nation van the mention the reserve ahead of time that's how it works to your keeping trying to people this came up for me to break out artist while to keeping trying to people here better thinking conserve better basically they get stuff done so he kicked in tiny cakes and shake their heads you keep them working free you don't let them believe that they can be anything other than your servants that's what they're born to date because of their funny colored skin and then third silly voices or whatever arbitrary reason you are led to believe that there the last year humanly it's a similar thing slavery by another name for most brave to acknowledge that independent India walls and less tolerant nation moving having a sit down conversations people going yeah I simply cannot remain in this nation guess what I implied was things were back to previously even though that meant things were better %HESITATION the imperial rule transaction I want to go out of nine inter community phone and service from spoken about the idea of India being something that had to be built so a lot of effort after independence from something that serves its internal medicine just automatically became this highly caring country this was a film is still growing India is incomplete without Paxton and you think well it's a relatively young country and it's a very old country in one sense in a very own country and another what was put together into India by the British was a sensitive dozens of independent kingdoms monarchies one of our characters in this film is a prince is a member of the royal family all of an area of the Punjab which is still living in Kuala luxury even though it doesn't have its power so this new knowledge meant that there is this whole sensitive medical dynasties and what I think that my running shoes well then now ones that looks at different levels ruler full still existing and nesting even now still maintain the status is being part of the world from where India is not eighteen century things throwing off its shackles India it is a thing made by third even that's implicitly being influenced by this phone let's just mention for a moment be just taking off all of his clothes because negative to show that he's a really generous prince I think it was a redeeming thing about item that is completely out of now and it's not in line with anything else that he does but just after he's been headhunted buying top industries driving to contest back to the station is owned come on the way that regulate see someone sitting next to the road stops without explaining what he's doing Nick server to this writer who sitting in the sun right takes off all his clothes except for his underwear gives them to the crime scene on side of road gets back in the car and drives off and that's it interesting no no site characterization is picked up on let's run of him being on this but knowing that haven't realized none of that so I do wonder how many different edits that script to consider whether that malicious acts in the left hand there's no other heads of him being mildly humanists in anyway so I just wanted to get a naked scene and before week yeah yeah I think we're ever unfolding about the different issues and things that it's nice actually to go to different places in the world and I think this is probably the first non anglophone films that we've discussed on the recording because we didn't do one for tiger Zinda hai it into one for that we didn't do one for the spirit of the beehive I think when they watch that we do watch quite a lot of films and all different languages I think partly because you're concentrating on subtitles it's difficult to take notes so I'm waiting for caixabank taking notes during films so this one actually I think we've done quite awhile everybody because we saw this film days ago and speech you could see notes on the internet with us tonight John is a few things signed this morning because of the mass we have not done this with notes into were totally awesome they're not models and brands are still working we will do this again because the phone they then films from outside of the versus national cinema we used to watching friends stories and traditions even though there you can be part of the conversation on Facebook and Twitter where we welcome suggestions for future topics and guest speakers please support the podcast on Petri on dot com many thanks for listening and supporting catch you next time
transcript

Audiovisual Cultures episode 22 – Selma automated transcript


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welcome to episode 22 of audiovisual cultures the podcast that explores and examines different aspects of signed an image based cultural production and their wider impact sons contacts this weekend G. Sheila and I have a post being discussion of Selma the dramatization of Dr Martin Luther king junior's involvement with trying to be in order right and Alabama and centred on that kind of sound them as part of the broader civil rights movement in the nineteen sixties in the United States before we get into that's a big thank you to all our listeners so far whether your regular or you checked in the night the piccolo TA if this is your first time a very warm welcome and I really hope you stick with tests and hope you find a discussion she sold they are usually analytical but of course we often get the personal responses to found that's wild quite a few different frames have been building over the first twenty or so episodes girl hating girl experiences in a little bit of thought comes in today but also the fight for rights and recognition for people who aren't and I'm using scare quotes the defaults are the dominant type of human being thank you so much less than really hope this is useful for very aware of our position as white people in the U. K. dating my thesis questions chatting up by the civil rights movement in the United States try and pick up where we left off a few weeks ago when we were talking about a very very very C. Taylor because she's started to make points by the fiftieth anniversary events %HESITATION freedom said they around you cascina partially because it was in nineteen sixty seven what was then called the university of Newcastle upon Tyne awarded to doctor Martin Luther king an honorary doctorate yes and we've just watched Selma very very late to the party on the phone I think we've both been meaning to watch out for %HESITATION for nearly four years since it came late we've only just managed to get the opportunity to watch it I'm a great believer that you see a phone when you need to see it and I'm failing I think I feel more politicized and more ready mark and James waste on going civil rights issues and particularly this is a great photographs and just yesterday I spent the afternoon on the streets in new castle trying to get people to to months democracy and try and do something to try to tame voter quality and portion of representation and to make votes matter for everybody it's not quite the same since civil rights movement in the United States in the nineteen sixties but it's part of an ongoing struggle with it explains why when you gave me this list of fifteen films this year I gravitated toward so much as opposed to say finding your feet a fantastic woman will hostels a fantastic woman again that's about a whole other set of separate because offset by a trans person trying to get her rights to be who she is and to have her relations department National Party guys but that's a whole other thing for a lot of the time so our focus is on a fed different nice cell mmhm which is really slow at the end of twenty fourteen in the US so we're not quite four years late but we are quite connected to one of those phones has been hunting around at the periphery of my list of stuff to see for quite some time and I say well it would you consider yeah and I think it's just passion as us of this and because %HESITATION I think we extended mentioning Martin Luther king a few weeks ago it from there talking about the C. T. other it's on our minds not just because I got from Kim might roughly forty years after the events at the back stick play yes for us being based in Newcastle upon Tyne S. open quite prescient because Martin Luther king was awarded an honorary doctor here not long before he was assassinated I think it was about six months ago he wanted to be Newcastle in November nineteen sixty seven and eight in Livonia David it's a yellow I think it is fantastic as smiling thinking he's amazing accents yes because we recently saw him and he and the United Kingdom as print thing kings say four months it's really hard to say when their prosthetics with a little bit of hand work hi usually resembles the historic figure he's print because he just watches lots of archive files that person speaking and just a docks that resting phase comes the way that they stick out certain parts of that face when they're talking on those points they were I was losing the media this is a person being mildly thinking I'm just going yes this is obviously certain A. M. and states I thought that was archival but then it's him either that or they've done a seamless mix of the tape yeah I suppose for the benefits of fearlessness we'll find out that the way to the end speech is done is audio archive footage and then after about a minute or so the archive footage then we start to get the visuals of yeah Jim Montgomery from the capitol building that and stick with that technique of cross cutting between the past in the past mmhm how concert film they can if it's just within a short time frame for a longer time frame that's a consistent editing structure like there's this constant exchange because we're still in the past so many of these issues I mean especially in the past two years I think probably that's why the film still so prescient Esther how Spain continue to mergers of black people there's continued racial violence spends taking part in the United States but it's happening in the U. K. S. while she set the phone to packs are issues that are ongoing he said it was about an event that happened roughly forty years before it was actually fourteen now serves nearly half a century in the past the sure to be historical I think I think and it's not that was fantastic as a piece of historical drama for pointing out the logistics behind the protests having Oprah Winfrey's character beyond she's she's trying to register to vote and then the simple set of circumstances where the registrar clearly in Austin have questions that no one there's now where she is as always greeting her from registering to vote and that's the way the film shows that this is what's happening across the south and it's not quiet determination to continue trying to tell you what sneakily writes Veronique and they allow you to vote countrywide this is a legal rights and then a little later on several members of the leadership of the SCLC the southern Christian leadership conference are discussing the larger question of the prevention of African Americans from voting they point out that in order to register to vote you need to have a function as someone who very much is for you it was themselves effectively so if you don't know anyone who can vote and pop because all of your friends and relations are African American and none of them have yet been able to register to vote that's a box and then have several characters listing this catalog of ways in which African Americans and prevented from voting and then another seem to have king himself talking to Lyndon