Audiovisual Cultures 119 – Maysville

Listen and view the show notes and full automated transcript below!

Show Notes

Paula Blair speaks to writer and director Leslie Goyette and producer Michele Englehart about their film Maysville (2021). In our conversation you’ll learn about their 3-year journey from script to finished film, their experience with crowdfunding and the kindness of communities, and the sheer tenacity it takes to achieve a goal you really believe in. This is an enjoyable and illuminating conversation which I hope you’ll get something out of and share.

Music: commonGround by airtone (c) copyright 2018 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Noncommercial (3.0) license.

Edited by Paula Blair with Audacity.

Recorded with Zoom on 4 May 2022. Access Behind the Scenes recordings on Patreon.

Maysville website:

Leslie and Paula connected via

Automated Transcript

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though you’re very welcome to you RT of facial cultures the podcast that explores different areas of film the arts and media I’m Paul up there and in this episode I talk to the writer and director let’s see cognacs and producer Michelle Engelhard’s abate their film maze filled which is available on various streaming sites as well as on DVD and Blu ray and the U. S. you’ll find useful links in the show notes and everything else you’ll need audio visual cultures dot com a big thank you to our patrons at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures his generosity is funding our websites and thanks as well to you heather pony read he replied on Instagram and I posted about yes more computer bows as it seems we have the same laptop and heather says I recently discovered your podcast and it’s great I’m really glad you’re enjoying it has their hands thank you and everyone else for investing in for engaging with us wherever you do that so in today’s discussion we skirted around Paul details for the film may you spell but I think that it’s fine for me to say that it is a tragic family ands coming of age periods drama set in depression era of the ship if you’re not aware of it it’s a real might necessary it in the United States Leslie and Michelle take history quite a lot of the production details including importantly their experience with crowdfunding and simply asking for things that you told people what they needed and they made a film that looks a lot more expensive than a speaker because of the kindness of the community stay were working with and I think that’s really pertinent for me because I was living in Newcastle upon Tyne has taught me shy bairns get nights you know if you don’t ask you don’t get let’s see Michelle really show you why it’s important to just go for it to just tell people like this is what we needs today that S. what do you think what can you do with a mention some difficult topics around death poverty and abusive behavior but there’s also a lot of joy and hope the restore some faith in humanity and both the story of may spell on the Siri if making maze spell they may face so it really hope you enjoy this one it was it was just a really great conversation and it was a real joy to meet lastly and Michelle as well they’re they’re welcome back anytime so hope you get a lottery if it nine I know I certainly did let’s see go yes and Michelle Banco hearts thank you so much for joining me on audio visual cultures we’re going to discuss your independent film maze spell that’s just so exciting but this first of all if it’s okay could I ask each of you C. NG sure selves to bet on C. six billion the roles each if you had in the film if we start with Leslie is out all right now I’m amazed to Michelle my name’s Leslie yeah I was the writer and one of the producers and the director for the town I am amazing partner Michelle yes my name is Michelle it’ll hurt I am %HESITATION producer and maze spell Celeste Lee and I teamed up to get the film made I know that getting the film made a toll was a huge achievement for both fifty and so we’ll try and learn a bit of bite that at any moment spent where did the story come from and why did you decide to tell it on film will talk but the story itself in a bad spot %HESITATION I just wondered what were the origins of the story first of all well the origins of the story it’s a coming of age story set in the nineteen twenties and that part of the United States called Appalachia Appalachia is a remote part of the United States it’s a very mountainous area it’s part of where I grew up so that part of the country it’s that poverty stricken area and I kind of wanted to tell a story about things that I had seen and things that I had witnessed and growing up in that area but I also want to take it back in time a little bit some of the characters are kinda loosely very loosely based on people that I had interacted with throughout my life heady and Willie that G. main characters early on in the film are are based on my sister and my relationship the closeness that we add the adventures that they have together things like that those are all things that I did as a child with my sister it’s not by any means autobiographical goodness it’s not autobiographical it’s based on you know the area where I grew up with and that’s where it came to me and why is hold on film was it the second part your question in Leslie can answer this better than me but I just want to say is a writer Leslie is a very visual writer when I first read the script I could picture every scene my mind like how it was going to beat it and she’s not a prolific writer is very you know not a lot of information but if the right amount of information for me to visualize really picture how how this would be films which I thought was unusual to do read a lot of scripts I think she’s a visual writer which lends itself to film and Sam and then it’s out what really attracted you to producing it that Michelle was just she wanted to visualize sought for Leslie well it will tell you the back story the city especially night we knew each other do we to have met on the set that are %HESITATION kids had done a commercial for probably eight years ago now while ago and kept in touch via social media Facebook she lives in Portland which is about three hours from where I’m at in Seattle so just you know queen says over social media but one day she came to me and asked if I’d be she had watched a short film that I had put out on social media that my son had been in and she watched it and thought he would be perfect for the role of Willie for this script she wrote I didn’t know she was a writer and she had never previously shown anybody her scripts so she’s kind of like a closet raiders just she sent me the scripts and I started reading it and I’m not sure if you had time to watch the film but the set up of the film is with the boys you know their tweens the first fifteen minutes of the film you watch the set up and I read up to that point in the script and I was just like oh my god this is one of the best scripts I’ve read and I could just my heart I was totally engaged by page ten you know just sucked in and by like sixteen or something I text her I said oh my god is she said oh my god good %HESITATION oh my god dad because I was the first person to read the script and I said oh my god I just called her and I said this is so good this is just so good so that’s how I got selected I didn’t know maybe at that time that was her first script I didn’t know anything you know if she’s made any short films or anything she came up to Seattle we did a table read and then after the table read she said so I don’t know if this can just be a short film if we could do a feature length film but you know what you ladies we can get it done could you help me I’ve never done so before so I don’t know I I tell people I don’t usually believe in fate but there was I feel like there’s an element here why this all came together why I said yes I thought it was just crazy I’m more conservative than Leslie and you know don’t usually take risks like this and I just was a great time in my life and we kind of just figured it out together over the last three and half years it’s been kind of a crazy ride we’ve learned a ton a ton and I think we produce something pretty good for you know given what we %HESITATION the resources that we had a play into second let’s see do you want to add anything to Michelle stories there well yeah I think that I I I call myself a closet writer for many years I have so many scripts and short stories and so on and that I write but I’ve always felt that sharing your writing is like letting someone see ill make it you know nobody you just don’t want to do that and because it shows all your flaws it shows you know your inhibitions it shows everything in your writing and people can’t really judge you on your writing style even though I love to write I’ve never really shared by writing with anyone so it was a big step a big step for me to say Hey I’m going to share something with you and it was easier to share it with someone that I didn’t know really well then it was share share with someone who I intimately know or care a lot about because Michelle could have been honest with me does that make sense I’m Michelle had no nothing best and she could have hurt my feelings that thank you I think it’s a something for us right now but her response was authentic and genuine and she was very enthusiastic about the script and made me feel somewhat validated I guess all writers maybe need some kind of validation before they take the next step at least for me at it that’s a really important story to tell I think because there’s probably a lot of people like they’re like you you hear setting on work and they’re too scared to share it with anyone and that’s a really great story of where it can actually work I’d if you take that leap into the abyss so that’s really great for people to hear I hope hope hope you know art is the most important thing to me art most important thing in the world because it it brings joy right whatever form of art there is it brings joy and it sometimes being on her way to share your arch keeps people from sharing it you know and it may really resonate with someone hi tended to did you go from the the ID in the script Sakshi getting it into production because I know that you you went to in the crowd funding rates I’m sure there’s a big story behind that as well I think one of the smart moves we made as we carved out six months to see how much money we could race to see whether we could take on a feature length film funding wise or whether we just might have enough money to do what we feel would be to put forward a short film I think a lot of filmmakers at least one a lot of local indie filmmakers I know they don’t necessarily take that time may kind of wing it and try to do stuff and no money and I do think we did the right thing by taking that time and doing it and it it didn’t just raise the funds it helps spur our marketing right from the very beginning to start building your audience early is that some advice we got from another producer that I think is was well taken so you can the two can go hand in hand we did a big what we thought was a big crowd funding and indie gogo which was quite successful we more than made our goal and that inspired us to think that we had enough to meet your future phone which we actually end up doing we had to do a lot of asking because we didn’t have enough money to make a really good quality feature of the film is set back in the nineteen twenties so that’s another feat that’s quite hard to pull off as an indie filmmaker to make it at that tech looking to the nineteen twenties and more expensive right all the props and Senate locations and all that so in addition to %HESITATION you know raising the money we had to do a lot of asking of Hey can you volunteer to let us use your vintage car yeah we asked the town’s we found two historic towns next to each other for filming you know we had to ask you know their city council if we can use their public spaces they gave it to us for free just about all the locations were given to us for free to use the props antiques and even an old tractors the perfect old tractor we’re looking for the actually look new we found a steam train there’s a local steam train that actually still operates down there and we needed one for the film they gave us the use of that for free yeah I mean it was just almost ridiculous how much was just given to us just because we asked so the combination of raising what we thought was enough money in conjunction with just getting out there and asking people people are excited said make a film this was in two towns that are pretty not remote but there is not a lot going on down there and them and they are historic and I think that a lot of people in those towns that was really cool that it a film set back in the twenties is going to be made in their towns there’s a lot of get up and go a lot of good will down there that we found it we also did at dinner fundraiser down there to raise money that was the initial reason but it actually did a lot more than that it got that good will get the word out in the excitement out a lot of the Ted that people down there became extras in the film they’re really excited about that and some of them brought their own wardrobes and just got really into it even the fire chief the ad at the fire station helped us we didn’t have sixteen hundred dollars to rent a rain machine so he he brought fire track and hooked up the hose and we got one K. we got one shot on this one J. and he just prayed the hose in the air and got the rain to come down on the actors and their work we were so excited we had shot the scene twice already with no rain right well doesn’t work we’ll have our back up right yes so and and it was amazing just to see the community come together to try to make this project because when we were at the dinner we just had a captive audience we ask people were like this is what we need this is what we need this is what we need is what we need and by the time we were done with that dinner we had two people volunteer their farms to be burnt down and we were just kind of you know right away what we need to burn down the barn does anyone ever bark we can burn down yes you well in two years yeah we’re just jokingly asking to %HESITATION thing that we learned in all of this is that at the end of the day people want to help people thank you it’s just a lot of times people don’t want to ask for help the R. model began eighteen it became that power up the ass be authentic in your ask be truthful be honest let them know this is where I’m coming from I don’t have a budget where I can you know give you money the people were just %HESITATION one all and excited to be you know a part of it it’d be part of something creative that’s bigger than yourself I think that I would sign on if somebody asked me you know it anyway it’s it’s exciting to be part of something that so many people are involved in to actually put something on the big screen that could look really good they didn’t know asked they didn’t know we had no stars in the film you know no A. listers that are recognizable and murky but they totally bought into the story and the idea of making a film down there and the fact it was sent back in time I think it was a another big selling point can also tune into six story and I just feel like there’s a whole other side of this film as well it’s going to really beautiful story that can circulate with so I think that to get into more details but the film itself you know as indicated very clearly by the title the location is so important and as you’re saying it’s that community and I it’s great to hear such a positive story right the making of the film because I think the film itself deals is really very difficult and she’s and not so much of a community spirit going on if I’m picking up on that right so I was just wondering if you kids help flashlight a bit more for any listeners especially here in the U. K. you know we’re we’re fed a lot of sculpture from the U. S. but the specific location and after that time that you’re talking about most of us are going to know absolutely nothing about that so if it’s okay could you just help flesh out a bit more forests to depression era I it’s very rural very might necessary yet and then the sorts of issues that you’re dealing with that because you know there’s going to be a lot bubbling up Ryan’s not as well in terms of because I think the suffrage movement but is going on and and there’s a lot of racial problems and then there’s classic she’s while you’ve mentioned so if you’re happy to maybe less EKG just last Saturday but Marcus what’s your story as well you want to tell well if we’re gonna talk about Appalachia I do need to make sure that I preface that these are my people this is where I grew up and I love the end of your where I’m from so by any means I’m the purpose of this is not to shine a negative light on the people of Appalachia but Appalachian in the nineteen twenty eight is very different %HESITATION Appalachian ballad eight we’re up we’re going back in time and we’re looking at a time when I don’t think things were so different so much in Appalachia as they were in other parts of the country women were more of a second class citizen then man even in the early nineteen twenties when men that were just started a little bit more we were dealing with I don’t want to give away too much of the story is there is a very big twist at the end and the big twist at the end actually we’ll explain the actions by a lot of the characters throughout infidelity is one of the most memorable thing that you could have done in that time in Appalachia it’s something that that was our letter you know what I’m saying very much about starlet letter that area it fell yeah like I said it’s under Sir but there’s not a lot of well generations after generations after generations lived there but not a lot of people a lot of families can’t break out of poverty cycle but at the same time they’re also a very strong eight they’re very strong in their faith and their beliefs so trying to explain that without giving like much of a story and it’s a little little bit than a fine line to walk there but it’s a very beautiful part of the country the Appalachian trail a lot of people will hike that it is just the mountains trail %HESITATION on the eastern part of the United States it’s beautiful and the people are wonderful they’re just very set in their ways and sometimes people will justify their actions by what has happened yeah and I hate to use the %HESITATION terms but I four nine if you hear a lot of times people still feel that way and back in that time the nineteen twenties there was not on law enforcement as you see it now right there was one local sheriff for like three or four to L. and that was the case that the story up there we had one share I never hear of many different things like that so I hope that can help an indescribable Billboard it Leslie you know the extension that some of this a lot of it is pulled from her her childhood here in there which Leslie and I are about the same age so grew up in the seventies it’s set back in the nineteen twenties because maybe it’s a little bit more believable so that some of this these things actually can happen they still actually Leslie maybe you could talk to this can happen today that some of the things that happen in the movie like that could never happen Welton Leslie might know about the situations in her childhood where things like that actually did happen yeah I grew up with this and we were court reporter growing up we didn’t have a car I don’t think anyone would ever relate to that you know what I’m saying the seventies eighties and nineties growing up how did you not have a car but we don’t have a car I would have a telephone that sounds great to you and when I was in high school we did not have a telephone we couldn’t afford it and having that you know even though some of the things that you see you know was in the seventies eighties and nineties I took it back to the twenties because I just don’t think that if I told the story of the seventies eighties and nineties well not as we’re not believed that people would not believe that how does a family not have excel how do you not have a land line in your house we didn’t read it I had a single mother with trying to raise three children of our own and it was just their circumstances that we grew up in so we decided I decided to take this story back to the twenties to make some updates you know that I can relate you’re from my child care it would explain things a lot easier that’s really great to hear about that less because I was something I was gonna ask you bite cassette the setting is almost a hundred years on from where we are today I think that actually quite a few of the issues that come up in the film are really Prashant right now all right I think especially with a lot of what we said with their abusive behavior and race relations and gender and equality and everything he can and well into the twenty first century noise so I think it is a very twenty twenty story and a lot of ways as much as as a nineteen twenty sorry so it it’s really great to hear I’m really fascinating what you’re saying is well the plight that decision to go back to the Chinese that makes a lot of sense actually because I grew up more in the eighties and the U. K. and yet we do even for a lot of a CVP considers horror underprivileged but we probably would have had access T. a landline telephone or a cover of some description at even a neighbor’s car or something like that so you know that’s really just fastening contacts here but I thought thank you both for that yeah yeah you just hit the nail on the head you’re really did you’re really something that up very well it’s just interesting you know even when I was telling myself some of the stories from my childhood shows like what at the same time and regionally we were just a few hundred miles from each other she was growing up in Illinois and I was growing up in Kentucky but we grew up in two very different worlds very very different worlds and it’s just fascinating just to see that how to people who are completely different not far from each other but just experienced two drastically different either you mentioned earlier as well that the two boys teddy and waylaid the beast very roughly on you and your sister and then putting it back to the twenties and changing them to police as Scott Disick in to facilitate the storytelling do you think it’s easier for employees or it’s easier for me because there were some parts that I did want to share about my life okay I just felt that it was the right thing to do was to make them boys some of the things that make my sister and I did work very well wait role you know what we would find in the Barnes and Klein you know fifty feet in the rockers I would die now if I saw my kids doing things like that you know we we go frog gigging and you know we would ship times we shot guns and in the field not a lot of things that you see Freddy and really doing there definitely more masculine things but those are the things that we had it that’s what we had to play with when you’re married remember from people so that’s just what we had to delete things that were around that’s what we have to play with and that’s what we yet there is a lot of times when I was very emotional on set you know I just think that it it would have been two little girls I would’ve been a total basket okay I’m still close with my sister and I love her so much but I think having a boy it’s the kind of things a little are a little bit more controllable yeah that makes a lot of census three users here I mean we talked earlier as well right just hi positives it production experience was and it does look like he hello maybe we can consider a lot of the actors as terribly famous or anything like that they’re actually really high caliber it and the