B. Johnson saying its voting and it's so many other things as well the rating on the not being able to fart facts because you can see my jury members to develop and so that means that people are getting left off from crimes that they've clearly committed because the juries that I've been asked to set make decisions about the movement of people who or what and if the murderers and one is after Americans that say there's injustice is something they did a great job of calling plays the specific legal issues including technicalities the these people affecting about anyway that way you wouldn't ordinarily have a single scene where one person in a predicament and sits down and explains what it is has led them to create a political movement in the first place many of different avenues for providing us with some information that as well as a good sensitivity to when things got complicated so why it was for example on the second attempt to March across the Edmund Pettus bridge the state troopers to stand aside and let the marchers but then came just stops and goes the same thing just turns around expect well he needs time should everybody follows and needing to induction moment of silence totally unspoken communication and prior and then he sounds back up and walks through college and that's is that something just and should have been him just not the route he can't even pinpoint it himself he just knew which turned to violence if they continue to this is later on it's still done in his %HESITATION an example of the tensions that exist between the leaders of this movement in the dollar we get little snippets of what it was the content in the meantime back and he mentions that he reckons that there was later bird looks at it yeah to prevent them from getting to Montgomery yeah they got past this country never fail to get back with doctor from getting back again and their their fate would be cut off their past was not fair and so it is better to wait for the court case check out a legal hearing and then to have to be that you had a nice and a non violent way that was a detail in the original story where I mean you are offline right retelling a story like this would go No Way and mia yes sign using backed movement but an entertainment so make it quite complicated because they're used to these precious offense a bit too great that's a bit too inconvenient to fit into a narrative arc and yeah and even I kept that one I suppose it works to an extent as a setback moment well it has to be that moment of conflict because Simone of conflict within the members of the movement because they're challenging him in the paper here on his side are saying they could people are angry they need answers because this is March where a lot of white people travel from all over the country to be less than minutes pointed alright should journalists are counting had since when at the start of the crowd is Caucasian they describe them so lotus summer clergy from all over the country of all different grades people are angry and they want an explanation because they're ready for this March he's held accountable to his own and he says something along the lines of I drive whether they be angry and he hates me and people waiting %HESITATION dads this consequence where you can see him suffering the pain of the people even though his delivery strategy is activists into situations where white officials will lose that rack and will cross the line so people are going to get hurt and starts to show its collateral damage it's not that he's hurting these people but he's knowingly possessing a stretch in which he and his fellow activists are getting in harm's way Bahamas in just because but he's doing it directly to the audience of a lot of films about there's going to be casualties and him repeatedly being seen taking the pain of a boat so take a moment to signal how star studded space for more because maybe this doesn't count as a star from the point of view of the United States him but Tom Wilkinson as these subjects they presently Johnson and I mean it's the two headliners of the caster predation so how David Oyelowo and Tom Wilkinson I'm going to go to work so cruel to say that someone is B. list or C. list but we've got not exactly top flight stars such as Giovanni Ribisi do you recognize the people and I don't know if he's on a long list and I really like to run every PC this paper like Cuba Gooding junior and Oprah Winfrey of course and these are people who don't really have a lot to say when they're on screen they're reading dynamite but they're just not on screen very much mean Oprah Winfrey he only ready has lines when she's playing Alice Cooper trying to register to vote not one of those very arty scenes but it wasn't enough sometimes to shelter seconds long Anne Cooper sorry they might say they're coming back to the store will shoot someone for about three seconds is the highest paid person in itself okay and and but I don't want to Martin chain is that judge rose you've got quite a lot of actors I'm going to be just cynical for a moment because you've got quite a lot of white actors and I noticed Brad pets within the exec producer and credits and he was also an executive producer on wall St twelve years a slave so this seems like a bit of a humanitarian project it pays to support African American film making and to make it by African American history whatever you think of that but I think that's something just to note Bruce and Tim Roth as George Wallace he was the governor of Alabama Alabama he was a democratic government nothing troubling is naked face and rarely I mean the things that he says we're hearing a lot of this rhetoric knife from the far right and the United States so it's quite troubling it is mentioned only dimensions at one time will consume as LBJ mentions at one point that Wallace is quite socialist but is there to stop him from being complete segregation racism so actually there's that moment where I just got your northern president played by any stretch near having %HESITATION quite a bit to re squabbles in the White House with the southern Congress person played by an Englishman both of them doing mathematics and that you've got that shadow of Vietnam over the whole thing %HESITATION hi they use the press hi Martin Luther king manages to orchestrate things to use the press to get attention and siphoned from PH newspaper attention away from the war as well and this is another headache for Lyndon B. Johnson and in the end I mean after quite for Hammond arguments from him thanks I think I'm gonna be on the right side of history he talks about you nineteen eighty five he says to the governor neither of us are going to be here in nineteen eighty five I I want to be remembered as being on the right side of history the next thing is he's appropriating the words from the civil rights movement these will ever come to a point where he finishes with we will overcome as if he just made it up on the spot you've got a lot of that you've got a lot of fight terrorism which is quite cynical then you've got people like the judge played by Martin Sheen who youthful he's reading the letter of the law as it sounds doing what judges tend to do the American film switches go now what we're gonna do this right even though it's gonna take a few days no procedures are going to be slightly observed %HESITATION unobserved in my current case that's how U. S. so making films about judges there's a handful of things that and you're still making art represented almost invariably judges seem to want to okay %HESITATION supported by a lot of other well known names including the rap icon James back into this Michael Papa John first major clout and Michael provision just looks scared with time so you did a good job %HESITATION Wendell pace as has there Williams there's one house that was from the Y. con el the state's person detectives from the war so a big cost and one way I found myself going because representing all these historical figures it's not doing that thing of keeping the list of main characters comfortably small and making sure everyone says each of those names about four five times windows ten minutes I actually find that rainy and transcend because again just to bring up the state the queen relation again here I was really quite happy here the names being repeated because in so many of these kinds of pastries the names fade away it's personalized and one figure heads and that's what happens and hunger with the hunger strikes and then makes presence felt by both the sons and none of the other man he died our names and not from there's a whole other chap to be how to buy them %HESITATION it's got my own feelings about that but it's just tip my diet because it's on my mind because some of the three aces and she's going back to things like twelve years a slave because there's casa she satisfied you've got Martin Luther king who speaks about manta and he's quite middle class barely see if other than his activism life is so different from the lives of the people in Selma and on the bomber it is just making me think a little bit of twelve years a slave for you've got this class conflict within the group of people you know and he mentions that black people he stand by they're just as bad as if he mentions that and one of his rising sermons and the church having this difference initially between the SCLC and what's cool snake which in the student nonviolent coordinating committee have been working in Selma before the SCLC turned up having that conflict is a good way of signaling there's politics all over the place here and it goes from the disagreements that Lyndon B. Johnson house with Monsignor speaking all the way down to disagreements between characters who were within the margin between some of my car one thing that I have to get down now because I didn't make any notes for which is from and you did so I'm gonna get this done before I forget it did you notice just how many of these conversation scenes were shot so the characters were not in the same frame and in the coverage of the two different characters talking the most common set up is that each character would be very close to one edge of the frame looking into the nearest branch as if they were talking with somebody who they were December from was it there's gonna be severing line very close to the face removing them from the person the trying to interact with and most of these conversations were along the lines of we start something some sort of disagreement and then we end up in disagreement but the cinematography wouldn't change they'd still be short in these separate frames and then Moses in the face the quite close up to the fragments that seem to be aware just constantly iterating separation between yeah S. reading of the law the ticket the the earlier conversations between Martin Luther king and his wife Coretta the tensions in their marriage are very clear there's quite a pivotal scene where they've been getting the speeding nasty phone calls I think directed to her saying very horrible things better husbands as a mass shooter an activist but also as an adulterer and playing quite today things like the one that you may prefer you to A. as in times of people having sex the implication being that that's a recording of him with a different woman so our conversation and sheets that's very practically there and %HESITATION separated frames and she for a lot of it as standing in the king dynamite he setting so he's being interrogated and away by her so I got that sense very much and it doesn't let him off the heck the film doesn't idolize him as this great hero this great man hero of history it does actually hold him accountable it does include him in the culpability for deaths and people being hurt but also the treatment of his wife and I go back to his family while he's doing this but somebody has to the displacement echoes through those trials if later ship and the sacrifices that have to be made it there has to be expensive house the sacrifice there has to be about collateral damage even on an emotional level but also he's a preacher I think it's fairly it was a fairly open secret that he did have relationships with other people I don't know very much backed out so we'll leave it at the office but yes she challenges him there's a very clear indication that she knows what he's been up today she doesn't need those phone calls tell her what he's been up today I also find when he's doing speeches at never test centers and on him there's usually a wide angle lens being used so the screen is quite bold G. hunters with a simple point toward bolji basically when the next shop with the same environments often cited angle and with the standard yes the fifty moments yes I find it was happening up when he was giving some sort of speech and he would be center of the frame and it would be curving with him as a focal point about evading create other people sitting behind him setting to the Hispanics things side hand side it behind him to always with him now after having him alone when he's giving speeches never doing that individualizing alpha five eight in one or two shots but yeah yeah maybe just for emphasis not to the extent that you perpetuate and conventional way of filming something like this where you have it's own hero and of course notably the family called Martin Luther king it's called Salma it's up by the time it's a boy those people by their rights it's their fight it's not all about him it's only part of his much larger story the show many of the people who created for people he does that thing in the end credits well before getting to the end credits on the way to them during the speech at the end where you've got a name given on what happened to that person and so the president to go from there if there's a white woman Hey wasn't named I think she has one or two lines of dialogue in the whole thing was named in the and she was named in the dialogue Farley user point site that this woman who had come to help after seeing the horrors on TV of the brutality of the place two words the criteria actually went to the courthouse to try to register to vote in the first place she felt compelled to say something and shows her and cried and said she was killed five hours after that speech driving people boxes so even things like soft acknowledging that there were a life there not every white person state by and that all this happened at doesn't do this thing of what happens and the help of white people there to see if yourself today it just says these people were with us and we remember them and I acknowledge them today as far as common awareness of heard Martin Luther king was on it Dr Martin Luther king junior what's the first I was kind of this king was quite secular one because the most emphasis that's put on him being a believing Christian is that one moment when they're in jail after the initial conflict is happening somewhere outside the courthouse and the one who's in the same cell with him having very whispered conversation and they start quoting a little base of something from the book of Matthew the gospel according to Matthew that's it most of the speeches that you want to take place in churches was gonna cross behind in their speeches have no religious content in the metal and there's even a few that sweat during speeches of from ones that happen outside the church what he'll do better religious content of the act but it's often at the point where people are cheering and chanting and clapping so much that you can hear me saying save lives and restraint areas this is on account of king in which the emphasis is on humanist activism and having listened recently to the speech that he gave in but the only degree castle those numbers just kind enough to having all these other companions are members of the SLC I think some of them wearing that because yes school garb some of them who are also preaches not wearing their TVS will go having these people busy interacting with each other in a way where the membership of religious organization is mostly irrelevant to what they're doing is a very well is very twenty first century way of representing this and I'm not going to tell whether it's a historic accurately representing this because I don't know enough about me I don't know if it's dying plates one offs and I don't know where divinity stones on this either so I don't really want to comment yeah I was wondering even with what there is in the family because there is a pre using of because when I hear that I always feel like the couple used to and this isn't going to send message to you Dennis you're selling yourself short I was just going there but yeah I was going there yeah this one really telling moment which is after the second attempt to cross the bridge when they've actually been next week but then I decided not to go yeah after that there's the SCLC %HESITATION the snake members having that discussion in the views of the church afterwards and none of them mentioned anything to do with the car there we go sign within the next year there's two white preachers CM down from the north to join it themselves concluding that that's what happened to K. so three Hey all this was something to do with divine intervention that's not sent by anyone except for these two I think based on file though say hysterical to priests in Boston so they publicly of Irish descent I'm guessing there in Boston then it's likely it's them he speculated by the divine intervention of wireless you could actually read to start crunching dine fascinating and the silence of says just a moment of quiet reflection and thinking taking pause to think this right because we've seen him already it set him up as the street he just it's like a game of chess where he can see five mesa had he can anticipate what the other players going to date it's very similar and now he's thinking this is too you say they're gonna just satisfactory they're going to close the door after us and we're gonna get stranded and we're going to get paid not ten miles down the road from a gonna have nowhere to go I wanted to purchase was the unitarians this Friday on the second watch synthesis was on multiphase memberships because I have the orthodox either Greek or Russian orthodox guy Joseph was gone eastern orthodox rabbi several nuns and then when it came to that meeting down everyone else not down yet it's clear that some people praying is kept out of the loop when prime at least it wasn't clear that they were it was evidently something members non religiously specific as far as you do that you have a motive to do that now anyway to avoid diminishing and affinity people might fail with this moment but at the same time can have that same moved in at the time he had the motive to appeal to the small but none the less significant non Christian population of African Americans it also did nothing which historical drama tends to do which was that he was going wrong if not done too I was thinking a lot of the standard night that's not wrong just over two hours there's some historical drama school on for nearly three different ones and a lot of kids movies recently yeah I used to the eighty minutes type thing I don't know I think we post a few times because they're watching it at home so we were %HESITATION thing and running a writing things so we probably failed to come more televisual approach task to be fair probably in the Senate map I think I would have been correct and I probably would have seen the time go when I was noticing some really interesting %HESITATION signed adding and sign design there is a lot of asynchronous signs there was one particular point and it just seems like a very small interim moments but there is a part for you you for watching several people getting out of the car walking towards another group well and you could hear voices in the sign track he didn't hear the car doors closed when you saw them close and then it was a bit of a delay before you actually call the shots that was attached to the voices of the people who were actually ordering those voices and those words there was quite a lot of fun happening there was quite a lot of overlap and I think it was part of the idea of the messiness of tying the slippages and history things were happening at once even if they weren't at the same time ever added it is after happening at sametime so you were getting a plan being described and then and Jim and they saying that cross coat with it actually happening with the white preachers getting beaten up you're seeing that cross coat with the membership for the correct going to Martin Luther king what he she having to tell him and that takes it all right that they were beaten to death according to corporate computer at least the one who was the focus of that scene is one of the more attention from the American the other dog two days left and so I did what the phone was in there was it was yeah we're just gonna show not so the character died the same day or this is monsoons marked for a quick breakfast in terms of this king's colleagues informing him about two two days after the which is probably gonna happen as soon as they heard because there are the other are they I find it on clear actually because it seems like their attackers were saying to them you've come here and they were talking about it go going home so it's saying that they weren't yet back in Boston box when was it James was telling came by the incidence than just hearing about it he was referring to it happening in Boston maybe I've picked up from five is unclear on then where their location was when they were taxed to crystalline sama I think they were on purpose for where the king is currently uses the SCLC also work on three there could have been a distance between the mall because it's fast enough backsheet that when they're in sound that they go and stay with a woman I can't remember her name it seems to be a regular thing and then more and more manner and she saw her there since repairing also on Spokane on their knowledge labor of women underneath all of this that's happening service woman probably Boston type of the marches but she was looking after all of these men who were running everything giving ample Oregon feeding them so it seems like they were all because they were in a domestic setting he shaving in the bathroom and a whole group of them go to him what's happened so it seems that they're in that domestic setting where they're all staying together I find that seen it just depends on the player as to where everybody was yes their stock collapse of times throughout the film and of course it's the narrative films so that has to be a reduction and what's happened up there for a long period of time when Malcolm X. was introduced and shuffled off rather quickly yes that was an example of that definitely there's a scene in which he was used to somebody who wants to be part of the Selma activities and he had changed from the mechanics that kept being mentioned by the account as early on as somebody who was Millicent Simmonds for contrast to king's form of protest which capping stressed as being non