performances set you’ve got out of them and she’s got really high production values and hi the film has been found the lighting music and and all of these elements that make it looks very polished and they make it look a lot more expensive than I probably actually will which is one of the men thank you all right coming from you that really means a lot someone has so much education and someone who has spent so much time studying found that’s really sweet of you to say that means that means a lot but we you know we were limited with our actors we were limited with what we had to change from what we have to work with but I do agree with you I do think that we got some really really genuine performances and %HESITATION I think that it came through and they were more than just characters they really worked really hard to get to where they needed to be instrumental scenes for heart things were very hard but I think they roast beef thank you all we wanted to make a family I talked to Michelle about this I did not want to tell this story how a modern day director would tell story stories nowadays are very different R. told very different and how old they are we’re told when I was when my children watch that comes from my childhood and I’m like oh this is scanned by me you’re gonna love it rob Reiner’s great blah blah blah this is Ron Howard and this is Joe Dante when I share with them they think I’ll use work %HESITATION really %HESITATION and they’re very much a narrative belt right whereas a more modern day wait you’re a lot of our modern day story starts with inner dialogue the characters we must the reaction that we eat your entry the audience you’re trying to see what is going through the mind of the characters and it’s not so bad body yet so Michelle and I were we want to tell in old fashioned story not very old fashioned but I wanted to tell it the way that we grew up watching and that was the intent that so with the listen to the score the score is very much something you would have heard and the eighties and nineties someone brought up out of Africa it has we’re going out of Africa or something like that and it’s more of an epic sound to it then something that it’s a little bit more modern and that was the look and the feel that we were going for day one with our cinematographer antara composer the film is getting really positive reviews wherever people are watching it so catchy point the search to words where they can find it and any information that as well like they’re they complained about it he Michelle would you like to yeah so it’s on Amazon and designed to be TV and it’s on Google play and YouTube it’s also being taken to the console market coming up so we’re excited to see if it hopefully can go somewhere yeah that Avenue and yeah we’re on Facebook based on the movie and Facebook is probably the best place to go to social media to find out the latest %HESITATION what’s going on there filming the reviews we post in there all the press everything is on and our Facebook page did I miss anything less like so interesting hi there if you have anything you you really want to hot up in the film because we’ve been tiptoeing around the story because we don’t want to give too much away but is there anything else you wanna add about your experience in making acts and the people that you worked with anything at all well I think we kind of already said it but just to reiterate that craziness of how I mean you mentioned the production quality value the film and that the good acting all round I think we really made a really solid looking film that’s the feedback we get that looks studio quality if you know more about our budget was less than six figure six you know you have to you know we say for the price of a new car we made this film over the course of three years and I I am biased but I think it looks and feels and watches it’s just it’s amazing for what we specs and I think you know we’re first time filmmakers never even made a short film before and we did this and pulled it off and so I think that’s that’s the story behind the story be back in just in general that’s a really good story beautifully told and we just hope that people will watch it and I see I hope this gives you the confidence to get more of the scripts I do thought closet yeah hello I I hope to find that one person out there that would believe in me we’ve been to hell do not tell anyone what you spent on the stock don’t keep that budget look you know keep it quiet because if anyone knew what we what we really did here with the amount of money that week that they would know that it was tried just shy of a miracle thanks there’s a part of me that says look what I can do for this amount of money if you would just believe in me I can do an amazing product with a few hundred thousand dollars you know I don’t even need you know millions of dollars I don’t need that and I don’t think a lot of people I need to bring a quality piece of work I don’t I don’t there was no backing up your call back I don’t know if you have heard of that or saw it but it was just for actors in a room that’s it and for a credible actors in the film was done for three hundred thousand dollars it just goes to prove that I’m trying you can just have a good story and if you have a good performance %HESITATION and just believe it stopped working I just believe in not directed that they can deliver something I would love to be able to find someone with a refurbished Alibag if we have so many stories that we have we can share there’s very different remains though very different where it I’m definitely more of a I liked eating any unnecessarily horror when I left I left to get people thinking I have four other scripts but I would love to help right thank you this crazy thing again I think that sets the toxic message to the nation I absolutely hear ye I I just totally agree with everything that you’re saying give people chances give people resources and look what they can achieve so that’s such an important message for this and I I just feel so privileged that you folks come on and talk about all this and shared your story and I hope that my tiny podcast can in some small way get that message out there as well for you so let’s see K. S. and Michelle angle heart thank you so much for your time thank you so much for sharing your story and just wish you all the best with everything it has to come and I hope there are great things coming for you and %HESITATION I really hope I get sick T. again that more links another time yeah me too well thank you so much thank you so much well it’s been a pleasure yeah it’s brilliant


Audiovisual Cultures episode 113 – Star Trekkin’ with Dr Andrew Shail automated transcript

can Peter replace first archive file hosts log star date ten March twenty twenty point seven the do you fancy watching some Star Trek the next generation with many of which fits of it when I was a kid but I think I missed the first few entire seasons and just watch that to pasta it's called encounter at farpoint one opens the first season I watched it yesterday and it is minutes ropey but besides it might be fun I'll try I have never been in this star trek through you will check and I'll sit here and say my nails are something hello Sir okay start date fifteen January twenty twenty two point two and there's a four season of discovery to get started on this we haven't even started the card is a ten episode season of thought and I'm dying to see what they've done with seven of nine and I haven't even told you buy property yet Hey just work there how many users are star struck we've managed to work so far across the ticket six separate seasons no no no I don't we have to fill in those short tracks we haven't even seen an apparently nor dax is %HESITATION me as an on hiring yes and there's twenty episodes not already hello and welcome to C. audio visual culture is the podcast that boldly goes say that collecting and disseminating arts and culture approximate time call up there and see I have a surprise for you the new year listeners may not know this but I used to have a closer to show established listeners please join me in welcoming back Dr Angie she she'll play G. like set have a good explaining what we're going to talk about saying we are going to talk about and that's content to constitute over fifty one thousand articles on memory alpha the Star Trek wiki or at least we're gonna scratch the surface of that because even though we have watched six hundred ninety six episodes of Star Trek across six series wait we have used this pop them next time while we have not finished watching all of the Star Trek and we never will what kind of if we done this back if the world had organize itself better and how to pandemic back in about twenty sixteen we would have watched all of the Star Trek and that would've been it we would have gone tech stock check done but since what's known as the Alex Kurtzman area since he took over as showrunner discovery starts going crazy recently so although we have now watched three seasons of discovery on top of seven seasons of Star City next generation seven seasons of Deep Space Nine seven seasons of Voyager four seasons of enterprise and a season and a bit of the original series case for if anything and some of the films yeah we even though we've done that and of course in completely the wrong with that that's still a mountain of Star Trek yet to watch and it's being me is strange you wrote this for exciting I love what's happening with spike it's very important character so there is no point in trying to go into the chain much detail there's gonna be loads of stuff again and the fight so I think very quickly some honorable mentions say amazing music scores strider tests usually ready awesome so we'll see if we can circle back to at any time so many incredible actors directors %HESITATION ares production just really awesome %HESITATION there's so many recurring actor she aren't part of main costs but we keep recognizing and they keep going back in the PDF by aliens and heavy prosthetic makeup is that lots of people get to come back across all sufficiency research is really fun so many big questions so much to get into the merry anniversary it's it might be made %HESITATION I love everybody Panfilov said is there's just so much today so I don't know if we can hope to see much justice but I just think we've really wanted to send China plate this journey that we've been on together with state really leaving I think so I can find but I suppose it be nice to say is that it's but this time this will probably come light it will be a solid year and a half since she's been on the show I need pretty much started status podcast with me any words of I'm sure that we kids foster many rooms schisms that have full between you and I and I'm sure if I'm sure you'll many lessons have been coming up with their own fantasies about what happened between you and I but I have simply been watching a lot of Star Trek with you initially sitting next to me and then increasingly going where has the speed you know my and the watching is taken over from the sitting down and talking about it you know you still don't see it so much we cannot assume when we talk about it for two hours and that would be it that of course Star Trek will never be finished therefore we have to and lest we just at some point brit the plaster off quite painfully and go right we'll now talk about just the six hundred ninety six samples that we have watched I know it's not ambitious insoles struck by that many opposite but we got those down and we'll do another one about the remaining at least five sixty episodes that we haven't watched because because deplorable we haven't watched the animated series from nineteen seventy three to nineteen seventy four although I do remember when I was a kid and because in addition I have been helping my employer read plan it's teaching turns ever so slightly accommodates two a pandemic that's taken a little bit of my time well I saw something quite fun to sit back and watch you gotta make friends amongst various humans you can make contact with via the internet these days you're free show it's fun just to hand on the baton of other people producing your free content for free so tell me how much do you make your patrons give rather causation number two hundred eighty six if giving away a podcast for free never ask patrons for a specific amount of gold pressed latinum we got a few preliminaries we need to establish in this %HESITATION put costs which I think might be a little this particular episode whatever's records might be a little bit longer casts as the other ones right so this is the way that Star Trek books you got the series that was just gonna start track which is closed down and started a business series the ad between September nineteen sixty six in June nineteen sixty nine that was seventy nine episodes across three seasons you got started the animated series September nineteen seventy three to October nineteen seventy four which is twenty two episodes across two seasons he got started the next generation between September nineteen eighty seven and may nineteen ninety four that was a hundred and seventy eight episodes across seven seasons with twenty six episodes in every season except for season two or ten twenty two episodes and we don't talk about season two the number but we will talk about season two and then starting but part way through the run of stars and expiration which we will call TNG we we we got Star Trek Deep Space Nine which ran from January nineteen ninety three to June nineteen ninety nine almost exactly the same as T. engineer had a hundred and seventy six episodes across seven seasons so Beijing because at this point and if we're gonna do seven seasons and then we just stop we were trying to go on forever your standard Voyager which started in January nineteen ninety five again parkway three deep space nine that run until may two thousand one hundred had a hundred and seventy two episodes across seven seasons again twenty six episodes in every season except for season one in that case which had just sixteen then Star Trek enterprise from the twenty sixth of September two thousand one the thirteenth of may two thousand five rising ninety eight episodes across four seasons with twenty six episodes in season one twenty six in season two using the patent being established here twenty four in season three and twenty two in season four and that was it in season four wraps up very quickly because clearly it had been canceled by that point which had a lot to do with it having debuted in September two thousand what knock on effects and that is very unfortunately timed I thank I felt ready sorry for enterprise I think they deserved a lot more there was so many accidents storytelling and emissions the world went into a very dark place and television became very dark and it just had no truck with these explorers going also domestically making new friends I'm actually probably convinced that if they just had a different features the whole success of the show would have been different possible yeah kind of perfect evil storm of anti storm of what was there again and I'm to be extremely precise it wasn't cold Star Trek enterprise until episode three point three up until then it just goes into the relationship to Star Trek was quite arm's length initially then Star Trek discovery which runs as started running on the twenty fourth September twenty seventeen I would just have three anti seasons the season four started on the %HESITATION in November twenty twenty one to republics of season four well that was the one where we had started to watch it on Netflix and then it just wasn't there this thing happened and then we find out what happens it just been taken off everything ahead of it airing on power lines plus I think here in November and so we were left stranded in the mirror universe and sees I actually had to borrow DVDs this it felt very pleasant and %HESITATION and so started discovery ongoing is accompanied by a short season of shorts tracks which I'm not counting after this episode's between twenty eighteen to twenty twenty others seem to have stopped now yeah I'm sure you'll your listings of correct that one you got started comment which started in January twenty twenty is now have ten episodes in its first season at a second season set to premiere in about a month started lower decks which started in on six August twenty twenty and has had so far two episodes across two ten episode seasons Stantec prodigy so we started in October twenty twenty one is part way through its first ten episode season and Star Trek strange new worlds is scheduled to launch in the middle of twenty twenty two an abstract we are most excited aren't we given that it was set up set up in season two off discovering right so that is what Star Trek is an over at we've watched a season in the base of the original series none of the animated series all of TNG all of deep space nine which of course record the S. nine all of Voyager all of enterprise the first three seasons of discovery and that's it that's how six hundred ninety six seven zero six the series and then movie wise you got the star treatment the motion picture in nineteen seventy nine star trek to the wrath of Khan in nineteen eighty two and this too it was tossed thing that's been added by firms you know it's this number was on the post is is the name of the shop said the numbering applies for a bit so static three such a spark nineteen eighty four stomach for the voyage home nineteen eighty six Stantec forms the final frontier at nineteen eighty nine centric six the undiscovered country nineteen ninety one Star Trek generations the number has disappeared nine nine four Star Trek first contact nineteen ninety six which we do walk if you or any other matter was at Star Trek insurrection in nineteen ninety eight one of the like if I thought this is just a long episode and I really just enjoyed it and data cop today fun stuff on the cutting face stretching as run mostly remember from that that in having one's face being stretched could kill you wouldn't just really hurt mutilate you Kerry I still think nemesis in two thousand two Tom hardy returning Tom hardy young Tom hardy and that's it for the films in that timeline because two thousand nine a film called Star Trek J. J. Abrams's Star Trek started what's known as the Kelvin timeline and that's a parallel universe reboot so it's not a review in the sense of right and once we get that all the original stuff happened as spider man has repeatedly done during our time no Star Trek does reboots probably it goes someone's going to go back in time and crashed Powell universe at folk universe phenomenon for which there is precedent and this shows we're going to get on to forking universes later Carlisle's worse and TNT I'm robin successive films not from choice well it franchise is still the same franchise but in that element of the franchise the Kelvin timeline %HESITATION including Star Trek no code on into darkness in twenty thirteen and Star Trek beyond in twenty sixteen I am expecting more films one thing I I have to get down right off the bat is that we have out of these films watch very many together every week because generations first contact insurrection and nemesis for TNG ones here same thing either but we haven't sat down together and watch the original series films I think I've as a child I may have seen the force one that's the only one I have any fique memory cells more just because of the way %HESITATION and then they're on travel sentry yeah that's all I remember about it and I think we're waiting to finish watching the original series yeah and they will watch those and then we'll what what's happening in order for it to we totally the wrong road and then this will get something comes in timely ones because of because even though the Kelvin timeline films technically don't have any bearing on innocent we've watched they do establish two quite big elements of some of what we have watched which is that they stop list cinematography that characterizes everything made off the two thousand nine including or the damn camera cameras being upside down just cameras constantly flitting around a lens flare as one the song much let's learn discovery even though it's not supposed to happen in the same universe as the Kelvin timeline from the J. J. Abrams films it nonetheless he uses that same style as if it does and also the Kelvin timeline films they establish the look of all of the species even though it takes a big steaming temple Iverson ret conning that was done during enterprise about what click on this post mark so we will get some tools this way for some time and resources movies but your your question whatever done in the past couple of years %HESITATION Washingtonian reversing movies other stuff tastes are going to sleep I suppose in a way that has kept us somewhat sane during these very challenging times over the past couple of years this is not Penn and experiences been easy really for most people on and like most people we've had our challenges during this past couple of years you know we've had losses we've had major separations from our families you know we've got see your comment that balancing mine for over two years you know so there's been a lot to digest it feels especially with the TNG era which is when I say here at Tyson I mean TNG DS nine and Voyager several U. chronologically coherent so I mean the three of them they all begin to feel like family and you become very emotionally invested in the characters so I think that's where that has felt actually portent to watch of this time and I know that there's a lot of established tracking site there who have been doing a lot of free watching of the series as well because they're so comforting I think we are going to do something very sensitive probably after a short break where we're going to rank the captains and this is going to be sensitive because these captains on our whole family I don't know if I have to rank but I've got my favorites Michael the ones I can meet the watching we've been doing this off we should note this at this early point in addition to saying right we're going to be using these acronyms TNG DS nine and so on as kids I was exposed to the next generation Deep Space Nine Voyager cluster does as far as I was concerned even though I had seen one or two of the original series from the sixties I seen the Montana you ever read on all the time even though it seems some of the films that came out in the eighties but used as characters even though I was aware that there was a regional sorry Star Trek it was the next generation that was the original series for me as a kid and expects not unavoidable happening within the same story spice that roughly the same time I thought that stuff was old Houghton and I as far as I was aware of the original series was slightly macabre from what I could remember as a kid visit as very young kids and also really slow I think it was because I'd seen the cage he originally on a pilot broadcast on TV in the eighties and it was really set dates as a kid you just kind of you want things to rap along with stuff to happen as my own daughter has has pointed out recently when we actually sat down with her what you're really quite corporate drama episode of discovery that was lost fighting and and space peak that that is a thing in softek there will be some cerebral episodes that briefly gradually get you to think about new concepts so you know as a very young child from that barely nineteen next generation it had pace even though it's full of tributes to the original series it's it's a different sort of based and this is something that has become really apparent in watching the original series it's got a lot more license yeah I mean there's no series had the direct comparison that you can do between the episode in the original series where everyone gets infected with a virus that makes them drunk and the episode