violent and then suddenly we're having a scene where king is saying one of the summons you've recalling when Kennedy died and then he says and then one Malcolm X. was also recently taken from us and I hear her say about the Max having given a sermon and that same church three weeks before yeah this is very recent so did %HESITATION sort of make it pretty clear that this was a small segment of a much bigger story if you instances in principle by just having people seem so tired my cursory hiring all these buttons and wasn't just came on most about having that text and saying this is what happened to reach these people what's wrong so the the film in being about some of was just about a little bit of more indicated to be a much long story of course and your phones which have historical subjects students tend to do that I find intestine was the firm being G. it is almost by that reminder consummate with the text being typed on the screen and the fat people signed up the typewriter and a half the only Kerrier farms have so much from the X. files because they seem to think that this constant presence of the FBI surveilling everybody logging everything for just a moment I thought alright service techs can keep appearing on screen and it's giving us the events that's also occurring at the time because the FBI has been told to Sputnik people but does it mean that the FBI these records count as an informal version of and right and so I thought I'd seen the film so closely fertilized in these characters and based on screen Texas antagonist stick that project that it kind of reminds me of those epistolary novels where you don't just get losses of one person you get replies as well clearly we get in those numbers yet most of you have a main character and then the replies are with critical of the main character because there was someone to be mean to them some of the person or something and there is clear even though you're getting an account given by antagonists that they don't count as official or unofficial Aratus because we've already had the view of the world the best on talking stick to ready it was one where sting compressing the larger fields of conflicted motives that this phone and I did forms of several points going but we now gonna have another speech where personality who has a motif that conflicts with person B. is gonna have a damn good go at persuading passing by a young person B. is going to look very closely at them and then it's going to do what I want to do anyway that was just instance after instance after instance of that one point where someone actually managed to persuade somebody else to do something and it was one one of the snake members I think it was shown he told the story about having been attacked when he was younger and told it to king who is driving around in the Continental shop with the coverage of the two individual character yeah pretty much right up against the nose and came just listened and listened and seems to be influenced by that speech this is such an American cinema things having characters who are so strong and so rhetorically able they do a speech I never around and goes from being completely opposed to them to be completely in favor of the subject that a little bit mostly did they there's a big speech and nobody of any power these are expensive at least gets convinced there's also the people giving speeches to crowds in the crowds are already one of our situation but that's a different one the nudity that speech that Janice gifts and the car it's Martin Luther king's words that he's reciting he's talking about haven't been beaten and then the next day he makes sure he's out of speech that king is giving do you remember that and came says what did I say and he tells them about his younger self said so K. hang is one over by the words of his younger self so again they're slippages of history I did for myself thinking how much time is just puff since the last scene that we so wondering if what to be expecting any character to pay gray hat in the next scene the thing is absent was the on screen text saying three days later maybe it's a way that we can share in that kind of history that's quite narrative vice actually when the rate these histories so it's quite natural translated stuff and film as well and it's not doing it in a way that is to disorientating thought thought back and forth so I think she ends of the past and the present as well as the past present and future actually because to everybody in the film the reference nineteen eighty five fifths twenty years in the future where is up thirty years in the past for us there's an awareness that history is being created and their authors of history here and then there should revise search of history retelling the stories and highlighting things that were hidden that we're not located and histories even just a little moments like I said the same to more domestic chores or if they on the same play upper of the women often make friends even if they're on the periphery things safe when things get a bit much for Kane and he telephoned the female singer he needs comfort he needs something to give me strength and she sings the gospel song holy objects that was one of those moments with a %HESITATION he's gonna turn out to be a flounder are quite clearly but as you know he just finds out someone who knows to sing to him and she doesn't care and the person she's in bed with all citizens in the cat because this is for because it's their fight today and they're doing what they can for this fight there is quite a nice you alight scene when things start to turn for the better when knights road I certainly can't remember if it's just before the second time they take the March or the third but when I think about a whole day as I mentioned the command of famous people and the singers and performers to the come dine and join in I was thinking as well at the rate it's very quick but it's right at the start and it's a very powerful scene the part where a bomb goes off the four girls are murdered is really quite harrowing but I think it's notable that they were coming down the stairs never talking about normal things that concerned them I think we were talking about it with their hair with the difficulty of working with their hair and talking about it I think each other's mothers and so and so I think her hair just like that I don't think she uses Carter she sued the parking with the type of hair that they've caught I haven't seen a wrinkle in time the man girl character he carries the film one of her concerns as her hair is learning to embrace the texture of hair that she has I just remember when our income times coming out people are starting to see this and she gave it a very nice Twitter was flooded with mothers thanks thank you so much for this because my daughter not loves her frizzy hair my daughters and I love to %HESITATION curry half my daughters and I love the coarse hair there's this embracing and I think this is been a concern of hers I think it's something that smacks of white privilege as we don't think of bites that kind of thing all the products and all of our shops are into our kind of hair you need specialized products or he cancels quick meant to deal with certain kinds of hair everything around us privileges are higher so such a tiny moment and it's an incentive part and it sets up just the normal these little girls are and then it makes the tragedy and the violent subject ass even more extreme that this could be and you know girls talking about their hair and I'm not sure the age of self discovery any particular scene was one of those customers stickier resting ones right at the moment was very calm I'm shocked with slow moving characters very very warmly lit and very simple environment right the moment where that's interrupted by all this debris flying across the shop and the noise of the explosion right the moment the speed of the sound and the speed of the visuals get separated the originals instantly slow down to slow motion but the sound continues on a snowy ice and so we here at the huge off the mouth because it's lots and lots of rubble falling to the ground and it rains take tennis matches yeah nine what was the most unlikely observer and then at the same time what we getting is the scholastic flying of stuff to the %HESITATION and there's dust and it's all quite yellow and you can see bits of lives and that's a fact that you're saying is that someone upside down you know to really abstract I'm not is held for quite some time notably as well because they were coming down a staircase and there's lots of little details and up to date I just the way they were putting their hands on the banisters to turn around the corner status emphasis and the shots the shouts for help back far enough that you can see the curls you can see the stained glass windows the same glass windows there with images of an African American man and woman their faces and it's so rare to have those kinds of visual representations mark this as a black yes possibly a black place of worship it was like to mention that there's a chance yeah it's giving you those details and should he hire date %HESITATION this commission's going efforts even places of worship that are being targeted with that kind of violence they don't care he said the building already insidious things that was said during the north American contract was the only good one is a dead one that's what helped me it's not mentality of hair for planted those bombs and of course these are people who've never held accountable for their actions again we mentioned that former talking to fight the rape of Recy Taylor B. because that same issue from twenty years before that this was what she kept coming up against was that it was white police officers descended from family members of her family white men on the jury all white men at every stage of the way so they could never get any justice and twenty years on this is still the case I don't think is mentioned in the phone but just take a quick look and a bomb is described as having been planted by the KKK and the KKK later mentioned over it but if the endings text but there seems to be a decision not to bring them up it could be the idea of actually not giving them any credence I think it's just that overall sense of white supremacism that's coming to an end you don't have to belong to a man named organization because it shows the last city beach the white preachers to death it shows their faces they're not hiding and they know they're going to get away with that and they call them there's only one thing worse than and Marty so white and March as well they say they associates number still saying this were so famous in terms of racial discrimination in terms of sexual discrimination LGBTQ plus advice and many countries getting traded and stocks seem like today and I think also in terms of racial violence and topping for a range of reasons it just seems there are certain people Hey want the excuse for that kind of behavior because they get away with that under the prevailing climatic I suppose but the rain began at the right time to say this because at the time that this film was me it's Brock Obama was the president of the United States of America tonight America's under Donald Trump white supremacy is rising and that terrifying way another terrifying rates even in the U. K. with the aftermath of the E. U. referendum two years ago there has been at an all time digit amazing of racial abuse use two or three people on a rice effects upon the system here these