very early in season one of the next generation where everyone gets infected with the same virus that makes everyone drunk is the difference between people going a bit nuts in the first one and doing things are a bit out of character and there was no series found in TNG everyone get very sexy %HESITATION Wesley rack in the shaft and Wesley crusher it should we should also note that amongst these family members we have a client during these past two years and you know with me is required but the summers I haven't see data is somebody with whom I feel I can identify quite extensively and you have said the same about to pull G. yeah I think initially but Lana and Voyager was so when I went I understand some of her anger but her anger was coming from a place I don't necessarily understand but I think to an extent that geology or fight and today is there with her because she's hopping on half human and and has had a very difficult upbringing because of class so and I think she's very interesting in terms of cemex race experience and I think she she presents a really interesting exploration of anger as an emotion but then it was Juanmi watched enterprise to poll I just felt sane people say that you know I finally felt sane I'm so many Aspin described by people from the right side he maybe don't know me that well as quite a lace they think I am you know %HESITATION this is Bethany SMI whereas I'm usually carving in a corner because I've got my anxiety disorder and %HESITATION nobody's interested in talking to me or a some people have had the impression I'm a bit taken %HESITATION for scale but that's not all my internal experience I'm externally have disco lists or something or detachments but inside there's just a tumultuous of mine going on to manage and when they really explore what it is to be both can properly with her for the first time because it's not really a lot of folk and there's no balcony and characters until two fox doing Voyager and tape box quite old he's over a hundred he's also a man you know it's very different but when you explore a female Vulcan property for the first time and she's a bit younger she's in her sixties which isn't quite the equivalent of being %HESITATION I might be insured your thirties or something twenty safe and even younger that's quite young for bulk and adults she's a Vulcan to Haiti as actually finding it very challenging to manage her emotions and then stuff happens to her because she's really interested and humans and human way of life and she experiments and then she meets sees quite radical Hokanson she experiments about more and things go back wrong and things happen without your consent and so she has these experiences with her house and the decline of slots hi they deal with her I thought it was some just really excellent television you know and and the and the two story since you're starting to get a far better understanding of more neurological conditions like autism and ADHD and especially because these are conditions are very difficult to diagnose and my men so women with your diversity are socially conditioned in certain ways and I think being able to explore maybe something along those lines with the Vulcan character you know ideally in character it's just gives you that safe space or any parent with those ideas and then think about them in terms of allegory for humans nice to be that something we have recognised happening across the network actually before next elements of individual service but if something happens across the next generation and Deep Space Nine and Voyager such that the story of one of these many arcs that spans the mini series is the story of just recognizing that some people okay yeah you can't do that in the original series but you can make some very impressive metaphorical allusions to it you can't do it in the next generation but you can make some slightly less vague slightly less buried allusions to it and that continues to the point when I think it's in twenty sixteen and Star Trek beyond that we finally have an openly gay character and it's not a big deal and then in Star Trek discovery from the beginning we've got I got a couple something that gene Roddenberry sets that he definitely wanted to feature in the next generation but he had so much pushback his career was just people pushing back and going knows audiences will be okay with that %HESITATION and so we have slightly Lasko did every single time references to it even having the first night almost and not the first onscreen girl girl kiss in Deep Space Nine but it was an early okay the trail and it's supposed to be between a woman who has been amount before kissing the woman to whom she was married when she was a man so it's not technically a girl girl kiss a psychologically even though it is physically so you know it's one of the ways they bury this will get thrown to the implicit commentaries on sex sexuality yeah everything you have the %HESITATION involved in being a troll later okay I'm gonna finish that review so what did you want to talk about E. R. for the functional aren't you shale I am programmed in multiple techniques we've also tried to do a lot of parking I. F. what nationality might these we'll do a whole however it is just a home that and it changes over time does change yeah because I think you know at times sick thing on Sir quite Russian but at times there may be more a Japanese at times there may be mark Celtic actually think they're really Celtic but I don't know if it's still there there are some parts of the language that signs actually like different versions of the Gaelic language all right so this several generations of it in the original series the claim guns appear to be Chinese both in appearance and in that depiction as being a rising enemy that is associated with because China would have been coming next time but nonetheless it yet that kind of comes in mind is the Manchurian candidate Manchuria is a territory which part of it is in Russia part of it is in China the maturing candidate is entirely about Russian and Chinese communist governments or at least the agents for Russian and Chinese communist governments teaming up to create these sleeper agents in the US and I think that what we get in the original series going on is this implicit sense of you know obviously the Russians are our way we can think is India and in order to medium our enemy but obviously the Chinese are as well because there was a communist government I think that's what's going on in the region of Sears at least kingdoms that only appear alien by dint of the fact that I generally short with wide angle lenses they just have exactly the same sort of look about playing on this night it was slightly longer moustaches it's like a dark skin as is given to cite Romans but shoot it with one of the lenses to make the nose %HESITATION but bulbous compared to humans but it's just that the idea of sickening on empire and that there's an emperor I think it's great imperialistic and what was on that the type of mustache it because they have that sort of thing national Sasha because China Netflix it's quite Japanese to me so I was wondering if Smith in March up indecent intentionally I think that Mr Shipp hotly alludes to the Freeman chief figure which is in the history of fiction is one of these I can we're doing things in the %HESITATION in order of medium yellow peril they just figures of the early twentieth century and that at least check to China but it could be the I think that that vague oriental sing in the Vulcans and the Romulans and the Clintons in the original series there will overlap in this particular the opposite we just watched the first one of season two of the original series but they're going to discover Vulcan this planet which is just it uses logic it totally doesn't when they go to discover it's full of ritual and superstition and people fight to the death it's just it's completely incompatible with the logic principal right Sir Clinton's by the time we get to the next generation all in now Russians %HESITATION and wolf when he's brought up on us is brought up by Russians she had what seemed to be a completely appropriate adoption scenario where no humans could take this click on child other than double odd Russians by that point what we have with the falcons and the Romulans is this it's been explained as being this kind of cousins situation such that it's quite clear that the Vulcans are Japanese they are these possible competitors possible allies on the world stage as brio champions of science and of capitalism site broken Japanese and the cousins are the much less logical much less into cooperating with everyone Romulans and they correspond to Chinese people can access become pretty clear by that point is that we now have Vulcans Japanese moments Chinese king owns Russians and we also have the instruction of the flooring the next generation who would yeah but if we're going to do this a lot over the next yeah it is it's gonna work in some places we love that and vegetarianism and everything differing DO almost certainly Jewish that's right coded as sorry technical days I think yeah sure that money obsessed their neck is very knocks her out today so that was operating a year off the eastern Jeez kind of thing in Germany and it's in the space nine we get introduced to two more species who seem very very familiar to you the big showrooms in the Cardassians yeah I I mean I I I not sure how much intentionality they raise but certainly at that time and certainly looking at it as a post conflict drama which is massive and tasks of mine you know that the Jordans feel like the Irish and the Cardassians feel like the British I think a lot of the story arcs the comite between them and DS nine really explore that a big grant I don't know I intentional that was but it it maps on quite a while because I think there are quite a few scenarios where that could be the case a lot of the S. nine is centered around because the space station was Cardassian and it was orbiting the planet update your and then the Cardassians withdrawal after a fifty year occupation and the federation and he N. type role takes over the station at in collaboration with veterans because a majority like major to get back on its feet and become a member of the federation and then there's always tension kids page or doesn't really want anything they want to be independent they don't really want to be part of this other thing but it's a bit like Arden's being part of the European Union so its its own free stay yet but comes part of the European Union so it becomes part of something bigger than that south Stormont truck because the space nine runs from nineteen ninety three to nineteen ninety nine that is peace process based process shares so I really got a lot of thought allegory if you can call it that I thought it was really interesting way of exploring that and map some reading while I'm sure we've noticed and we're going to miss the thing within so much forgetting I'm not writing stuff down over the past two years absolutely no stuff to go to many more correspondences between species in Star Trek and real world the Ontarians are that I like that they play and I left there and their entire night and enterprise concert animatronic in Waco when I'm with my fingers ten a week on there's but one that preserved when Jeffrey could %HESITATION I know what you're gonna say I'm not just acoustic band during the he plays warm front yeah and difficulties he plays character after character of the character in the space nine that keeps getting killed off he keeps getting humiliated and then finally he gets a character in the space nine his long running character and who is although initially antagonist he becomes quite an important ally it's a soft leisure to archer stuff here right Sir and yet there was one moment when he's in a much is low ceilinged ready room on the enterprise and he walks on this kind of running gag about people buying in the head yeah I just got back in it he plays captain archer he's very tall and he has this quite cramped dental office off the bridge and he there's a long running thing of him always having to duck underneath they Sam beam that goes across and this one moment when trends in that too and having a very heated discussion and Sharon walks under that same be minutes two and ten I. Big Bend dunk so somebody somewhere had the job of probably by remote control any deflating thing within those and then I said that they would the remote control is Jeffrey combs he's just the right height to not have to friend sure band or anything when he walks on the lot Baines but it's just the way he doesn't his body doesn't install on the antenna to spam backwards we have to watch it every three or four times less than half the stuff so clever because there's no reaction there's no it's just the little antenna and all that stuff see that's the sort of thing loses a little jams that enterprises ready great for and it just I think it's just personally searched by the network at the time and it's the two you can this is fine it's just my shoulders too much time sitting at a keyboard you know %HESITATION I can't take chief okay Nero pressure he can even stimulate your own your own notes it will help you sleep or if their son during a meal it's very durians terrorize humans invoke lines enterprise implies that these four species that the founding species of the federation and so we're talking trying to think about well it's an illusion to something that happened in a post conflict time maybe it's about the second World War about the formation of the United Nations already exist among the net maybe about NATO so if it's not a tire may be the adoring suspects to be arrested signatories NATO %HESITATION maybe that Canadians they say they are from an icy Maine because that's the thing if I what seems to become clear and enterprise which wasn't clear when Ontarians were in the original series as I understand it is on to work as a gas plant and %HESITATION door yet is the main stock planet and that's actually the main that they come from and it's ready I see so they had to re insert the lady was white hair and then there's that what is the other this call to Qusay the explorer there's another reason they're white some kind of cause and not a cousin species because they can reproduce or talking a cousin groups within the same species and I forgot yes I just basically I'm Dorian's white to skin yeah and the slightly different color noise here but they've been nothing under grind this one which is why they're so very upset when I say that white I mean they're Pierre white person Dorians are quite rightly well at least they're very bright today and discovery even bluer discovery than they are previously and they're the same color as their annual I suppose these are things that go back to the original series because it was just what color body paint can we put on these people today because we've got their Ryan's here great and so you know I don't know he the Orions are supposed to be but they do a really cool stuff with them and enterprise yeah I think okay Orion's probably evade Middle East yeah maybe possibly the end are just some of the Asian or something because that yeah they do have quite sure because it's quite a dark green and they have black hair blue and white sonic and there's dancing and the women are very alarming and that sort of stuff and while we're on the window anymore but while we have mentioned that you're innocent Cardassians the mark he got sick because the machi a role for the federation citizens arrest each star off the people who have officially form let what people have left Starfleet site and they formed this terrorist organization but as opposed to freedom fighters at some sort of thing is one person sees them as terrorists and other will see them as freedom fighters and their son on going argument but not language so I think that specifically in the context of the bitcoins being Irish in the Cardassians being British I think that specifically alludes to ongoing conflicts in Oakland but the machi are almost certainly the northern Irish Republicans yeah there's probably a fraction of the IRA or yeah you know I analyze something like that there and paramilitary organization of course the big numbers of the Voyager is machi being reabsorbed back into the fold and cut off as the enemy but being identified with common ground with them being shad and just some smoothing over differences and yes this is a very very American %HESITATION right terrorists Donald pigs there's not much characterization of some items that are presently we are we are I know for sure we are going to meet them in the original series we just haven't done see yeah I think that's it from main species maintenance technical races down the trail but they're more well it's more of a gender the trailer is species that can combine and hostess and meant so this big warm slug like creature that can be inserted into them surgically and becomes part of them and the semi and can hold the memories of that person they joined together so they become one person dead biological sex sells the host doesn't matter it's just whether they can join or not and so there's the trail goes through your training process of many years not every trail is suitable to become a host and only certain people okay and they they usually choose CLA so that's where we kept acts he is and the S. nine and then there's a whole big backstory waste management Cisco he kissed the commanders and captains he takes over for the federation DC sign so there's all of that but yes %HESITATION this ambience plan is its own identity but it lives through the host and the host will change so they they left it long life so curse on tax dies before DS nine begins but he's over a hundred years old and then the docks and the end is given to a job C. yeah he becomes just see attacks and you take on the name of your simians and there's a trail in TNG as well explore that was Beverly crusher falls in love with that trailer man yeah and then he is feeling when debts the Symbian could survive they have another host and is temporarily hosted by the freaks shocker right at Johnson freaks and it's only temporary because humans so the company just long term and that of course and discovery they terms for machine then but this is very temporary because it it's not going to hold but let's just keep says Samantha lives until and you trail hosts can come to an end you trail hosts as a woman and so that's really the first time where they directly deal with it potentially same sex relationship and how they handle it is back pretty going I don't think I can do this he asked because I think the how many worked right to travel very well you know very much at that point because it's basically like I am exactly the same person I was basically a blank sheet when I was out of the person but it doesn't mean it's taken over where is in DS nine the flashlight a bit more and it's more like they combine with each other so the tax ambient carries the memories of her son and all the previous hosts and explore the previous hosts right the series and then there's another host because Jesse and it around Tyson as street as a child he is on the tree and happens to be on the ship that's transporting the semi instead of so much of this stuff hard no well this for sure the true alludes to real world people who have a different relationship with that bodies yeah from Zacks which humans typically have so my initial instinct instinct was these alludes to intersex people then of course the point there's also indications that they lived to transgender people these accounts because there's not to be confused both of which kind of reasoning that times trail can be used to create short term same sex love story lines and this is very knowledgeable in that next generation episode where we first meet the trail that when Beverly realizes that the man she's fallen in love with the kind of way %HESITATION symbionts that was the manager's she'd fallen in love with is not a woman share of it he says something like we not ready yet for that sort of love as if she's going just beneath the surface saying our view is all of this right now in the US in about nineteen ninety are not yet ready for this sort of life that we're aware that it exists and that counts yeah so it's a bit out of line with all these other things we go always at this particular species on this planet that corresponds to this nation honors with his political group but what we we could also do with the trial is take the fact that for them the symptoms of a stroke for it to be immortal we can't identify them with a religious belief system on us which believes in reincarnation because that's the kind of real world version of recurring condition being a thing so perhaps the truest supposed to be south Asian may be affected by this yeah but there are no none of us that they used to say lots of things about real world people and the man that tangent I was trying to say that in the nineties we didn't have some language that we have not yet arraigned trans gender is summer or intersex people it was a year a transvestite or transsexual the Senate a surgical sex change you know for example where is we have much more nuanced language during those things nine and so I think it was a really interesting way of being able see explorer your gender identity and that it can change or that it can just be so they it's you know it's interesting hi there are times when Jesse S. or a deer at and discovery he is to human character he has taken on SMB incident the Symbian wouldn't die and they join successfully even on the dear it is a non binary after playing a non binary characters so this is really interesting they're really exploring that with them where there are days where they feel either challenging one of their very clearly masculine hosts you pre prior hosts and they feel very masculine you know Jesse it is super into the cutting lines hi this is really in the fight in order to face pricing and all of that all of us said quite violent sexual rituals that come with being and she's super and all thought but then there are times when she's very gentle and smarter Erica it's feminine she's right down psych because one of her prior hosts was a dancer there's things physically she couldn't J. when she was at sea about not she's dancing stocks she's got more dexterity because of the dancing because of the fighting abilities she's gonna language ability she never had before they become more than themselves here there's even a series Indies an absentee space nine where judge David axes rest for crime but it's a crime occurs on tax carried out and they have to get into this issue of if you're the same person as the previous tax because of the tax and that previous stocks was not two separate consciousness is giving the same body that does not mean that that person's acts and any responsibility for any crime they wanted committed those are also yours as well because you've you still got that person's consciousness within you thanks so that by having a a speech from Cisco which he basically goes number eight when the previous house studies that consciousness is is removed from the Symbian a little bit the match for use is is it's a bit like dissolving salted water and then you boil away the water and that just leaves the salt and then the new host is a lot more water than that then has that self dissolved into it so it's a perfect no mess also going actually node and not to the same person previous person they just carry the memories of the previous person with them so that they can occasionally have a chat with them your suddenly they can six a piece of equipment because of prior hosts was an engineer and they call them such a memories of what they could do you know that sort of thing yeah exactly do you fancy learning about every pointing I've been fostering it recently and it's actually really easy and it's quite relaxing when you