are fights that are far from over there far from one twenty one to the room we need to show my face you've got a system to make about the extent to which to explore why it is that these Confederate flag waving apartments the back coming up against why it is they think what they think and the George Wallace carried the make up and hair the government mostly by tomorrow also the general bye okay what Timothy articulated a little bit of the thinking that was behind the opposition but it was really quite cursory Sir I got a sense of the firm was going southerners I'm not mistaken this is big that's not the way I would have done it I was at least a first look at why it is people for what they thought because as you know I've told many occasions to explain why someone thinks of the something is not to justify why they do it it's to better understand causality and that's what I'm saying because I'm too can prevent happening again in future so there was quite a few instances in which where these people were they were just these nameless white characters who were just shouting abuse obviously that's exactly what these activists came up against but of course is not producing dramas like this to have shots of them is the wise officials having those discussions are meant that there was some the one where Wallace was talking to the guys seem to have a local state troopers and also someone else who was a local law enforcement that respects the fact that by and large it just seemed to be these people are just bigoted and that's the fact that they become possibly be that anyone could have and should have been convinced of something that they might like to have convinced ourselves what I suggest is that there's something intrinsic about being of a certain ethnicity that means you're just going to be lacking an understanding of people of another ethnicity and the way in which the film went over some white people who understanding was if there's white people were religious I suppose that may be the place where the film was going was making this up too what is culture was that it was going what brings people together of the life blood of this activist movement is the payroll people all face regardless of faith but I think there were because it was an old people to do the clergy there and there's the woman he's highlighted it's hers as she sees it on TV and she's devastated there's no indication either way about her being there because she's religious he seems more like a humanitarian see the warm because it was a very quick brief shots was the one who should sit on the couch with a guy saying on TV and he was consoling her she was devastated to announce the woman Hey you told at the end she was she her being there getting night packs and things and then after speech and she said one viewer told she's not named correct phone number her name is given a natural choose a sauce needed after the state okay are centered to them I think there is a KKK there was there was a handful of instances of people so they were just changing that mark had acted in seem to be at least it wasn't obvious that there was a religious motivation to go first first one things that seem to be employed was that these one people came and joined the move from the north brother VS runs on fifteen February the educated probably middle class I mean they had enough money to build a gap there and give up their time a lot of them are women because women encourage J. mostly you mentioned that the thermal stresses that women in these bolstering roles but also on the March is just north and then leave yeah yeah %HESITATION there everywhere I said yeah that was pointed out by one of the historians and the rape of Recy Taylor as well as that if you watch all the archival footage of both king's speeches women are all the way through Christ our old place they're going to spring creek is about leadership will be men because one of them was a woman is dying mash when he's in the car yeah she's not really highlighted that much but she is there she is a presence we must also just come back to the this is how American films represent judges I want to come back to me this is how American films represent Jagger Hoover's because yeah he was just evil %HESITATION eagles evil tech stuff and I think the guy he plays American members name but he's got one of those familiar faces because he does loads of small roles in TV and I think he cites many evil people in the axe files and programs like that his name is Dylan Baker I was a really nice for our well meaning people he's probably one of those guys who can play really horrible people these but we really love the person he was in planes trains and automobiles it's been a load of tally why do we recognize him all right and spend around today he was in happiness yeah that was yeah his character in the film was performing characters in a wonderful mysteries wasn't concerned that's where I recognize him from actually probably as the sun made me Spiderman two and three yes %HESITATION January third he's never given to get drafted in the exiles he's not since I've sent items and it really sucks that surveillance angle the distrust of everything it's very post McCarthy it feels like that legacy still going on ten years later not to trust anybody wires through the homes phones being tops I was thinking actually because there was a lot of and the sign was again the destructive signed your maybe sing a montage of other things happening but you've got this phone call and the audio you're hearing it as if it's a recording of a phone call rather than hearing either end of the phone call and it was reminding me of the tapes of phone calls planning and Errol Morris's the folder for the documentary thank you Robert McNamara's talking about his involvement in Vietnam and he of course was under and and be Johnson throughout much of our phone calls or send to me Johnson not quite sketchy Spain gosh when today today that %HESITATION that is over ten years ago it is just reminded me about like I was hearing the signed up the recording of a phone call I was seeing as well as the montage is on screen of saying these tapes to cassettes turning on the charm because it is reminding me of top secret recordings that were being managed to avoid a particular I'm thinking about you were seeing M. L. K. his four children and they're all in bubble baths and he's talking to my mother already slate and you're hearing this phone call looks to trying to plan something and saying I want to put it off for a day on to the next Marshall Friday because I've got stuff to do my family and the people who were there and so much and it's still nurses who speaking with a guy from snake that younger yes I know it was ready to go this is the ideal time you can do this I see that might be another instance where MLK was actually persuaded to do some yeah by John there is a possibility %HESITATION I mean he's maybe he sees himself and this useful guide he is behind him he has been inspired by him so again it's he's being in fired by younger version of himself channel three Jonas that septentrionalis Wayne his middle class family night on the poles of the activism and doing what's right for the greater good I wonder if C. B. S. the channel had to get in their place being named rise because it's specifically about channel that's running the violence of the first March when the county says town TV the Quincy B. S. I've been looking up who was that I think it's got a great acting face and I said it was Michael Papa John but it's not Stephen root messing him about it from here he's always got rather thin framed glasses on the radio station going over the mountain actually there's quite a few of these things have changed some of the police work FOR your handsome back very remember these phones Gordan and dodgeball a true underdog story styles %HESITATION no country for old men this is a job being active in everything we can get out all we haven't enough we need to see that and just being a bit of a whimper by cars let me a quiet place and stresses me so much but when we're in the midst of trailers and so hereditary which just promises to be the most terrifying film ever made ever since the new York's assist composer I'm sure get that we can get away with the really rather than a lot of things that she's so close ally H. to what people are talking about issues that concern the country of which none of this is a weak country much but if this is what we can say that and look at the depot and if anybody else ever hear status and hasn't seen Salamat and baseball too it's really worth your time some of them do any sort of assessment of the because your phones well I thought it was really a great thing and I so beautifully additive today reading the scripts but any other thing yeah and and some of the folks who scored just a crane shot at the bridge that focus on the name and the rest Stephen running dying from the letters on the bridge from this is going to be crazy right I can assure I don't know about movement because we're kind of going back and stuff like that what we saw them go four stars out of five or anything like that we do know the last ten to go you should see this film this much you should have this much about going to see this and I think in the case of this I think because it's fun yeah Scorpios may decide that fast enough for people to be on my about page and thanks to some things and they show nothing happened and that should be useful %HESITATION %HESITATION just okay first %HESITATION couple months back shortly after the monthly U. fifteen genius that she didn't make us university have been unveiled a guy who specifically come to visit the university to gaze photo taken with the statute I was American I seventy walking in pasta stature into an entrance into the optional building and he said would you mind taking my photo on this yeah finally getting his phone I just a couple of basic photos portrait and landscape all you have and the first to recognize the statue's face that's the one thing that affected the camera recognize the statue's face because you know how facial recognition technology goes is that mostly focus on a funny face it recognize the face of a statue and not the face of the human the very distinctive famous though and also it's less that she's which he's been delivered even made larger than life because and this is monitoring theory actual life statues we tend to find on K. deserve it layers so little margin life just about prevents it being on campus so this guy did have to put his arm up quite a bit yeah but it's a hundred and okay that's it you're walking through the compass and the eve of the temples and you tell the Senate that he's really there you set the world to rights within the campus there's a statute in my home town which is of a local celebrity and it's actually life size and just as carriers and as we fly off topic okay great exhibition of the north as on of the moment and we can make it work I bought this month by nor supported by greed exhibition I feel like we should be doing stuff today without box open so one interesting I can't really feel compelled to death yeah I poked through the great north museum come on Hancock because we don't give me some simple names anymore last week H. and stave paper %HESITATION for all of the normal exhibits with other exhibits so that you know that you you might look in a cage which school stuff burns in it and it's also got another artifact that's been put in it which is nothing to do with stuff both which is got a little time