get the hang of it dammit she'll I'm a podcaster not a bricklayer I think this episode is sponsored by socks notify I'm digress Christine contesting servic hello to Angie stone crests and Uncle Sam if you're listening because they tend to listen to the ones that you're in yeah and we're both wearing are very special socks thank you semantic processing and I'd also like to say a big thank you to my mom and sister because they mostly found our Netflix how but only to the founders of the finished yes certainly right my mom this year has got me Netflix such as her my per se and then for the winter solstice festivus winter break thing so they are partly to blame for all of this murder rate I have to say it doesn't just live off we always hear Naples the neighbors are always somewhere behind the scenes %HESITATION right I suppose the first thing to do is to establish that what we have been watching has had definite generations and not just that the next generation is the second generation of shows there is a definite generation which is TNG Deep Space Nine and Voyager that single generation happens at roughly the same time and I don't just consideration because they take place at the same time becomes G. a generation because they have roughly identical story principles which is that why you sometimes have two parties where one ends with a cliffhanger the norm is that each episode is a self contained story each series might have a shallow arc is steadily finding out a few more things about a mystery stately encountering more more of the Bulldogs say for example this one quite a concert happens while this may happen every episode is self contained then enterprise I don't know though I think in DS nine no I think the dominion war is quite if banks were your homes and they're the first series stopped us three part arc since file yes right K. nine correct this arc stuff into space than when I went to all those dates earlier on enterprise started about five months off to avoid direct option and that was that was new because voices started while the space time is happening and Deep Space Nine started wild THG very Kerry over not to the extent that they had to characters from another series plus on the BOP no somewhere in their pilot episodes yes there was definitely forking of storylines happening there yeah with enterprise it starts off the Voyager wraps up it initially starts off with that same story principle but then you can see a gradual re setting of the way the enterprises told because clearly it's ratings on someone trying to improve its ratings by changing the format I'm one of the ways that they tried to do that is that across the whole of series three there's one single arc while there are some relatively self contained episodes it's always always sound a bit more information that's going to help us solve this problem with the Cindy and that we haven't seen across the whole season before so the point is I suppose to point out that we were going to be calling TNG a series the S. nine S. series Voyager series enterprise series discovery a series but they're gonna be calling this thing series even though at some points they will deliver to that point where they see rules rather than series %HESITATION they are mostly series discovery gets proper serial particularly in series seasons two and three we're gonna be calling them series nonetheless so that we have them distinct because this was service has a separate using which is as distinct from season in the UK we use series to mean season let's talk about how great series three of the why it was and it wasn't service to restore because in the rest of try to season ticket after awhile because this season as most of the year and U. S. TV series for us here and it's actually one season because he's eight six absolutes are assisting from twenty six yes %HESITATION series as distinct from season robin series insisting that every single episode is self contained even there for most of TNG Mr DS nine must avoid Jack investment prize they are self contained so what can be done I think it's quite important technology I mean we said it before but I think it's worth going into in a bit of detail I do you really feel for enterprise I think it was poorly timed and party served and no one knew without someone's whole suspicious world events happens the popularity of the TNG generation they didn't really want to let up on that but those stories needed to just stop and pause and take a breather her mind was in charge at the time was not still seventy thought he sends Voyager's wrapping up because they have this thing where as we've established they go for seven seasons and many stops and so they they and that seven of them during our work here is done yeah it's a long time you know and it's a very you know because it is the bulk of the year it's usually nine or ten months the cast and crew are working on this one show and thirty and eighteen hour days sometimes six to seven days in a row maybe one or two days off and then they're back again for another new solid wake you know they're not getting weekends and not ready can time their families that's a really really tough environment it's physically exhausting and after she well it's brilliant to have steady work and a lot of them will jump on it because it's steady work in a very intense environment very competitive environment it's a lot of your life to give up so seven years is sick a number where you can stop and go off and do something else to do other projects and still if you've been wise you can live off the fruits of that and then of course by that time you've been invited you're certainly the conventions are happening and a lot of these people they can they have also closed for the rest of their lives pretty much just stand the conventions the creases all that sort of thing but enterprise I think was probably quite rushed into production there is this idea to go right back to the very start because there's a bit of lower by the very first Cox and you know the very first not federation us the organization that would become star fleets you know their very first captain on a ship called the enterprise being cold archer so I think they go back and they want to develop on that and make it and church I thought and it's radioactive a six because you're having to go write this needs to be a hundred years before the enterprise we're familiar with from the original series and I got very excited when we started watching enterprise because essentially ever so gradually over at TNG DS nine and Voyager technology has got to the point where it was essentially magic it wasn't just you know that what is its office he talks and Laura which is that any sufficiently technologically advanced civilization is indistinguishable from magic it wasn't just things that look like magic to the uninitiated it was that it was essentially a magic you just say to vote emits an investor here on pulse and then it would just fix every thirty minutes I'm sorry by the very last episode of Voyager whether we're basically trying to do the impossible and then use the Borg's trans warp conduit network to get they were up against the immovable object of book technology but of course they were equipped with the unstoppable force of being able to do whatever they wanted with static great ship which distant tooled up by help from future Jane right and those two things they could always just get back to so there was always this technology thing of what weapons magic technology we've got much technology on it they just made that technology more magic solution accountability more magic and that was a big result of going up against the book somebody in the void yes the technology had just become something that meant that the laws of physics didn't apply to anyone after I am reason sap environment nothing's at stake so when they went back to enterprise I went back to the twenty second century I think M. S. twenty one fifty one the growing right we're going to a point when people are just starting to break the light barrier Cumans just starting to break a lot and they don't have shields they don't have replicates is they've just been given transporter technology by the falcons in that scared of it it's fantastic it just keep on the throw up the trick you just on their stomach to be slightly misaligned or something %HESITATION some of their items today just not in the right place so introducing limitations introducing actually certain being constrained by the laws of physics again I was really excited so there's so much potential in enterprise scorned it entirely by the sea in June and okay we the pharmacy because I'd really I'd like to get into the television contacts of the time of that history you know because nine eleven happens just as it's a bite to air and things just never really come right for it and it's not the programs files shows like twenty four you know counter terrorism becomes big thing in TV and so then enterprise coastline the counterterrorism rate and seasons rainy because seasons one and two you just haven't quite hit the mark so is there desperate to try and improve the ratings so they try to have a go at having a massive terrorism marking the do something huge because spacey and it's huge and so it's millions rather than Tyson's that are killed and there's this massive revenge arc and country terrorism mark it was only had a flirting with posttraumatic stress in my comment back in it's called best of both worlds as but talked about what he becomes book and it's free and then immediately after that they have a college experiencing PTSD well they had that with that before in the form of art ship I have this story here across the series does thing after thing after thing which is compromising his morality such that by the end of the series he's just a shell of a man who is constantly angry at everyone all the time and so two to four major decides the very next episode beginning I think the beginning of the fourth series to write one where he has to go to faces demons yeah yes to do what the Condit face that PTSD but it's much worse for him yeah even though effectively he's physically fine he hasn't just had all these implants put into his body and his consciousness change he's just done a bunch of morally compromised things because ever so gently into that twenty four territory of what we don't want to torture people we just have to and don't ask me why we have to yeah it goes into different areas and and it felt quite cynical and it's a shame because actually beyond that I felt there were some really strong episodes of television some really strong storylines and so many strong writing you know the characters are really coming to life I just think there's there's so many accidents characters and not that it was again just inching more and more and see a greater diversity of types of characters well and background to this character I mean who she is fine days Chanel I mean all of that translation at universal transmitter technology that's taken so for granted and all the other series we see the origin of thought and Hoshi Sato who he is is very young woman and she's twenty one years old when enterprise begins so she's twenty five when it ends on she's a genius linguist he has this just capacity and her Permian for language but not just language they showed she can pinpoint accents and dialects to rural areas and North America you know she's incredible and so her character gets flashlight she also the very first ever trip to rice said the pleasure planet wherever he goes to get laid we usually wait at sac state sorry rancor that we really can't and she slaps on an anti anti anti if ISIS Picard to go there for a better if our in our %HESITATION writer likes to visit ryssa actually io in enterprise say establish there the first humans to visit is the first enterprise team and %HESITATION she has a very nice time and she has sexual agency and it and nothing happens to her and it's really fun but how about things how all the books he goes all right you it and quite comic ways you know and it's quite it's a really fun act as soon as you know and it's she just makes friends by picking up the language she starts to speak ricin to people and they go off while you're speaking and you've got the accent that's really good and she also learns the language of someone else she's someone who isn't from rice he's got this extremely complex language picks that up as well and that's how they have the sexual relationship yeah and it just isn't she just leaves we can't saying and it's really lovely and she goes five mining and I'm a really nice experience for her no one's getting honey trapped no no one's getting in an alien parasite inserts didn't she has a nice time where is tracked and raids police and offender under punks her and Travis he breaks his leg or something my can claim and something like that I'm sure he's calmed an agent Karamat test its first season so it it sounds like it's slow but it's a really fun episodes you know things like that where they just really establish character and they actually play with some sexually agency for the young woman then they don't she and her for you know what happened she just hasn't got the time and that's it it is so I really appreciate it thanks I thought that they could take because finally there and the two sides and said they were able to take that step by tiny step yeah but that step is way ahead of the steps that the average moral principle is willing to take the question I was pushing as as much as they can and thanks to the track culture channel we're not the biggest subject that's by far thanks to the track coach online on and that they were doing something very similar with discourse about drugs during the nineteen eighties as a conversation between Tasha Yar and little Wesley crusher about drugs which doesn't take the just say No line which admits that people take drugs not because they're weak people because they're in horrible circumstances option and that really brings a sense of business lots of their when you tweeting about now we have another segment to record going on still not procrastinate so we're going to see Jesus yeah we'll probably need to build up to the S. you the original series I mean that is even before I had a notion of ever watching any Star Trek we all know that same chain as just part of cultural currency as Matt it's just so in bad it we all know that distinctive things changed and now that we've got say season tape and watching the original series now we've got the soprano and we rarely makes sense yeah you know what we're learning about this whole in the wrong order of course what we would do it ten when we go to enterprise we've been decked for twenty one seasons in theme music that was descended from that original by way of Star Trek motion yeah because the theme music for the next generation it includes the front fan from the original series theme by Alexander courage with Jerry goldsmith's theme for Star Trek the motion picture and then the theme music for deep space nine is music that's very similar to the music for the next generation and then the theme music for Voyager which puts me on the verge of tears I'm sorry they can much the same thing it was all just but it was done with much longer sustains knows you got a long way to go before you have yeah so that was that was all very similar it was big as orchestral and no one was singing and then with enterprise what happened was an existing piece of music which was called faces the hot written by Diane Warren and performed by which to it and perform for the soundtrack to the nineteen ninety eight film patch Adams %HESITATION yeah and then it was re written Russell Watson reworks it as when my heart will take me as the C. music for enterprise it was re recorded I think for season four so the slightly different version slightly more upbeat music when it snowed for seasons three because she remembered come we come up to same chain anymore because this is so I do yeah and so in Congress and to what we're seeing in every after every episode was so traumatic and for the violence in the school and said you know this music so upbeat and hopeful I just noticed it was re recorded for the third and fourth seasons it probably would have been appropriate soul and she with lyrics I come not with lyrics it was a strange decision and and maybe that had something to do with people not necessarily take an enterprise that seriously and then with it just being called enterprise initially people didn't associate at property was star track so it didn't really take with the track audience is already established some with the word faith in the title given the attitude towards faith established by virtually all of the Star Trek so far didn't fit so yeah Tenerife sure exactly I think it's unfortunate a lot of by enterprise is unfortunate it didn't serve what it Kate has pain and what parts of it where I needed to know being a doctor there's just so much is greeted by an enterprise and it was pretty certify some rainy practice sessions a look look at what was great about enterprise getting Scott back in a tie the captain yeah wonderful knowing what tends to happen to people when they play in science fiction that was probably his way of going right I am going to get myself associated with the new character because some back it yeah really yeah it took me a while one of stress or enterprise at the time it was broadcast to shed the %HESITATION that somebody gets them from going to and he had he changed definitely changed it's taking a lot of opportunities to get his top off and to definitely do I think that some back it never done which was really quite stridently issue orders to people to be a part of solitario zinc they just have that one where dean Stockwell listen so late we had ready not long what style and then a couple of months later dean Stockwell passed away but it was nice to see not and having them back together again the being at first race this time but I think that was probably one of the things that mess served enterprises that has created a sculpture killer is on the character of archer there's too much emphasis on him he had to be the hero every time it's not something that I love to school very but there is too much of everything relies on Michael Burnham by the time we go to the lost users voyage we December sister Kimberly off well with this is that a %HESITATION yeah all of this is a parasite yeah this is a nine so that's it %HESITATION but to focus so it's every every now and then you get to see that doctor so yeah yeah something like that could decide okay right we're with this character as in person so get stressed I'm not going through next generation often it was a pecan decided because it was in an episode about what the crew has headed by him how to do and coming up against a particular adversarial problem and he would be the main one to solve it but very soon you start to get Joe decides where it would follow Jody across the day and he'd be the one you have to solve the problem any great lines are by data very often you directed by one of Sam by Jonathan Franks or the far pardon for Patrick shared unless miles's partner up right now as an opportunity for artists to get into directing Star Trek has been great to sing how much of of season three of Star Trek discovery Jonathan Frakes star he's I know he's still going to separate levar Burton said loads of all the others as well thanks for using the law invoice or an enterprise's enterprise a lot of enterprises directed by roping me Neil he was Tom Paris and Voyager and he went through the academy the directing academy and I loved the delta flyers it's a fantastic podcast is to re watch that Robert Duncan McNeill and Garrett long he'd played Tom Paris and Harry Kane and Voyager if they make this together to re watch series so they talk about each individual episode every time Andrabi McNeil because he sensed become a director rather than an actor it's really interesting for him because he watches the absence more acid director he can barely remember the acting side of it for himself because he spent so much of that time observing the directors and learning about the production he spent more energy on top and pretty but you know he still turns up and he doesn't acting really well yes that's been a really interesting thing and the same thing happens with rocks on Dawson who has been on a tour is not Shushi S. night more well known as a director and she spends the director and producer and executive producer %HESITATION loads of other shows nice and sent on films as well principal of character gets an episode and it might be even a relatively minor character I mean I think the box yet so it says we are missing back now that we've gotten to discovery because almost all about Michael Burnham and that is the thing is well actually you do have those recurring car actors so %HESITATION the likes of this kind of Barkley I tried Schultz he's very well known as hiding Matt Murdock and eighteen you or like civilians we mention already Jeffrey combs playing lots of different characters fun Armstrong place up to different characters across as the series character Andrea Robinson and Deep Space Nine you've got these really important recurring character she are not me in Castro hopes all voice okay when you have that was come up somebody else's mouth a massive card whose Montauk some such a thing as tasty voice %HESITATION and he is that he plays Chiron he's bright and as a sea ice west ham on around you I enjoy yeah always double in size yeah a tendency to come straight on minor corrections is a thing and that has has has grown to discoveries are we get lots of you know this particular mine account to get the scene at this point but there's no such thing in discovery as an equivalent offer Joe decided or they decide probably because I S. more serialized rather than episodic so the ideas in the earlier ones that you're going along nicely there on their missions bloody bloody battle thing happens and it centers on this one character so you're driving into that character a bit more but I suspect that came up by it because of what happened with Denise Crosby because she left before the end of season one of TNG because she just wasn't getting anything today so she's playing Tasha Yar who was said chief security officer on the enterprise and you know the actress was really frustrated at just having these perfunctory nines and something very similar it happened with the sound echoes in the original series but she claims in her autobiography that Martin Luther king convinced her to stay because just her being on TV and every episode at some point even if all she said was healing frequencies of what she called really fed up with thank you for it and she's a brilliant actress and she's got such precedents but she's getting so little state so are you know for the whole I mean the whole of the first season that's basically all she says is healing frequencies opens our message coming in from Starfleet command center yeah and that's really boring for her and she's just a set of flags you know but because she said of prime lanxess baby important because representation really does matter we were talking the other day if I may Jamison is that he was the astronaut he was inspired to become an astron joined NASA because the finish on the hills and you know so that is groundbreaking and not sense cameos and transporter for so she's sort of TNG and they met on the set and everything it was really special but you know with Denise Crosby as Tasha Yar she's got so much to get F. and she got really fired up and you think by the late eighties even a white woman would have something more to date but no I mean and and it was annoying because it was great if they had a woman I really kick ass woman being the security officer you go to do that for you in about the third episode yeah in the rather racially problematic like I said that's fine with the princess in which