thank you to all the other plans to mean what it is like that throughout music thing I've learned is and would make some models for kids TV shows my residency including lots of the models used in in the night garden which my kids grow up on and pop thank you a form which we remember fondly scurrying blowing inspecting the same time I was pulled back %HESITATION yeah great personal seems to be a very broad definition of great exhibition and north and I'm sure we'll be discussing yeah like to know how people in Inverness favored by but anyway one other thing yeah it's a little treats its subject that shooting skin tones she can cause substantial frontage sometimes in one film is a logistical knowing that because you have to gauge the particular amount of life to the skin reflects very carefully and gauge the license of the sensitivity of fuel from some more your effective senses on all digital cameras very precisely in order to get the fine gradations of one dog they just across any single person skin ordinarily European skin has been taken as the norm for that which is more effective or flight than skin with more talent and %HESITATION so what I can mean is even phones when you try to represent African American characters any characters recent African origin as being a person may be accidental move of not showing them in the fine details from lights to shelves that you do in the skin of white people but I've given I was totally on top of that yeah she was not for him to any of us forces us a really good point actually this is something she's also tweeted a lot of pain as the research she's done and say photographers and cinematographers who specialize in this kind of work and I will pick some links and show notes saying three point our website at Audi of Asian cultures DOT wordpress dot com nine this on the podcast PH thanks to have three episodes on the PGA onsite PC keep support coming what we do is we gratefully received and if we get even more that means I'll be able to release everything on I change something more accessible for a wider range of people and also at the site and its capital I cast on and updating equipment sharing on social media is also a massive help them you can find us at AZ cultures on Twitter and if you want to get in touch if you want to get involved get a show each on audio visual cultures at G. mail dot com thanks so much and catch the next time
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Audiovisual Cultures 104 – Beyond the Halls with Mackenzie Finklea automated transcript

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This is Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and media join me your host Paula Blair and the researchers, practitioners and enthusiasts I meet along the way see our website at audiovisualcultures.wordpress.com and other links in the show notes for more information for now enjoy the show thank you for cheating and see what do you think she'll cultures the podcast that explores different areas of arts and culture with me your host all up there to date we're returning to a topic of great interest to me but it's one that we haven't visited for a while namely museums  with my special guest today mackenzie  Finkley. mackenzie is the author of beyond the holes an insider's guide to loving museums and mackenzie has a background and that's our policy as well so these are all great topics for us to really get stuck and say after I expanded very warm welcome to you I can say hello %HESITATION hello it's so nice to meet you and talk to you today yes like grace McKenzie hi are you eating are you well today I am doing well today thank you for asking if you hear any %HESITATION low but is that is the fun musical sounds of the cicadas in the trees outside my house it is very hot where I am and I'm very thankful to be inside in the air conditioning okay interesting is it okay to ask where bites your at the moment absolutely I am from Houston Texas in the United States that's pretty exciting Texas is a state I'm very curious about it I'm very curious but holistically emeritus for Sierra taxes since an interesting place I gather but yes very hard at the moment yes it is an interesting place that is an enormous state with all different kinds of cultures and biomes where can I talked quite a bit but museums I hope we're going to properly Nur die to play museums it's a topic I really love we have had some episodes about eighty CM visits and certain museums and that kind of thing but not for read a long time so I'm so grateful that you've brought up this opportunity to talk about next set topic really close to my heart as well I've lived all kinds of museums since childhood and I was wondering what is the debate museums that really draws you in so much that's such a good question what is it about museums that draws me in so much I think for me I am an incredibly visual person and I also love to learn and the museums are beautiful marriage of those two things I love going to museums and getting to see objects of history kind of having the starstruck moments where you're like hello this is a piece of the moon you can actually touch you know things like that and getting to learn then to continue on the moon example there's this really great exhibit where they had all these different scales and you could learn about the difference between mass and gravity with the scales and it would tell you how much she would weigh on different planets who right on the moon versus all the other things instead of getting to see those actual numbers and laugh about them with your friends right like the thousands of pounds you weigh on Jupiter right it's fun interactives and moments like that and shared experiences that are why I love museums so much traffic on Sir do you have a favorite type of museum do you love all the same sekali R. as a techie types of sneezing cyclic like some specialized museums I have a special place in my heart for natural history museums those are probably my favorite type I do love all types I love visiting all types %HESITATION more recently I found a new found love for art museums and contemporary art so my favorites and my current loves are always changing but there is a special place in my heart for natural history is not to to U. S. life on this planet and learning more about that more but she made history what is it exactly by natural history that really get to see much it's exactly that it's all of the above what gets me is trying to answer these really big picture questions of who are we where do we come from how does the world work in all its facets you know how to animals live breathe eat reproduce what's the water cycle what's volcanoes and natural disasters and all of these really big wow factor things that are very much real parts of our life that we for centuries are seeking to understand and always always there is something new to learn and there's always a new fossel it's been discovered that teaches us something different about evolution of some species whether or not it's us or %HESITATION turtles or dolphins or you know the list goes on and on that's why I love them there's always something new to learn and it answers really big picture questions and concepts yeah I'm a big fan of sat T. I. E. when I was a kid I probably still stay from feminist I I have a burning desire to be a paleontologist's dinosaurs are must love of I think yes to anything pre historic is mind blowing to me and hi that sets and tell us today is ridiculous to learn of plates have you had the opportunity to visit lots of difference natural history museums and lots of different locations I wondered what you think of the sock comparative experience yes I have had the luxury of visiting other natural history museums in other locations and I will tell you that one of my ultimate favorites and it's gonna be a funny answer because it's not like the biggest or the most impressive but one of my favorites is the natural history museum on the university of Oxford campus okay what I really love about that museum is just the architecture the %HESITATION this is gonna be such a Gen Z. thing to say but the vibes but also there are these really cool parts of the museum where there are all of these columns made out of all the different types of stone that are native to the British Isles and that is such like an incredible learning moment because not only are you showing like you know the strength of stone how it can be used but in context with actually where the museum is and that makes that particular museum unique because so many natural history museums cover all the exact same topics or they try to have the exact same replicas of famous bottles but not all of them have the fossils right because only one museum can have it in the one copy but I thought that one was particularly compelling that in a very just generally enjoyable experience for me %HESITATION that's ridiculous here I haven't even been to Oxford so he's got me on that one that you sang that does remind me there is a really nice natural history museum in Manchester university so just a bit north of socks and it's talks right end of the campus so easy you really have to know what's in there and I love the small ones like that we can collect the chore syndicate all the samples and it'll different rock samples and stuff it's a really nice example tonight where anybody does something unique because as you say there's a pretty big ones you know opens today natural history museum of London that's when you have to go see if you're there and absolutely yeah it's huge and it's almost overwhelming there's so much stuff I am also an example of Zeus smaller rooms as well I think that's really important to remember are these the kinds of things you go into the and your back beyond the wholesome mean what was it that really motivated GT go right I love museums not enough other people love museums I need this project this problem what was it about all the stuff that goes to the right topic it was exactly all of what you're describing so when I was doing my studies in anthropology towards the end of my undergraduate degree I realized that my interests primarily lie in displays of human culture and I was getting %HESITATION professional museum studies certificate and I was visiting at least one U. CM a week many times more than one and I was doing all of this writing and learning all these things and having these great experiences and I wanted to share that with other people I wanted other people to enjoy museums and learn these valuable things that I was learning at my studies in a very specific kind of program but I wanted it to be accessible %HESITATION and help people you know love museums more sense it's important and we can of course get into that later if you like but ultimately what I wanted to write was something that was it accessible as I believe museums should be accessible to everyone so why would I want this book to be any different right I wanted something that wasn't a boring tech X. book like truthfully many of the books I had to read for class and I wanted something that wasn't just a very specific guide to a specific kind of museum or place or period I wanted it to be a general exploration of museums especially for people who don't visit or think they're not important or just want to understand them better so that's ultimately what I produced was a guide to loving museums that covers a ton of different areas green I wonder is well it might what do people see as barriers T. access as you say because I know my experience in the U. K. it's may be seen as a for a middle class things today is going to museums even if most of them are free to go and say it's just something that other people daily where is my background is probably a bit unique in that I am my grandfather was a security guard and %HESITATION living history museum so I spent a lot of my summers just running a fight these fields and this living history museum so it was a fluke and transports me Sam so I was physically learning about the history of my please so it was the Ulster folk and transport museum in Northern Ireland they would have said actual colleges that people really live stand would have been taken apart very carefully rebuilt some sites and sometimes they would have investigators are demonstrators the last time I was there and this was just a few years ago they had somebody using the latency no somebody actually waving the way they would have a couple of hundred years ago you know and telling us if I didn't mean it is just such a fascinating experience like you're saying that's when you can actually see it and it comes alive free it's much more meaningful so it's something I think about quite a bit is how do we get more people to realize this is for years while you know it's fake questions %HESITATION just to try and drill into that a bit more we want to purchase G. Shanker are helpful and trying to achieve not that's a good one I think it's a lot of what you just said %HESITATION making museums accessible and in many ways entertaining and the entertainment value can either be in your face or more nuanced and here's kind of what I mean by that is within your face entertainment you're gonna have really interactive museums opportunities to ride on train cars you know through nineteen twenty Chicago right or actually touching a moon rock to use an earlier example but then the other more nuanced ways in which %HESITATION museums can provide entertainment value is through fun games or educational curriculum that museum educators provide and museum educator is like a specific position at a museum but I'm sure you're familiar with and those are typically the people that lead school tours or field trips and they will come up with a whole set of really interesting games for ways to interact with things as simple as a painting on a wall to really provide context learning opportunity and that's something that's actually fun and memorable so that's another thing that I really wanted people to have access to was games that they could play on their own in art museums and help them realize it's not as boring as you might think it is at face value yeah is this just to push a bit further without points on interactivity I'm a big fan of tears I really like a museum terror and to see absolutely yes three the ISIS somebody you because it's usually a volunteer it's not even always a member of staff at somebody who has such passion or maybe they're retired historian or something and they have such a passion that they want to lead people three and for you to see it through their eyes I think the last time I managed to date that was an Attenborough I think it's the national museum of Scotland it was thought it was a retired historian and he was just so lovely and so knowledgeable oil and just really passionate you get a nice good people and you're walking around together and %HESITATION I mean this was in December of twenty nineteen so this was before things were really naming properly it was a real joy because I think it's a Saturday or you can get really overwhelmed if it's a very fake museum with lots of different sections and it's trying to cover all the bases and to just see it three right we're just gonna get the specific things in there you're going to see a narrative unfolds got something it's really getting to me what do you think it bites hers and that sort of thing because you can also get order you terse order ops and things like that they'll take you on a tour of mean do you have much experience aside or what are your thoughts on those sorts of activities absolutely in my personal opinion is that I love in person to worse more than anything because audio tours are great they are accessible you can use them at any time you can access them from home in some cases personally I'm less inclined to listen to an area ambiguous robot voice as I'm walking through a museum way more inclined to exactly what you were saying watch a person get really animated and passionate about the things that they're talking about hearing from their expected natural off the cuff storytelling and not as scripted recordings I do really enjoy museum tours especially in the before times you know when I would travel to go see a museum I would make an effort to try to book a museum tour because that's also if you have a limited amount of time in a city or a place they will show you the highlights they will show you the most compelling pieces or artifacts that the museum highlights and then tell you from their perspective it gives you really great insight into the culture of that place as well getting to experience it through the eyes of the person who lived it was online math it's it's not something you a field of in the past couple of years because we've had last access I don't know what your pandemic experience in Spain but I have to museums near ye been accessible through online means I mean there's all sorts of implications are with from dying and he's able to provide that of course then again we've been able to access places in the world we may not have been able to before because we can travel there so I was wondering hi his your access to museums bane and the past couple of years hasn't changed a lot I will say so my book was published in December of twenty nineteen so slightly in the before times right I do talk a great deal about the digitization of museums and how a lot of museums even before Kobe we're starting to put a lot of their collections online to be more accessible to people which is an absolutely great thing and speaks volumes about the rapid acceleration and development of the internet and digital access in general then during a global pandemic that rapid acceleration towards digitisation such a hardware display is more important now than ever because many museums especially in the beginning when everything especially museums had to shut down entirely a lot of museums didn't bounce back from that number had to permanently close some are on the brink of having to permanently close and so being able to provide visitors with ways to engage and support the museum from the comfort of their home has played an increasingly important role not only in accessibility for learning opportunities but also in supporting the museum's business model and keeping it open and continuing to be able to preserve cultural history so locally to answer your question yes the museum's near me have done a really great job of providing virtual events especially in the in the thick of it as we were starting to get better %HESITATION but a couple months ago they were doing a really great job of providing outdoor events things where people could come together distanced but still have these great learning opportunities or a lot of museums near me and across the country have implemented the concept of time demands so that way you come at a certain time and there's not too many people in the museum it runs to the course to prevent the spread of disease a lot of that has changed in the past couple weeks even but yeah hopefully that answers your question it's a lot to think about it I think and as you say the implications of that acceleration of moving everything online we're in very intense times it feels there were times especially for early on when we didn't really know what this was he asks you know a year and a half ago I felt a bit overwhelmed just thinking oh this is going online %HESITATION that's going online %HESITATION I can view got exhibition online I'm sitting but I need to get some work son I can't just sit and let me see here yeah the three sixty degrees online all day and ended up forgetting about it most of it so I think in a way personally I fax est museums and galleries probably a lot less than I would have done if I had of been able to just go right I'm just gonna transfer it to him to school and have a look round an exhibition or something and I don't know hi David title but I wonder if other people are taught that similar experience where people have access to more because before they didn't have the time and then they're on furlough and the dates and all sorts of things I think people who study this sort of thing in a formal way are going to have some work cut out for them to go through hell with him would you like to receive updates links and special offers straight to your inbox and visit audio visual cultures tower presto com to sign up to our mailing list something I eat thank you bye a lot as well as potential problems as PCM speeches we were talking earlier but some of the bigger older ones and especially here in the U. K. risks auctions last colonial history and places like the British Museum matches in upstate global and situation and many ways because there's nothing actually British and they have very little and he everything's covered from everywhere else and I was wondering if you ever come across people challenging yet but that sort of thing because I feel like it's something we need to address that we need to confront said we need to just say yep that's our history and that's not but why do you feel the bite those sorts of issues if they arise and how you might deal with challenges to pot I do really enjoy this topic I like talking about the British Museum because truthfully I have a love hate relationship with that because the very first time I got to visit the British Museum was in the summer of twenty eighteen so I had not yet finished my degree I was the summer before my senior year %HESITATION budding anthropologist just like jumping in my seat waiting in line to get into the British Museum because it is you're absolutely right this global institution where you can see thousands of years of human culture across the world in one place started walking through and seeing all of the things and wondering where they came from and how they came to be into that institution and learning more about the ways in which those objects were acquired and then some of the contentions regarding the fact that a lot of those objects have been requested to be formally returned and subsequently denied so the more I learned the more that the magic was kind of stripped away from me so it's been really wonderful institution I absolutely believe that something like that should exist but at the same time yeah you have really big ethical questions that need to be answered and yes people do challenge me on this topic they will often say well especially in the case of the British Museum if they started giving things back they have to give everything back and then they have nothing left which is such an exaggeration and far from the truth but I think that certainly concessions you need to be made I think it's an important topic to philistine and I think we just need to be honest I've heard our colonial power in this country I think the sooner we are in the center we don't yet our ancestors to thought and it's not pretty intense violence on that's horrible scenery might maybe move on as a society yeah we need to find that balance is holding things in posterity and learning from not passed but also not just forgetting