someone have to die then they would very quickly be not present to enterprise make them not to be that yeah yeah most of that fight was done by some from this server Dennis because we wouldn't have been much involved in it but she did get to do that scene with data she did get to say to him you are fully functional on she so are any they really sexualized her and it was because of that saying you know this virus that made them a little bit drunk so drunk that she didn't have the composure to pass quickly do you have a hat with a disco maybe there's a future technology that just does that for you I don't know so her frustration meant that she wanted out of her contract so they killed her off and never quite merciless about that so rather than just that %HESITATION transferring give her the option of coming back the kilter Beverly crusher gates McFadden who actually also works under another name isn't she but yeah but she's being a choreographer she uses one of her other names I can't remember this is shameful she did just transfer off the enterprise well the staff from because I think that I think that show runners of the writers or something just wanted to do something different so it wasn't her choice I don't think and then they brought in another doctor Pulaski said she's brilliant but then I think because fans petition to get property crusher back because there is a saying there is a bit of a thing between her and the cards so I think the fans really want to dock so Pulaski just isn't there for the third season of Beverly crusher comes back and that's it yet despite last year it Cheryl gates McFadden okay sorry sorry I suppose now we here we ought to talk about season two of the next generation cast well let's at least just mention that right because in the next generation as we have both learned from reading interviews with Patrick Stewart song it was not a total clear during those first two series that this would think would run for seven I'm saying services on site for seven seasons and there's even a vet I noticed what looked like an outtake that hadn't been caught in one of the episodes in the early in the first season of TNG when I caught is walking into the tub after that shit show of him from the side and when the temple if doors open he opens his mouth as if he's going on and I don't think he is tired not it could be because they always cut the sound out when they put this on the table if those on he's doing a big open mouth face as if he's doing that kind of joke thanks to the person who's on the other side of the table afterwards that we cannot say and you think that's just and then posting around on set that's going to be not take the name of that made it into the finished episode there was a kind of informality about that works during the first couple of seasons and it was because they were expecting to have any moment but that's it it's all over this this farce of trying to resurrect starstruck in TV film my server and it very nearly walls because of how %HESITATION season to end it because season two ended with them running out of money and having to do what was in effect a clip show for the last episode of season two on Friday here and us yes season two it was the one episode of TNG that was what seasons are older ten G. that has just twenty two episodes so as for a potential I just run out of money and for the very last episode all I could afford was doctor Pulaski couple of other characters something including Troy marina Sirtis about dialogue with them with Reika lying on a table I'm original scene which rocky gets infected with something and that set the rest was clips Compton from previous episodes which is supposed to be ham remembering things having this internal battle it was awful it is the worst episode of Star Trek Africa I think even Franks calls it a piece of shit yeah I'm quoting him not selected for him who knows whether they knew at that point whether they had been renewed for a third season but that's the operation of people who don't care whether they can review yeah I'm not B. axes it's the position on this and making this decision but guess rate for third season and from that point on which just goes from strength to strength and becomes yeah I mean that by the end of season three and then not see instructions to both work at scrapping you know I think that was probably the same age where I was investors okay cool earlier we were talking about want certain things in Star Trek correspond to in the real world now of course we didn't mention the book but kind of coming of this species of animals as the book him on to species no it's pretty damn close to the surface that the Borg are communists because they have a collective consciousness collectivist that's hardly insightful for us to point out but it's important to note whether that just a new version of Russians because these are their invented towards the end of the nineteen nineties sorry seven eighty I idea in on right now it's kind of eighteen nine ninety point we're talking soaring of the Cold War we're talking that point where there's a classic line in ten minutes to where young John Connor goes why tech Russia aren't they are friends now there are there are friends nothing I don't think the book is supposed to be Russians I think they're supposed to be home grown communists are supposed to be socialists amongst the American population and that's why they're so dangerous because they are on their way to work with them not stopping at conventional boundaries than on recognizing the boundaries of the federation but of course much more interesting to me the dominion we didn't mention the dominion the dominion have a three tier hierarchy with the founders or change things at the top who are regarded as gods by the bottom starts in the middle starts in which is the fourth to her clones genetically engineered by the founders in order to access this middle stratum after hierarchy and and the soldiers on the jem'hadar and there again genetically designed from scratch and designed in order to be biologically dependent on the substance called white which means that if they somehow get free of civil servant changelings don't just come out and die within a couple we have run out of light and they seem to be coded as African slaves I thank yes the hierarchy of Lewis and intermediate class that they used to they never have to have anything to do with the people who buy real well and then the people have a real that was the principal of the British Empire it was using Indian this obvious people from South Asia as administrative costs in African colonies during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries we've already mentioned before that the Cardassians especially corresponds to the English with a British the British imperialists but the dominion they do almost exactly the same thing host often flavors of British imperialism because they're the ones who went last and then the ones who went east and I think the ones he went last immediately to Ireland's are what we're thinking about it was Cardassia and Bajor but also then for their faith to the Americas and then I suppose it's just general European colonization of the Americas is stuff that's happening there today there's a lot more native American type stuff then mostly in Voyager today definitely this is a menu in there so %HESITATION sorry bank allegory of those things but some some interesting just how easy the contestants team up with the dominion yeah after the dominion start invading the alpha quadrant yeah because their flavors of the Sam saying there but even the Cardassians come across her because it's all the dominion is just so Collison crow and the Cardassians state become subjects of the dominion and they have to have their own revolution terror free Cardassia for main cabin page or to help them H. or help some so it's a little bit like the English deciding that even though you don't want to be part of the empire anymore it's basically going everyone needs to have found that the nation and I've once a nation and will only function if it's founded on revolution yeah which of course is how America thinks about nationhood yeah to be founded on revolution the federation planets in the middle you know you've got ours he's become these have babies where led to believe and I actually liked I appreciate the way enterprise deals to stop because when they go back to earth people and ours are still our souls and it's the one CD first Hey go on exploring their the vegetarian SpaceX base but the ones he stay honors they're gone what are you going off poker night there and bring in a list evil stuff back to us they're very xenophobic you know and they attack Helion species that are hanging out with the federation you know the Starfleet once federations in question but the Starfleet ones so that you know being a doctor phlox and both in the Senate you know the falcons lays in a complaint and suppose quite curious to be human so she'll put on you know I had scar for something to hide her ears you know and trying their hair so that'll cover I. Bryce Bennett and she'll go off to jazz clubs and things and be a bat yes you know testing the waters and then of course falls in love with the humans so let me get a precedent for %HESITATION Spock's very existence because we get a human Vulcan hybrids there was a point when Tucker and t'pol they learned that they had a daughter but it was a genetic clone you know they've both had tissue samples taken against their will and it's been climbed in and used by these are terrorists to create this thing which is supposed to symbolize the pollution of the human gene pool by foreign DNA but the script writers for that episode they point out that it's not just on lightly it's basically impossible for us for a species from this planet and species from another planet her not to told a late cousin spaces too it's completely impossible from to reproduce together and said this baby this is produced from to pop and chips cells doesn't survive no it's not no they they flock senator demonstrates that actually it was a combination of cloning process that meant that the baby doesn't survive and that actually it is perfectly possible and sure they're stato their timeline when they have a son they have a son not journey together you know you member when they're stuck in the expansive Delphic expanse and the third season of trying to find this and date products they recommend us other enterprise but it's over a hundred years old and it's captained by their son and it's kind of retro fitted the sentence also yes still alive yes okay very old woman I think all of them are you know when the storm is ever recognized that it would be impossible for species from two different planet to reproduce %HESITATION so they set the precedent then because it's one of those work there these hard roads to go three where that's another Greek and for mixed race relationships that have had a very hard roads to become acceptance in society all over the world so like civil Vulcan and human having a relationship to Poland's check Tucker have a very difficult time they have a very traumatic romance really fucked up if so way four Sirach and Amanda T. later be able to marry and have a son he is Spock I think enterprise is very important J. helped us see a lot of the establishment because in the same things you take for granted but they're very hard roads to go sorry before somebody can have the privileges that paves the way for and just to credit currently the we are the vegetarian space that's right that is from you tube video by Alistair Beckett king which is a letter S. the little detail about how business listing is often space I know but Star Trek tends to tends to mean that everyone's said agree that not that direction or the media accounts is up in space if you're enjoying the show and would like more information straight to your inbox head over to audio visual culture stock com linked in the show notes and sign up to our mailing list I think it's time to break the captains that's it right the huge today and that's because there's a big question in Star Trek circles which is kinda cool pecan now and also to that particular question the answer is obviously Picard think fast cars Fisher is designed for anyone with the head screwed on the tool it's become because Kirk although there's times when he goes well I'm in charge shut up most of the time he's just kind of louche and laid back he's not in control of situations and moments when you should be doing something to make a difference he doesn't he's not a very good captain until Picard his diplomat he's a manager he's in control of that ship and makes decisions including when he's run out of ideas going suggestions and someone comes up with suggestions because what we're gonna do that and there's always time for a Cup of hot gray writes monopoles yes hot drinks DS nine and Voyager everyone's got a hot drink at some point and I think that's probably because it's a stop motion enterprise are old drunk half the time they have to have something in the hand that isn't to be drinking alcohol yeah because they haven't got since the whole yet I'll go holder drinking here to escape its on Dorian E. L. X. wine they're just constantly let sin I'm going back to the bridge crisis and I think that's maybe they've done not to go well wonder why they all just started drinking hot drinks your coffee and tea all the time probably so yeah because it contains sole responsibility for the hot drink principal right set to come up and cut we just understaffed right but we have all the captains to access into this thing said Saturday %HESITATION just share with you my list of captains okay the card is the best second place in the backseat not my favorite that's what I'm saying is there's a distinction there just the front that Picard worked out that in the very early episode that he was being communicated with but with people whose language didn't have five star concepts just differently figured out put some way of of Cuttack white that patient and he doesn't like children right that's stuck with children and he survived so that alone yes the man is a hero on the observer he became a child exams to be jealous second placed English French on their he wants I took one French words and I missed it the rest of the same matters all the time I don't think he smashed RK tunes different which means feels that way they can get away with wearing them since I lost highly saline drops the F. bomb and she stopped saying that night stranded and then just trying to be a grown up second place foreigners January I don't agree with that I think Jian Wei it's the void you create a lot more danger than is necessary there was a lot of let's just go poke at that reward as we end up not being Sir knight really there's a death and destruction in everyone pokes at the net so that's that's a baseline she's very good at making decisions go head to head with people she will take advice she has what I and my friends at university used to convertible sex oral sex with verbal sex with check I was I know they are the people who can actually get together because she's she's captain they should have been together by the end of the thing they did was seven and Chakotay was just not okay let's go with wrote that because of the whole your captain you can't have a relationship with and that is that's established quite early and purpose of the holodeck our system is currently in TNG where the card does have a relationship with one of his crew members yeah and then goes yeah and his conclusion about why it's it shouldn't happen is that he has the ability to order her to have that and that would really hurt him if he was ordering his apartment to his death where is my Jamie's time what they've accomplished is you will not have a relationship with any %HESITATION crew members because if the power relationship involved it would be a good place at peace house to do right now of course what the docks to he talks with her about this does is he goes what do stuff on the holiday and the holiday is an implicit reference to masturbation the holodeck says it's okay to masturbate and this is the way that Star Trek just very quietly addresses something that everyone's thinking but that no one can publish the size affairs such yeah yeah Jameis doesn't she definitely pokes and stuff but she does have some under B. B. says Paris up tighter so if you get time to do some of the venue can be cash are going if you're a good balls %HESITATION right so generous and puffy clouds underpaid base so the other four captains of them over I'm sure that has been on the other four captains all of which we are aware %HESITATION Cisco comes the captain yeah sources a comma comes captain archer yeah pike love hate I have a soft spot for patrons is not just the part of the pilots I'm one of the latest series one of the centers for the reasons there is this is the mind thing is fantastic this is the part of season two of discovery discovery and then we'll continue and strange you are else which we are sorry to yeah by Rebecca Roman he is reprising the role originated by the queen of star track Majel Barrett's this this is basically visions of future divisions alternative Kerr starch in alternative nineteen sixties in which the Star Trek that was made was the Star Trek as part of a pilot called the cage where because what happened the reality was that the first particle the cage with pike as the captains and female number one he's never named that wasn't approved but Jean Marie was told to go and make another part that we're interested in the ideas but what you just made was way too sedate no they said it was two separate pearl yeah okay to answer read Earl so it makes no this great you know that you can see in the inset televisions as not have these massive pulsing cranium is I saw a lot of fact was great for the nineteen sixties was hurt it's in the mid sixty thousand I thought I was class the N. B. season are getting to make another point at and that one is picks up and that's the policy which Shatner's Kirk I'm the only candidate can is and even book gets retooled his eyebrows get tied it often becomes less emotional yeah and isn't shy XM sixteen S. explained that it was that Jeffrey hunter was tight and he was playing a very dead pond you know very street sorry %HESITATION yeah right talked in a very serious and so then %HESITATION he might all one has to be up on what has to be nine so he's very expressive songs a lot so we have millions he laughs he takes joy in things that they find singing farce and it makes him laugh and the woman there's everyone has to watch it for that scene but by the time we interceptors cast and turns the other way he's very expressive and dynamic in JKT so then your name mine comes the serious straight man then later in season one orders are unused footage for that part of it hi can number one get the cage all of that is re used as part of an episode in which pike is brought back but it's a different actor and he's seriously injured and Connie can speak on his returns to the planets of titles for and so it pike isn't knowledge to have existed and so because of our what can then happen is that in discovery we can have interactions between which of course is a set about ten years before the original series we can have interactions between the corps of discovery and the crew of the enterprise I was commanded by pike and from season two point becomes acting captain of discovery and we meet number one as well his name is which is right which is a female one and spontaneous at the end of season two when discovery is flown to the future we got a little after log in which we see the setup where lots of disruptions to what happens to the enterprise those were resolved and everyone's back on it thanks for coming out and spoke back on it and he's been restored this instruction is that because they were using holographic communications %HESITATION pay claims sought for all the systems failures on the enterprise and that's why we end up with a few screens because he orders and all the rest that's why even though we've gone totally spicy with the first awfully of discovery that's why when we get to enterprise we get to sorry I'm division series that's why the tactics request so but that but I setting up for the adventures of the enterprise as commanded by col right in the decade or so up to you when you get when you cook takes over as captain and of course if the cage had been picked up as the the actual first episode of Star Trek Shatner would not be would never been Kirk would never never been in Star Trek prison and we would have a very different sort of Star Trek and now that's being imagined in strange new worlds and someone seems to come in writing for discovery gone we got a whole bit of story that no one ever told which was the adventures of the pike commanded enterprise other than the cage so yeah we're all very excited about this particularly the working within the box of limitations which is what I've always uniforms have to look like this but we can change a few things they've kept the colors but they often lack of things this is how I rate the captain's altogether sep best captain Picard second best J. NY Brian knows third best Cisco I do not think that Cisco isn't quite as good a captain as Jane Wright is that Cisco has a slightly greater tendency just to go completely bonkers I think he gets processed in one episode and spends internet such as making a clock I think Jane whenever anyone gets possessed by something well they're still killing killing time is whether taken over by the her %HESITATION Jen and I have this dance programs they get programmed into the hollow programs your he further rather than things I can't sleep at night so I read all this stuff are you read the second lesson to the delta flyers and they've just done those episodes when they just accept that double episode with her religion so it's all fresh for me %HESITATION I'm reliving it all again during my has to deal with a slightly more difficult situation than Cisco which is that she has to ask can we even continue to apply star fleet and suppose he comes face pirates Cisco he has to do with complex geopolitics but the federation is still next door right so off to Cisco Seru I think that zero is a basic captain pike that's the thing yeah it seems to be somewhat cavalier he has maintained to this point has this really annoying tendency to go on away missions let's be clear what happens when the captain goes on away missions the captain gets captured right so the captain should never go on an away mission first off a second later admissions that's fine probably best if you don't have the first office ago anyway reasons I haven't changed because it's been slightly different this it should be shift whose job it is to fight people yeah there were several occasions in TNG where an away mission goes out and gets captured and Reuter has to go off and find the card and so he's left commanding the enterprise for its data as third officer spike's tactical emissions so route the onetime Seru goes and why mission is because he goes we're going to talk to I can help you and he's probably terrified it's probably a child I needed help and he says a friendly face he has a big justification for going on the away mission he leaves one I discovered crash lands when it first arrives in the thirties factor thirty three sections he leaves when the ship Congo anyway goes to go make first contact but that's just my perspective the ship's crash landed on the planet it's not like it could go anywhere yes Sir %HESITATION sometimes there's a ship but mostly when he's captaining at least remains on the ship and tells other people to go do stuff where spike is always going on away missions very first away mission he leads is one where he comes within it and not swing of being killed to go let's give the crew on the Hiawatha well yes and people just in their own these things to manage it %HESITATION dangerous difficult situation when he comes this close to being killed and he just about get saved by a combination of burn them and the two albums people on discovery %HESITATION working together and it's it's later revealed that he's actually he's doing what a captain sure knows he shouldn't do which is putting his himself in harm's way because he feels like being excluded from the cling on federation war he wasn't given the opportunity to prove himself so he keeps trying to prove himself that's a flow yes that's right all right so off the pike sure what should does make some quite stupid decisions he doesn't listen to people it does not listen to this fall she says second officer she's initially there as a she's not part of Starfleet or anything but she's R. as an adviser and she effectively becomes a science officer and is creating that first officer of the whole ship and they make that more official she resigned her commission at the Vulcan high command is that the %HESITATION on because she wants to stay with them and help them with their is that when they go off for this indie stuff yeah and %HESITATION she becomes more of a civilian but she is effectively an honorary member of the crate and Starfleet so she is effectively the number one but he never listens to her and she's much more experience she spent time in deep space before on both and chefs she center six days she's got loads more experience than any of them on the shelf and he does not listen to her ever onto also has this annoying tendency to go on away missions because yesterday every time so his life is put in danger unnecessarily crunch time constantly and then of course Kirk for his many faults which on other just into the fact that these convolution waiting times about everything yes yeah it includes the fact that he smokes everyone is very much in favor of this well there's a female crew member there Jim I have a right to call at least ten or whatever but %HESITATION means you to hook up I'm fine with losing her as a crew member as if that many if not well let's say it's %HESITATION Scott he likes her I'm gonna listen officer well one of the things that makes coca crop as a captain is that he is all of the nineteen sixties so yeah perhaps we can forgive media where it is that we can ask for is it just for it was %HESITATION but none the less as the captain of the thing which is supposed to do stuff office mostly military vessel he will just walk into trucks he's much too passive as a diplomat he's awful he's sometimes go to technology stuff that was that impossible to transmit the Romulans which was almost certainly an allusion to one of the second World War I submarine films where it's a destroyer against Severino think it's the enemy below this question is kind of a case is doing awesome okay so do this very particular thing as the captain of this thing which is nice for K. military frigates or battleship okay but you know as a politician is diplomat as someone who have you just need to reason with our people basically %HESITATION for sept the card Janeway Cisco Seru pike archer thank comments from your listeners might well persuade you thought on completely wrong says because my fear for it I think I think he has to deal with very different things from the others because he's not traveling Arango in Polk and he's on this space station with the very tricky diplomatic mission he's in the middle of a very precarious peace that could disrupt at any moment I think of him as somebody he is doing a tremendous amount of managing people he's also a single parent his wife has been lost apple three five nine the board at top which we hear about it and the best of both worlds the episode she mentioned her the card becomes a key shifts off the board he has a very strained relationship with Starfleet because of thoughts you know it's interesting even Patrick shared this and the pilot of the S. nine and hands over basically it's it's hard to have stepped to the handover with Cisco and give him not commission of becoming the commander of the space nine and that's very difficult you know so from the very get go he's already got this strand relationship of Starfleet and he sees it for what it is he C. sepulchre space of this organization that he loves and wants to take a while for so I think the complexity succumb a Cisco and what we end up finding items by his own origins or his his mom was a whim how alien I'm not the one already and it sounds about it's sounds rather tentatively yeah but now it is a known for dimensional not sure beings who live in the worm hole that can't see only stable wormhole that I find on it thanks they also question with the camera quadrant and dots hi the dominion get access because they're from the gamma quadrant outside they get access to the alpha quadrant and these are called the profits by the Turin's they think these are their guards so there's a whole religion based arrived these aliens but it all turned site that his destiny is caught up with these aliens because he's actually off them you know he's actually a high bridge they went to markets do something like go back in time and phone over him so that he would be around a specific point to save them from these enemy wormhole aliens called power right yeah that account of these fallen angel figures I don't think that Cisco in becoming the the emissary of the prophets from from the very first to process I don't think I'm becoming not figured that he becomes religious not park but he does very light on that in the seven series he starts to experience these moments of artists certainty that X. and Y. gonna happen and they they don't come from and messages from the web how late is he basically just becomes this person of religious conviction and I was deemed by the series of that point to be a good thing setting of that stuff aside because I think about stuff I'm not so so well done but others are not I think he praised himself as a captain your honor as a commander you know because he's a commander for the first two or three seasons or something that's a promotion I think in season four maybe I'm not sure all right the right the halfway point he gets discretion to captain I think he shows real leadership and a lot of ways and he is a leader he is prepared to learn I'm prepared to listen to his staff he always has good advice for people he's very centered you know when that when that profit stuff isn't happening he's Larry centers I think unless the first you know I might reconsider putting Jiang Wei but I have a sister because both J. Moran Cisco who they have to create crews out of two distinct groups the card is not to do that so he doesn't have to do that hi this is enough to do that he's gone they've all got started each group throws Jan was got a Starfleet crew plus a bunch of marquee how many it's about twenty five there and that we don't meet them already it's just their designated by the different paths when they take on the Starfleet uniforms I think they do that to your yeah I think they should have been a couple of episodes of conflicts but then because it's episodic they just want them in the uniforms as soon as possible and I we have a denture just our fate to participate but if it was more of a serialized saying I think they may hold off and they would explore that complex I'm not difficulty with dissemination a bit more nine they did a few later episodes where they did it time travel stuff back to whenever conflicts as if they had gone and how we we skipped over back to great right so yeah J. why does have to soldier together goes to cruise but what she does very quickly she wins over to kind of tie and then he does that work of soldiering them together to vote because it takes a certain general doesn't do much at work so there's a bit of a challenge that but with Cisco he has to so that together federation Starfleet underpaid Jordan creek including major Karen Rees who initially he's quite willing to kick since because the Stacia she does not want the Starfleet to be back home until she wants this to now be able to complete the project on stage yeah he is a huge amount of work to do to get house but also I mean I would say that %HESITATION pike does how fortunate again trust because he's taken over from Gabriel Lorca hello to Jason Isaacs we find that answer %HESITATION you could not yes he's been the captain of discovery for the first season but we find out that he's actually from the mirror universe and something pulls him over to the prime universe supposed prime Lorca over to the mirror universe he was probably killed immediately because he was being sought out for execution because he was treasonous so pike as happened to pick up a crazy thought as for the distrust and he basically prepare sock crazy to become the co he said if they come and they become a family and Siri need Sam and then waste last discovery at a point where Michael has been promoted to captain and she spoke to the them as captain so we can't judge Burnham yet as a captain thanks we've been on the list because she's captain we can't speak to that yet I'm because it's quite unique because there are only a few episodes and as we record this and we haven't seen any of those she's come under the discovery for a base of one episode when she was first officer in pike was off doing yeah but yeah but we've only ever seen her disobeying orders Browning often can't April causing a war one of those things where she just disobeys an order and goes off and does our admission lead story with us first officer for that going rogue logic is I'm gonna ask for forgiveness and not for permission yeah no within a known military organizations that's the kind of sometimes applicable principle but I don't think that really works within the thing that is Starfleet which is now part of the lecture part science yeah because I think there are ways to show %HESITATION that click I'm sure I'm right about this again trusts but there is a bit of a higher because I think this comes up in Voyager quite a bit where they have to say that this is not a democracy I'm the top ten I make decisions to Sashi quite imperialistic in a way where it's not pay to committee I mean they they have these committee meetings with officers but I feel like certain in Voyager there's only a certain amount of crazy and that number dwindles quite a bit because people die and they don't get replaced very often they set off with a hundred and seventy or some sun hello to them die then they absorb that Mickey curry and then people die and they absorb a few people here and there look at something like four crew members from the of the ship yeah that's got sucked into the delta quadrant a little bit off to them hello there for last mile before because they've already traveled quite a bit and I think it's already been in there for ten years or some sun but it's rare that they get more people off the shores of so they actually today's quite a lot of people as time goes on and so there should be a hundred and something else %HESITATION and you think surely they have some sort of system where they can have a vote they could have a forum and voice opinions because you know all these big decisions cake at manta there's not one where they find that planet thirty sevens where a bunch of people from nineteen thirty seven got pulled in by their caretakers are right because I don't think we've given that she's Voyager sets off after the maquis ship into the pipelines and the bad times but like the Bermuda triangle SPS they get pulled across the galaxy something like seventy thousand light years away from anywhere and it means that I'll take them at least seventy years to get back at the highest work they can day which obviously isn't sustainable either and so they have this prospect of becoming a yeah generational checked that they're trying to get home and they're going to go looking for a worm holes and other ways other technologies because they might find civilizations even more advanced in them and stuff like that they come across this planet with their human inhabitants and it turns out these people within that this caretaker has been pulling stuff for many many years she many centuries through once again it wasn't a caretaker who got thirty seconds I think they were abducted and taken on a flying saucer and taken by actually where %HESITATION Elaine up six days I can't remember it from the first C. as no I think it's the state's second season opener but it was me and to be part of the first season it was one of those consider season was cut short so the raptors who's ever actually produced for that season but they were paid and the second season yeah that was one of them the thirty sevens so they have Amelia Earhart that's how I may suggest that her disappearance was that she was kicked off on this on the planet and so some of them have been cryogenically frozen so she's one of these papers cryogenically frozen so she spend and preservation %HESITATION Simon they wake her up and she's she's a life again and there's this whole civilization of humans descended from these people from nineteen thirty seven and there's this option for the crazy if anybody wants to just settle somewhere because there's a human civilization they can do that and none of them volunteered to do that none of them volunteered to say they'll go off back on the Voyager this is seen in the episode where January says whoever wants to stay on this planet report to the Chicago by two at this particular time is a walking talking with her jacuzzi going down there to see who's turned up and she opens the door and there's no one that when I saw that I just thought it would be the funniest thing to have one person say poked her head out from between two piles of big dangerous boxes or something I just got out yes captain what can I do for you I was just doing a stock take what you doing in cargo bay two okay that might not see nothing is quite important because she says to the crew I'm giving you a choice yeah they make a choice and that's about it for the crew making choices that I have and I never got a option ever again so anything they like to settle here because there's ones where Harry has terrible lock way slough in this series and he never gets promoted and he's never done a proven himself and he's always just an ensign for seven years that we follow it's not all over the price never done see if in the mall and the hassle is terrible luck with relationships but there is one where he and another really and they really property fall enough and they have a really lovely fun relationship that you know her culture really ally her permit her minutes terribly heartbreaking in its first because her species they really combine with each other and it's an even deeper heart break when they're pulled apart from each other and it just feels like he should have already had the option to the stay with her mixtape up early episode with the thirty seven I think it's quite symbolic for the whole of their series that is Voyager because in a situation where it might seem reasonable to give people a choice sometimes they go through the motions of giving everyone a choice not to make a choice yeah that's one of the fundamental elements of democracy is that you say drive one every four years or so he said right now we giving you the choice for the duration of the holding the next parliamentary terms or whatever we're giving you the choice to not to make a choice so as long as you have that choice making ritual once every four years you don't agree that you're not going to be the one who makes any of the choices during the next four years and that seems to be what they do in the thirty sevens in absolute gorgeous %HESITATION and it's called the thirty seconds yeah well it's just a matter of going we're gonna acknowledge that our situation is somewhat dictatorial but it's fine because it's underpinned by the choice by the election what's not to make any choices and that is actually quite common to all of the Star Trek series they're they're going right we're really big of democracy but this particular organization isn't one this organization Starfleet that works for the big democratic organization that is federation it isn't one and it's dictatorial and that has to be falling with everyone because this is how we keep the federation tax and so it's constantly a common tree on what one has to do to hold democracy which is have these organizations at the barricades the non democratic organizations protecting civilians so inevitably as you're playing out that internal negotiation of how reasonable that situation is you're going to have situations where I left tenant comes into conflict with the commander about the commander's decision or will the entire crew comes into contact with the captain about captions decision was very early episode where of TNG where the card is kidnapped and is replaced with this close the clone gets the crew to just fly closer and closer closer to a star such that the radiation schedule appointments going to kill everyone and the question is that the plan was to find out is the idea must find out as we say no to captain is doing the wrong thing really I need any other situation the office is not the case the card can be trusted even when it definitely appears I would like to be doing the wrong thing he can be trusted to actually do the right thing but on that particular occasion no they do meet me in and that's a that's a resistance to it takes a toll authority when it doesn't have that trust factor shot one where writer has heightened or didn't meet new S. this is Carissa Pegasus for it with his previous captain any regrets it and he regretted it because they were right on the captain's wrong isn't it that they don't need me but they just refuse to follow any orders thank you so it's I think they disagree so fundamentally you as well he's ordering them to J. captains to commercial Crofton or some things were going to have to go by now I thought well it's not one where they are that also last episode of enterprise someone they intersect that with they have it so that it's Graham principal recordings that right because Watson on his way to go investigate and he knows what happened to it Choi is trying to help conceal him three this decision to tell Picard you know he's watching this holo program of the last days of the original enterprise as sort of inspiration and it's quite more of it actually that's really weird and they make it into a game which I think in a way it opens it up to be totally wrapped cons because I thought the whole program that's two hundred years that are fine you can crack on that the actors of all ages of course but they could do voice stuff they can see animation or bodies series I mean that would be so great for them to do the last three seasons and audio format or animated format would be for aliens that was something which way your my appetites have been thoroughly west yeah for the culminating founding of the federation yeah that would be home in the enterprise and they kept doing cool forwards to it by having a horse's name at the time travel from where he would come back and say torture right someone's messing with the timeline yeah I need you to fix these things there is this temporal Cold War going on and people keep changing it so that the federation doesn't get found it it's becoming very clear that your radiance to mental case he has to find %HESITATION really upset because it becomes clear as Archie does his thing that he he stops them Dorian's and the falcons fighting so all this and smoothing over relations that way friends he stopped them Dorians in the tower right fighting this is breathing are licensed so with this is the incremental moving towards I have found the federation the gonna do this and then towards the end of season four there's the beginning of these negotiations to sign this treaty which might be one of the first proton documents of the federation is not the federation yet and then running to the end of season four arches that drags forwards in time one more time by this time traveling together you've basically done everything you're going to do guessing the federation to happen this is going to happen in three years look it's you it's a big ceremony founding the federation well done I'm you and I felt sorry wrong a story arc leading up to the front because they're supposed to be there or more by several millions of solace in there before then as in there there's a big war that's meant to happen and that's partly high they'll come together you make me wish I wasn't so I could look at this stuff yeah I haven't I think that's something to do that because in TNG the first time the Romulans around that nobody's seen the Romulans four hundred years none there stop appearance I have an original series and there is a brush with them and I'm surprised but they're never seen because it's already one night and they have to deal with one of their minds the cats after not something that takes into REITs lag and also remotely piloted ship yeah the number of positions there's just a %HESITATION brushing with them so they are there but they're very insular but I think they're supposed to be some sort of fake war that happens and then the federation as party find it I'd have thought coalition come to gather a solid ice defends themselves and then the federation is built on those for planets that come together some something like that I was supposed to all happen that was supposed to play ball what happened in the last three seasons but they never called to get me as we know it sh since you wanna have gone right TNG DS nine version number and then we've got %HESITATION we've got a couple can finally bite the bullet watch division series for about the first day to nine episodes of the original series it's not Star Trek yeah does it recognize it even though it's it's had its second pilot she's got shocked and ran it it's become rebooted just this thing in which they all kind of that recognizable for the first few episodes the uniforms on the right color they keep calling them weapons lasers rather than phases the thing they work for isn't cold Starfleet I think at one point is called the United earth space probation C. as a callback to that much later on I think and start the machine pictures come back to that no no this voice homes things and listen to it okay kind of like in the corner for short will play the thing that they represent isn't called the federation early on it's called you the United earth so there is some sense that there's no such thing as nations left under federation hasn't come about yet it really takes until about the beginning of season two of the business services for Star Trek as we would recognize the thing that's constantly being paid hommage to buy T. I. G. all the way up to discovery for that to come about for the whole we are the federation would not going to sacrifice a federation principles that just doesn't exist from almost the whole of the first season of the original series and United are says reject very frying UP and enterprise this is really something that's happened in the in the last few years for them some sun that is quite integral to the enterprise is what's established in the film first contact sat from Cochran developing work capability yeah first contact its name checked again and again and again and again in enterprise yes this fundamental event including in the mirror universe as its that's it establishes the whole of the Merion ever since we've seen those in Merion of our stuff up until that point but it what happens in enterprise and it isn't a case of they get flung over shared or anything it just shows us that seem crazy in the mirror universe and the credits change they go dark the same chains removed which was a blessing but it goes by and it uses footage from the film and three does it entice them as saffron Cochran rather than shaking hands with civil can say come to visit he M. toxin and they over on their second stellar technology and so then it just goes three for this alternate history and obviously changing point so all of human history until then it's basically the same but they lean into that war side of them and this happens in something a bit twenty sixty six after a third World War after several for you so in the prime universe's late see the emergence of that what would the Cumming United arse so enterprise starts in twenty one fifty one and they operate under the United Artists whatever the nighter star fleet or whatever it is but it's quite a the first few episodes of enterprise make it clear that during that century between Zach from courtroom encounter between first contact with Vulcans and the big events price the falcons have been helping but also doing a whole lot of going no we're not going to give you that technology we have to see whether you're ready for it yeah seven doing quite a lot of sitting back and going yeah they're upstairs and see if see what they develop by themselves and I think that really gets to the dating into this a bit more as well I think in discovery quite suddenly with Spock because it turns out that Michael Burnham is the adopted sister of Spock her parents are killed and she is raised by Sarachan Amanda Spock's parents and so she is reduced as the older sister of Spock and then they do the whole arc that ends up explaining why he is never mentioned her her existence is classified in all of this but with Spock they establish and then deeper eight sat happen after discovery spends long off to the future the ones who are left behind said pike and Spock they have to be deeper if someone happened and Spock talks about eight what will the com familiar chess is the prime directive where they shouldn't interfere with pre war civilizations Shingo poke and basically stopped %HESITATION and poking at things before people are at eight if they can't come up to space to meet us we don't go dine involved in them you know this alien abductions stuff lots so that's why the Vulcans before him hi I'm back and they don't get involved and they humans see this with resentment because I think what you could have just given us says she could have just helped us but the vocals are very measured they say no we need to see you develop this for yourselves and build the maturity for yourselves and show us that you can be right there and the galaxy it's not what you think it is and then it turns eighteen extent they're right I mean it feels like overbearing parenting the antagonism between humans and Vulcans and an enterprise's news because this constant refrain from all the way from the original series through first contact up to the end of origins constant refrain is that humans and Vulcans are brothers they are not the initial making friends from another planet that meant that the federation could happen where's you know enterprise this antagonism is quite yet but it shows again the idea that it's a hard road to get to that level of trust in law except it's actually quite fitting from the he says your politics conflict I like Thai they did that high they wrote that what we see in first contact as the origin for I determined empire rises and the merry universe I think that was really clever and I we have all it's my favorite thing about the whole thing I think it's merry universe and I'd love to have seen hi there would have developed that more in the %HESITATION series because at first so she would have rocks my world is shared think that she's high recaps Giorgio as the emperor so let's be clear about what happens at the end of the mirror universe to process all of enterprise is that the enterprise crew get hold of a starship that's been from there from the prime universe from the future of the prime universe and it's the defiant less ETS and the original series we have a call to this yet but we are going to get to and they've done something with something that happened in the original series the ship just disappears asserts the original service different which is a starship like the enterprise not the Deep Space Nine before him the enterprise crew in enterprise dark universe form sort Merion bus when they get a hold of the starship that's much much faster than anything that everyone at the school well it sure takes it to us planning to take over as I'm and run the last minute how she cites %HESITATION kills has she some planned all along KMG Texas as emperor and that's it it's over and I'm sorry yeah we'll get back to the prime universe yeah it is a fantastic way to Homer universe thing we haven't seen the original series founding of the man as a person we will the whole mirror universe thing goes the way that the federation its rates US relationship with other planets is definitely good even though it's vegetarian space socialism even though it's the United Nations even though it's having to work together the alternative which is a human empire human space empire is out and it's basically of all humans for psychopaths if all humans have no capacity for empathy and roll murderous creators and it was not just how the people outside the empire includes life why it's healthy humans because everyone's constantly having to fear from don't know he's gonna kill you here what would they do with the emperor Georgia carrots and discovery is great because they have to have her go to the prime universe learn a few things and then go back into the other system vision but you know she goes back to yeah you don't know where she's been sent to you and Chico state the porcelain portal which is guarded by the guardian offer or if a doctor is a bit like a setup for a spin off series just well done if you made it to the hands of all thoughts and may not come as a shock but there is another hour long recording that is going to release for by PT patrons and of next week so you don't miss size or other such bonus content sign up at the PI P. A. T. T. here for two pints fifty a month if you're in the U. K. or quicker than if you're elsewhere at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures there's also a point ten minutes if I takes a billable to our behind the scenes supporters have five pints in months and for that you get access to the right takes reveals %HESITATION %HESITATION we have them fill city recordings of episodes all of that again is by S. P. Treon dot com forward slash eight feet cultures please see techconnect these regular payments have been helping me to gradually upgrade my equipment which has led to a noticeable improvements and the sign quality and recording capabilities for the podcast my patrons cumulative funds have also paid for an upgrade to the podcasts websites and a man with his night at audio visual cultures dot com so if you can I would so appreciate you joining the team I really would like to thank my teacher and says about like my board of trustees or something I always run stuff past everybody before I make decisions so it be great to have you on board and if you can't help but financially but you really want to do some things please do share the podcast with people you know I really really appreciate people doing this some people like there are doing it and I noticed that and I love it and I'm so so grateful and it really is a massive help because I think the people in our lives really take notice of our recommendations so if you tell a friend I think you'd really got some so and I have a sense of this they might actually listen and that would be a huge help for us so let's shop but if you could say that so well done for getting through this again and I will catch you next time

Audiovisual Cultures episode 82 – Film and Video Production with Justin McAleece automated transcript

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this is audiovisual cultures the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and cultural production with me paula blair visit forward slash av cultures to find out more and to join the pod i am really pleased to be joined across the atlantic and very far across the whole continent by justin mcelis hello justin how are you i’m doing excellent how are you today i’m good thank you you’re going to talk to us about your work in directing and cinematography is that right yeah absolutely there’s quite a lot of areas we can get into it’d be interesting to think about the relationship or maybe the differences between working for yourself and being someone for hire in film and television and you work across quite a lot of media don’t you yeah exactly there’s a lot of different types of videos we do for a lot of different types of clients and sometimes it’s we are the client so yeah just like you’re saying depending on who’s your boss there’s a variety of reasons you would want it to be one way or the other the sorts of work that you do we’re talking music videos commercials for television feature-length films and you work across different genres i’ve seen you you’ve done some documentary and mockumentary yeah exactly and then um i would add to that uh a lot of what we do is corporate video production so that’s a lot of that’s talking heads you know we go to a company and they have some new information about some new products or new things that they’re moving into different sectors within their company that sort of thing and we we talk to them and do interviews and b-roll so a lot of what we do ends up being that which is great because they have a story to tell and we can get it out there and those oftentimes you know for anyone who’s looking to go into video production i would never ignore that because they have some money to spend they know what they want they’re generally not what would you say everything’s not writing on that one video whereas when you do say like a local commercial for a company that’s a huge deal to them and then they you’re much more worried that they’re gonna get every dime out of it whereas if you’re working for a fortune 500 company and they’re putting together a video that’s just one of many things that they’re gonna do and so there’s a little less pressure to guarantee things that you can’t really guarantee when you’re talking about local commercials it’s a little bit of a different situation in that regard gosh that’s really interesting yes i don’t think i’ve ever spoken to somebody who makes corporate videos and these would be something that would be contained within the company is that right yeah some are internal some are external it sort of depends what it is a lot of things we’re doing these days because the covate is internal to whereas we are making something just to show to all the shareholders or all the employees they’re all at a company meeting that they would normally have in person but now they’re not doing that so that’s a lot of what it has been recently just this year but in general it’s forward-facing it’s out on youtube on their web page there are a lot of them are explainer videos you know to where a sales person takes it out or would you mail it to people and they’re like well what do you do and we’re like well here’s a three minute video showing you exactly what we do so we specialize in that and i think that’s pretty useful do you think that sort of format is very different in production from the other kinds of work that you do i think that there are parallels in just about everything we do i you get to take more artistic license certainly on say a music video or your own short film where you do anything you want but you know that’s the double-edged sword of anything creative is when you get all the ability to do whatever you want then it is much harder to make a decision you get that option paralysis which tends to be an issue whereas when you’re working with a client or let’s say you have an agency and then you’re working with a video production company inside of that agency and then they have a client then a lot of the decisions are already made for you in sort of a freeing sort of way it’s the opposite of what you would think sometimes it’s a little bit counterintuitive you know they’ve already decided what’s gonna happen how it’s gonna happen who the people are what the props are all that stuff you get to go in there and optimize that so you know exactly what your sandbox is whereas when you’re making something for yourself who knows what the sandbox could be and so it gets a little overwhelming at times i think there are definitely good things about both or any of the different ways you know within that that you could be able to do work and do good work i imagine that variety really keeps things interesting you wouldn’t get bored easily yeah it helps me because it is a bit taxing to be able to do all your own stuff because then there’s no one on the line but you and you know and you have to do soup to nuts on everything and then you just get tired at the end of the day and there’s a lot more chance for them uh what do you want to say maybe imposter syndrome or or thinking like what am i even doing here this sucks and no one’s gonna see this for a while this is a mess you know whereas if you’re doing it for someone else then after every shot they’re like oh that was good let’s move on to the next one you’re like good accomplished i did it something’s great we can move on you know it’s just a different idea yeah it’d be good to talk about your your work involved with music because you do make a lot of music videos and you’ve made music documentaries um would you be happy to talk us through some of that please and maybe similarities and differences and maybe working with musicians and collaboration yeah absolutely music videos are fun because all bets are off in a lot of ways you have a lot more room for creativity they also often are longer days or more complicated days you’re trying to get trying to fit more things into less time a lot of times sometimes you’re dealing with people who have never done a video before so this might be the first time that an artist is venturing into this which can get a little complicated and they have something in their mind that might not actually pan out on screen you’re also dealing with the fact that you want to do something original and what do you want to say you want to break the mold with these people but you also can’t really do that because you have to fit within the certain criteria of what they think a music video should be and a lot of times a lot of music in general is people finally getting to the point where they could produce the thing that they liked 10 years ago that’s the reason a lot of music feels like you may have heard it before just because you a lot of people grow up liking songs or you know in when they were 20 or whatever they had their favorite band and then 30 and then 10 years later maybe they were able to actually make that same music so you end up in a situation where not only are they producing music that is somewhat similar maybe their own twist on it of something that had come before but they also probably want the video of the thing that they had seen at the time but just slightly updated so there’s some dynamics at play there that are a little complicated because you want to do something brand new but you also want to do something that harkens back to what that music is to the rest of the people who would be listening to that song so you have a there’s a lot of requirements in in making a music video to make it fresh but classical you know you’re always arguing with yourself between those two things and there’s a lot of things you can do visually to get those accomplished um you’re also trying to get the artists themselves front and center you know having a very what you would say a very concept-y video i don’t know if you’ve ever seen a tool video for instance but you don’t really see tool the band in any of the tool videos and it’s all this claymation and all this other stuff that may work for certain bands but it’s not going to work for a lot of them who just this might be their only time to get in front of the camera so you’re beholden to a lot of things while making a music video that you wouldn’t maybe think that you were you’re like well just go do this thing it’ll be easy and it’s it’s a little more complicated than that moving from those short form types of films and videos to something longer form so the likes of music documentaries and you’ve made one um the art of organized noise is that right yeah exactly so i wasn’t the director on that i was the i was one of the cinematographers but that was a lot of fun we got to do a lot in a very short amount of time which was great because documentaries can often consume a lot of time but we were able to knock out a bunch of interviews we ended up shooting about half of it maybe more than that of the final documentary in a short amount of time which was great and we met some famous people and we heard some just really interesting stories something that i didn’t understand how that part of the business worked i didn’t know the stories behind any of those songs you know there’s a couple very famous songs certainly outcast the rap group out of the dirty south out of georgia and atlanta they’re a big part of that story the first song that they did was the song waterfalls by tlc that was their first one that hit big so everyone sort of knows that song yeah and it was a great place to be they have this place called the dungeon and it was just pretty fascinating so working on something like that you know we go in there and we try to get as much as we can we try to make it look to have a certain vibe throughout so we picked some gels you know to get a little technical we like we fell into some specific colors that we wanted that stuff to be and made it a little moodier than i would normally shoot maybe and had it more shadowy more saturated more punchy than some things we end up doing and you know that looks totally different than a commercial you would put on tv but you try to get some gravity out of the out of the visuals and out of the cinematography that you’re putting into it and hopefully that connects with the viewer and it feels maybe something like that they had seen before out of another band or group or rap artist that they had seen tour they can be like oh i get it this is like the same level if not bigger than that like this makes sense to me i understand what i’m watching and why i’m watching it that’s what you’re always trying to do you’re trying to put people in a place and connect with something that they a shared experience previously and then twist it on its head a little bit that’s sort of the role of a storyteller remind them of something that they already are familiar with so that you can pull it take it back twist it and give it back to them to where they feel like it’s new do you find that if you’re working as a cinematographer there’s a difference between working in fiction or something more structured and planned any differences between that and a documentary where you’re filming really in the moment and it’s a live event that you’re capturing do you think there are differences or is it you do what you’re told to do or how much license do you have typically we have a decent amount of license i would say you know in terms of how it’s lit and what the overall approach is a lot of that’s being decided ahead of time though hopefully when you get on set a lot of your decisions are already made because you’ve made them with the producer the director the writer whoever happens to be and you already know what you’re trying to accomplish and i mean really that’s what it comes down to it’s not like oh what do i want to do in this situation that’s like a very fourth tier sort of concept you want to be like what serves the story what will help the director accomplish the most amount of information in the least amount of time and really that’s what you’re trying to do david fincher american director has a quote you know like basically my job as a director is deciding what information to give out when and that’s really what directing is about and by proxy that’s what cinematography is about is putting people with a sense of what the context is what the vital information about a frame is and where to lead their eye and how to feel about it subconsciously without even attempting to tell them why they feel about a certain way with the actors or the dialogue or the action or any of that stuff just like you know one second in you’re like oh i get what this is you know so that’s really what you’re attempting to do in all cases i don’t know if i answered your question exactly but you know that that’s our job no that’s really useful i think you have been working on projects quite recently haven’t you are you seeing any real differences in the current climate with things i mean i don’t know how exactly how things are with you you’re in california is that right yeah in the uk we’re on quite a major lock line at the moment with kovitz i don’t know how things are we we hear not great things about the us but um but all the states are different i think so yeah what’s going on no they definitely get to choose their own path in a lot of ways we are somewhat locked down you know a lot of the things are still not open a lot of businesses it is not life as usual by any stretch of the imagination but what we’re able to do is go out and shoot with small crews with masks with taking precautions making sure that we got antibacterial stuff standing by you know once we do that we’re in decent shape i haven’t been on any sets where anyone’s been sick and i haven’t heard of anyone being sick related to those sets that i’ve had anything to do with so we we have a 100 track record as far as i can tell so far which is pretty great and yeah as long as you’re careful as long as you’re wearing your mask as long as you’re being aware of all the criteria then i think it’s okay we’ve definitely been doing other stuff than we normally would we’ve done a bit more live stuff live switching between multiple cameras we’ve done more like uh like i was saying the ceo comes on he does a stand-up we’re gonna do on something on thursday tomorrow of uh someone you know being there and just talking to the rest of the company basically and so the types of things we’ve shot has changed a bit and we’re not doing any big movies that either were some things that we had planned on doing that we can’t do yet but we we should be engaged in one of those in uh february march that i’m very much looking forward to so we’ll see as the timing changes how that all develops but yeah it’s a weird world out there could i ask you as well about your production company it’s blair media that’s right just uh a bit of background about how you go about establishing such a company and what people’s roles are that sort of thing sure yeah so we’ve been blur media for about 15 years now it’s been quite a while we 2005 2004 somewhere in there we started it is a lot of work to keep a video production company going especially at first it gets easier as it goes along i think as with most things it’s important you know you got to think of it as a normal startup of anything it’s like you have to put in a ton of time to do everything you can do it yourself a lot of times you know you don’t get to hire other editors or other people doing data like one thing that has changed over my time is not having to worry about all the hard drive stuff as much as i used to because i have other people doing that so having someone maybe not solely focused on that but being able to make sure that all that stuff is getting done properly saves me from having to be there every sunday night until 2 a.m worried about where all the data is and what hard drives it’s on and all these other things so that’s definitely in video production when you’re producing just an incredible amount of data that’s something to be aware of much like it is to be aware of your taxes and your accounting stuff you know those are things that i’m not that’s not my job per se but i have to worry about it as a small business owner and so getting