and sang all everything's fine and whitewashing it you know quite naturally it's good to know I used to say look I thought sort of thing I think it is an experience when I first I think it was two thousand and nine when I first went to the British Museum and I had thought I was going around going oh everything's from everywhere else and how did they get yeah I had a very similar awakening to it and then just gradually find out more and more but that's not to say that people shouldn't go because it's a really yeah one situation like so many of them that's another pretty basic example and I do have a great love of small museums curiosity type museums ready specific things whether it's seen them myself for where I've seen them on the TV program and they're all ministers places to visit remember being in Barcelona one time and there is a chocolate museum and I was just solely sculptures made out of chocolate I never intended to find somewhere I wasn't looking for that I didn't know I needed thought my life but I went and I had a choice tied as under if you had examples of things again that were smaller and worker came because we talked the natural history examples earlier but at any other came to three specific things that you really love him much like to highlight there are hundreds of small and quirky museums and the first one that comes to mind it's so embarrassing but it's hilarious there is a toilet seat museum oh really in Texas is kind of off the beaten path and it's not about the history of toilet seats or anything more than anything it's a public art display so he has this essentially a garage at this random man's property %HESITATION where he has floor to ceiling toilet seats that people have decorated signs and just completely imprinted their personality on too and I think that there is just so much to think about in terms of what that says about American culture individualism consumerism like you really could get into the weeds with that but also at the surface it's this really fun and quirky like toilet seats you know I think that's a fun example in haven't friend he's an artist and her her work is ready the weird things that she collects and she's done residency site in Virginia you're ready small tines in Virginia and she's done artworks based on right this time has this particular Moscow and sushi's meet at an art exhibition slash museum items things to do with this hot dog mascot you know it's really super specific really off the beaten track I really love things like that really quite blur the fine J. between what's an art exhibition the museum collection yeah you know something that really muddy suse waters I'm quite and spots I'm quite interested and intrigued by things that aren't necessarily museums but the jury yen and then you think actually this is quite like a museum you probably have places like this in the United States as well I don't know if you're aware of the National Trust for example or English heritage you put me on their buildings to places that they look after they become museum of fights I suppose that since and I was wondering what you thought of as well is that a tear of the CMS occasion another awkward first yeah that process of museum of finding an old place or anything like that is that something you've encountered very much sure what do you think that I would send the National Trust in the United Kingdom is definitely more prevalent than the national trust's awareness in the United States so similar concept the National Trust here seeks to preserve places of architectural significance but the National Trust in England is of a different breed I say England because that's the specific region I've been exposed to the most the National Trust and the United Kingdom is a different rate because it's become something more of almost like a passport you have all of these places where you see the little logo and you can almost fill them out and take them off and go and visit them it's also significantly smaller country to explore but %HESITATION yeah I'm getting to go to see places in Dover %HESITATION you'd see the little logo going to the Stonehenge I believe is also included in the National Trust the national trust's in England definitely and the United Kingdom was certainly more obvious to me that and the existence of a national trust in the United States and museum of occasion there are a lot of places and I include them in the book is that don't necessarily feel like museums but in many ways aren't because museums are preservation's of human culture and if we look at it that way lots of things can be used yeah libraries kind of falls under that category historical holds certainly fall under that category and so the museum of the cation of something if we want to think about that word is probably including a gift shop including educational materials to explain the context of the architecture of a place or its contents ticketing and branding and all these things so it's almost like could be institutionalizing of something that makes it a formal museum and there are always those questions over things what gets to be preserved what is deemed worthy enough to be captain posterity he makes those decisions he gets the side when he gets what money to make those decisions so it unfolds and unfolds all the time that's quite a complex issue I think is quite recently at the National Trust property call Tom Brady hall in Worcestershire and it was only saved because it has the specific wall paintings they're actually part of the walls these murals are painted and sites by a specific artist they need to pick specific sayings it's these Greek myths same spot the faces of men swapped out for political figures of the time as just a splash of this is how wealthy we are this is where our political leanings site you're welcome in this ice if you're happy to discuss those things and it was one of those where debate because he says they were falling you know in the nineteen forties and fifties and the families just can't afford to keep them on anymore and that a labour government demanded the risk very high taxes and this was one of hundreds of calls see if only because of these paintings so we've lost so many other super similar but this one's there because of the spending you know so it's still that's sort of questions what gets to see if a place is quite interesting it is very interesting to think about the value of things right if you can come down and think about things of historical significance that may be easy to choose like I was reading this morning about and our archaeological discovery and almost fully intact tent made out of all the parts of a mammoth and its claim to fame is that it's one of the most early examples of architecture mmhm like how incredible is it to be able to say that you have that in your museum so you can say that the thing that you have is the first or an early example up or something incredibly unique that's often unique and rarity ultimately is what makes things very important museums happens like what's worthy of being on display is often a matter of what they have access to sometimes museums can be dumping grounds for donations of people I had a really interesting conversation and interviews part of my book with an exhibition director at the Houston museum of natural science we're standing in the great hall and emotions around and he goes out everything is trash everything in this museum is trash and I was like come again everything is strange because he was saying you know at some point or another it was something that someone didn't want anymore because if they really wanted it you know they would hold on to it for it and want to have it for themselves so either they didn't want it or they passed away and there are errors didn't want it anymore and gifted it to the museum so that's another interesting way that things end up in museums and then because they're in a museum there's this inherent perception of value because it's institutionalized right so a very interesting conversation nine I hadn't heard of that way of thinking about it before bed makes total sense I have managed to see behind the scenes a little bit one time enemy see and when I was doing my PhD research the curator of the Ulster museum in Belfast ways show me some things because I was using something from their permanent collection notice %HESITATION yeah I just needed to watch and study it yeah she's great she gave me this very quick sure and the stage spaces of the museum and there's just all these great art works and sculptures sins you artifacts and drawers and drawers and shelves and shelves for the boxes and everything and she said everything here is virtually of display everything here could be I tired sometimes we circulate stuff but people have their favorite Sir things right there that people just come here specifically to saying they want to see their Spanish Armada clean say want to see a bit already beaten up cost of a T. rex skills well we've got actual dinosaur fossils here but they're just these tiny fragments of things people find on a peach but the real threats of actually awhile fossilized bits of voxel dinosaur it's the iceberg this thing is suppose of what we see in a museum is just the one tense you know the nine ten Sunder is everything inside the box and we don't get to see absolutely would you or someone you know make a great cast an audio visual cultures then email audio visual culture shock dot com to have a conversation they can see Sir anything else told that you really like to chat about it today I feel like I've thrown a lot of questions out but if there's anything you told that you think it's really important that you have a just a message right there for people anything is holy crap the youth like to say yeah one thing I'd like to come back to that I briefly alluded to early on in our conversation and the importance of museums are why they matter why should we bother why should we visit them from what we discussed museums are places where cultural heritage is preserved and if we are not supporting those institutions visiting them what happens to all of those things do they continue to be preserved not even just professionally but just at all we are what we lose when we lose history you know there's all of these doom and gloom concepts of like %HESITATION we're doomed to repeat it but what I'm thinking of is just the learning opportunities the immersive exhibits the moments that things come alive really in your mind not only are they great spaces a community but ultimately preservation of human culture so I want to encourage people to visit support experience with your loved ones museums in all their glory that's great pretty good message and important message I can see where can we find out more at the union about your back you can read more about me and the book at mackenzie frankly dot com pretty easy to remember you can find the book on the ever ubiquitous Amazon dot com you can also find my book on bookshop dot org which I encourage people to support as well to support independent bookstores across the world accents my interest not sentiments as well both mackenzie frankly it's been such a joy speaking with you today you're very welcome back anytime if you ever wanna talk about a specific saying %HESITATION that you're working on or if you have a new project coming I it's you know just give us a show you're welcome back anytime and it's been pretty tough each day mazing thank you so much it's been such a joy talking to you and I look forward to more checks in the future