people from the start and getting that ironed out as much as possible from the start i think we made some mistakes here and there of not maybe it’s just one of those things you could put on the back burner like we have a shoot we have a shoe we have a shoe we have shoot six months down the line you’re like oh we should have been worried about this thing a little bit more and making sure that we had our priorities straight into terms of that but it’s always a push pull you know you’re trying to make a buck so that you can pay the man so you can pay out your people so that you can give them more money and there are a lot of contingencies there that all have to fall in place simultaneously to have a successful company so you’re always fighting for that it’s a long road but i think once you establish it well enough then it does sort of become self-perpetuating to an extent which is great good great stuff it’d be really great now to turn to the really big project that you’ve had for a while of your own brick madness and to talk a bit about your film i mean so you’ve done so much work where you’re working for other people but is it right that this is really your baby this one yeah definitely my baby along with the some of my other friends and family but yeah 2009 we’re on the set of another movie we were thinking that we really wanted to do one of our own things in our inaudible hubris we’re saying that like hey this should be easy we’ll get this done in a few weeks we’ll show everyone else how easy it is and simple it’s going to be to make a feature film and that was 11 years ago and so here we are with the movie it has finally been distributed we entered into pre-sales a couple weeks ago december 22nd it will be on amazon and so really excited about that shortly thereafter it will be on the other assorted s foreign all the other stuff that you would normally find movies on it’ll be in a bunch of those places so we’re looking forward to that it’s a comedy it’s a 99 minute comedy about a national lego tournament in our world we call them bricks so it’s a mockumentary it’s a fake documentary and we had a just an incredible fun time doing it i think it shows up on screen i think the ebullience of our participation in it with my friends and family i think i really got something out of it i hope they feel the same way and we’ve really heard from other people watching like it feels like a documentary i did another podcast a couple weeks ago and one of the guys there’s two hosts on and he called up the other host after watching part of the movie and he’s like he was canadian he’s like this is a real this is an actual documentary right the other guy’s like no no it’s a fake documentary it’s all made up and he’s like my mind is bl nerd my head’s bleeding dude there’s no way this has to be a real thing he’s like no it’s all made up no no way so i was like that’s cool i’m really glad that they got that sort of um impression out of it that it could have been real that it could have been you know actual people doing these actual quirky weird things with their life i’m real proud of that and i’ve heard that before it’s fun it’s entertaining and we put a lot of time into it so we want people out there to watch it and enjoy it i think it’s you know i stand fully behind it and i’m like no this is a fun movie not just because i made it but i think i would like it regardless so there’s that yeah you made something that you want to watch yourself yeah tarantino said that you know that someone asked him like what’s your favorite movie and he said the one i just made that’s why i made it so i think there’s a little bit of a little bit of wisdom in in that and like why would you be making something that you didn’t want to see you know that seems stupid that’s not saying it’s the best that’s just saying it’s my favorite i think that’s a fun place to be at least recently there’s been a documentary series on netflix about the history of gaming i can’t remember what it’s called now but um it’s really really good there are episodes where the arcades got really popular and there are these massive tournaments and it reminded me of that actually the footage that they showed of that of all these kids piling into these venues to start playing arcade games in tournaments yeah i’ve i haven’t clicked on that i have a nasty habit of not wanting to see anyone do what i’m doing before i’m fully done with it that sort of thing and i get a lot of uh the resentment rages in me when i’m like oh man my thing’s not done yet but this thing’s even better ah screw you guys so sometimes i don’t watch stuff like that i try to watch stuff that’s like totally different from what i’m doing but yeah that’s such as the life of an artist or maybe it’s just me i don’t know but it’s always rough to see your babies being reared by other people other parents i guess is what it is but yeah i know about that show i definitely i think i clicked on it for about 30 seconds one time i was like oh this looks cool i’ll watch that later it’s a good one but yeah this tournament’s really um reminded me of that and it’s interesting because that was really new technology that they’re yeah and it’s archival um footage whereas with bricks and you’re dealing with lego you know this is something that’s been around for decades now and the enthusiasm of that and the characters and the hubris and you know the excitement and the it’s just fun you know they’re they’re into it it’s their own thing they love being a part of it and it’s their whole world to them i think anytime you can take you can dissect life and really find something that you feel like is your world and you’re a part of it and you’re meant to be there and you can participate in it without fear of reprisal from anyone around you i like that’s just a great thing and so you know the idea of nerd or geek or you know whatever that happens to be it’s like that’s such a silly concept in a lot of ways and we try to sort of dispel that stuff within it and get to the heart of what people like and why they like it and furthermore like this is just an art form it’s just an art form like anything else like painting or guitar you know learning to write music or learning to write a story like it’s all those are all various forms of expressing your soul through a medium um hopefully amy that’s the transcendent version of it and this is the exact same thing they just happen to be using a quote unquote toy but then you’re like well that seems like a double whammy then that’s awesome not only do you get to be artistic and do something that allows you to express yourself but you get to use a toy while doing it and it’s fun and colorful and interesting and like inherently like you get to collect the things you love while doing the art while using a toilet like it’s a really pretty brilliant field and i think that speaks to why it’s so popular and it’s something that involves skill it never really thought of like it was being competitive before but and it’s not really like that’s sort of our spin on it you know i mean you have to have a winner and a loser in a movie like this but they do some competitions and obviously like they have these other tv shows that are out now fox did a whole series about it and so that’s a whole other twist on what we had done sort of before that obviously which another they’re like oh you’ve seen that show and i was like screw that show i don’t want to watch that show yet wait till the movie is out and i made a million dollars then maybe i’ll watch that show but yeah that’s how it is what about your creative decisions did you want to have it as something fly on the wall where it’s just observational and coming across as if they’re not aware of the camera or is it a kind of thing they’re very aware of the camera and they’re performing to it a bit you know how is that because i’ve just seen short clips of it so far yeah sure i mean we were trying to go you gotta remember we were shooting this around 2012 a lot of the footage came from 2011 2012 era so we were approaching it i would say in the way that the office is shot at least the american version of the office to where there’s some characters that play the camera occasionally so you know like how jim would look at the camera and he he is aware that is it is there but most of the time it’s just sort of happening and i think what we try to do we were really at least i was i mean really critically aware of the idea that like we don’t want to put a camera where it can’t be we don’t want to listen to a conversation that we wouldn’t be able to hear we don’t want to be in a place where as filmmakers we would have no reason to be there so we were definitely trying to fix that as we went along and there were a number of times where like it would be so easy in a real movie just to solve this thing right here like all you would have to do is show a shot of that because you have the god view and you can see anything you want while you’re in a movie it’ll be fine and we’re like yeah but you can’t why would anyone shoot that there’s no reason at this point in this plot for a camera to be getting footage of that so it doesn’t make any sense so we can’t do it so we have to figure out an alternate way so it was harder than we thought to not break our own rules that we set for ourselves but i hope that that had some effect on why exactly the guy i was talking about would be like yeah that’s a real thing right that’s a real documentary and that’s i think that’s how we accomplished that if indeed we did there are parts are there where somebody’s being interviewed as it’s if they’re being interviewed and they’re talking with the other guys yeah yeah yeah we have quite a bit of interviews and some of that is real some of that is scripted and a lot of that is made up on the spot but what we did was we went to actual lego conventions so we went to a thing called bricks by the bay in santa clara here in the silicon valley in california and we talked to people that were already there that other people knew that what they call adult fan of lego a falls so we would talk to them and be like hey guys all right so you understand how who a good guy is who a bad guy is how this world went down okay max grand he’s great but something weird happened to him in the past you don’t really know what it is but you know it revolves around this idea of gluing and that’s terrible and so talk to me a little bit about that and then so they just sort of make up their own story based on what that was and we’d sort of guide them in a little bit different direction so we weren’t putting words in their mouth so much as getting them to tell the story from their own point of view which was really great because then it felt real and organic as if they were coming up with it as if they had lived through it and that’s what we were trying to do was not only weave people that other people within the lego community would know but also uh have them reflect on it in their own manner i can’t write for that person i don’t know that person i don’t know what character that person is so we want them to be able to talk from their own their own ability to be themselves which i cannot emulate that was our intent and do you think this is quite a community of people and you know what kind of backgrounds do people come from and ages you are they very different all of them and they’re all united by this one thing you how does it work yeah i think that’s a pretty accurate way to say it i went to five different conventions in 2018 and talked to a bunch of people and had a whole bunch of people watch the movie at those situations and it was great and i would say that they’re what you would think that that culture would be in some ways meaning that they’re i would say they are not traditionally extroverted people they’re a little withdrawn here and there you certainly have your people that are out there and having fun and a little bit different but this is their world to get out of their shell because they are among friends and they are among people who are into the same thing they are i was sort of an outsider in that situation so i think i got to see both sides which was interesting they are they do vary in range i mean lego is an expensive hobby too so it’s not like you have a bunch of maybe say 15 year olds with cubic meters worth of lego that would um be able to fill a whole room and actually make these big great creations to show off you know so it’s an expensive hobby so you’re you’re talking about a lot of middle-aged people men and women we sort of lampooned that in the movie too by showing basically one main one main woman that’s one of the contenders in it and you know that’s the idea is like there’s only one and so she has this weird dynamic within our world and that’s not entirely true but there’s a little bit of that certainly in the lego world not a bad thing it just you know happens to be who who’s into what it’s a great community they’ve been really nice to me all the conventions that let me go out there was really great and the bricks fiesta i did a keynote speech at dallas super fun and yeah everyone’s been really great what was it that drew you to doing it by zygo in the first place you know i remember when i was a kid how much i loved it still do but you know i used to play a lot when i was 10 12 13 and i wanted we wanted something originally you know because you start out with these sort of broad strokes while you’re creating a story you’re like okay what are we going to do what’s this movie about well let’s do it about i want to do a mockumentary cool all right well what do you want to do about it you’re like well most mockumentaries have to have some some sort of competition in them great what do you know about that you could do about competitions and you’re like well we’re artistic but then we also want to have something that i have access to um i don’t know let’s do lego okay cool and so like that’s it’s like the first conversation and unless you realize that’s a total dead end you sort of created your world in a very um slap-dash manner that doesn’t mean it’s bad but that means that you’ve already put yourself into a corner and then you have to paint yourself out of it they have that metaphor makes sense but uh it came very early on and that was immediately i was like yup that’s what we want to do that’s going to work and it sounds like an idea that although it’s been a long time coming this is probably the year that we needed it oh man i hope so yeah you never know because um you know i was watching the lego movie when it came out and it’s a trip because the kid that i don’t have you seen the lego movie yes okay so if you remember at the end there’s will ferrell and then there’s this other kid and basically what was happening within the movie was in this kid’s world and will will in this kid’s world and whatever so that kid is jaden sand he’s in our movie he was in our movie before the lego movie while we were making brick madness he was in it he did a bunch of scenes he came back and was in the rest of his scenes basically and i was talking to his mom and she’s like oh yeah we were working on something that was also about bricks and i was like oh that’s cool and she didn’t tell me anymore that she was very coy about it because she has to be because she decides ndas and all that and um i was like oh neat cool some little thing whatever yeah i’m sure this would be much bigger and better and then you know i go to the theater and i was like son of a [ _ ] jayden look at this this is insane they spend like a billion dollars it’s so good this movie’s awesome and so i’m just like depressed and this sucks and like you know and that was a long time ago too and it still took a long time to come out so it’s like you never know hopefully in 2014 we were ahead of our time and it wasn’t gonna work and now it’s gonna work better you know you do what you can do to make what you can and you put it out when it happens we made some mistakes and couldn’t have got it done sooner i made some mistakes but um it is what it is you try to push through but it shows that you were on to something that there was some interest in the subject matter so that in a way if you want to take a positive out of it you were in the right direction i was a trendsetter without even knowing it and without actually setting any trends it’s just yeah you’re the silent voice in the voice yeah exactly well that’s my dad you know it’s you’re like well i just thought of something dad i just came up with something and you know when we were kids it would be like you don’t think of things they’re just floating around in the air you just grab them because ideas are just everywhere you didn’t come up with an idea that’s just there it’s in the ether i was like all right i guess then i grabbed an idea and he’s like all right is it a good one you’re like yeah he’s like okay do something with it so i think that’s what i’ve always sort of thought about ideas anyway and that’s the thing too you can’t be you want to love your ideas they say kill your babies i don’t i do and i don’t agree with that i think you have to dispel things that aren’t quite gonna work but you really want to but you also have to fight for the things that aren’t quite working yet but you really think will and so it goes both ways that’s the eternal struggle of creativity i think deciding what to jettison and deciding what to champion those are very difficult decisions because they are amorphous and who knows what’s right i mean it’s really refreshing to hear you talking about mistakes i mean how do we know that we’re getting things right if we don’t mess it up every now and again and have something to learn from you know and we should be there’s so much pressure i think on creatives to get it right and to be doing it really well all of the time but you need those learning curves don’t you and you need to be allowed to feel sometimes and failure is actually a good thing and we should be allowed i think to recognize that really learn from it yeah absolutely we did a um sort of a corporate video for a school and these are second third fourth fifth graders and they talked a lot about failure and how it was good and useful and an important part of the learning process and you know i think they were combating the concept that a lot of kids growing up today are like have never really like internalized what it felt to fail felt like to fail and because they had always been you know you you get a participation ribbon even if you get last and that makes it seem like no matter what you sort of won and i don’t that’s not how life works and so i think we’re preparing people for young people for a life that doesn’t exist when we’re just giving out participation ribbons no matter what and graduating from kindergarten suddenly you have a big party and i’m like i don’t why why are we having a party that’s for the parents that’s not for the kids that doesn’t even make sense and so i think yeah along that lines you you have to learn how to fail and how to just understand that what you did maybe wasn’t good enough like you tried and you gave it to your best effort and it wasn’t enough and so go back and try again and be stronger the next time around obviously it’s important to learn that fail forward that’s what they say and uh here in the silicon valley especially fail forward fail often fail early fail often and that way you can get them all out of the way justin are there any other areas of your practice that you would like to talk about today that we haven’t touched on yet what do people ask you questions about i mean do you get much feedback that sort of thing have you had previous guests that have touched on a topic but maybe not really dove into it to the level that you wanted we deal with quite a wide variety of things and i suppose what i try to do with every episode is to try and really drill down on things and to mine out as much information as we can to try and um because they try and have an educational focus to the podcast as well as this thing’s really interesting and it connects this other thing when i do get the chance to talk to practitioners in different media the things that they learn and there’s always something because i’m more from a theory background of studying film and i have a bit of practice experience but not really very much and so it’s just always really fascinating to hear how it really works in different areas different ways of working different ways of problem solving you know so it’s just great to just hear you talking about you know how do you get around certain problems how do you impose limitations on yourself so that you don’t meander off and it doesn’t make sense anymore it’s great to talk somebody who’s made documentary and mockumentary yeah totally and we have another documentary coming out and it’s called better so that’s happening in january and that’s um way different than brick madness it’s an actual real thing about very important subject diabetes so that’s diabetes in obesity which are run along the same path almost always that’s the biggest epidemic we’ve ever faced health-wise i mean it’s not a pandemic in the same way that corona is but it’s you know the biggest thing that’s happening especially in westernized societies so talking about that talking about the shame that comes along with having overweight talking about how people develop these understandings of what they’re supposed to be eating and why and how often times they’re misled and given totally faulty information you know that stuff’s really important to address in a way that then offers them real answers about what scientifically proven methods of eating are actually going to help you in the long run and so that’s really what we’re trying to do on that i was a director on that i did a whole bunch of interviews you know talked to four harvard doctors and a variety of other people and we just really wanted to drill down and understand exactly what was at the heart of that and offer answers we put everything in the movie that we possibly could about what to do not just what not to do and so we didn’t leave anything on the cutting room floor door like oh man this is we’ll save that for the sequel or we’ll keep that so that we could sell it to someone later or whatever it’s like my goal was just to give people answers and i really think that’s what we did furthermore that’s what art is about hopefully either asking profound questions or answering profound questions i mean like that’s your job and usually both yeah so with that idea of relaying information maybe we’re in very similar places in the uk and the us at the moment where we’ve got this idea of post truth you know how reliable is any of the information that we’re told and there’s so much pressure on people to be autonomous and take control of their own destinies their own lives their own eating habits and that sort of thing but while being sold things that are very bad for them on a constant lip and it’s really difficult to make certain decisions and then there’s socio-economic factors and all sorts of things going on so it’s really again a probably a really prescient time for something like that to be on the way yeah i hope so that one feels like that is the best possible time it could come out is like right now i’m i really think we’re hitting it while the iron is hot and so to speak brick madness i hope has that same sort of the same sort of legs under underneath it in terms of that but like there’s never been a better time to have a movie like better in my opinion a quick question for you like what’s a healthy food generally vegetables okay good yeah i mean that’s a good start yeah yeah and so we talk about that and it’s because it’s not you being able to you answered that more quickly than most people okay and i would say that quote-unquote vegetables you know like that’s such a wide variety of things and so we center our concept of vegetables and which ones are good specifically on non-starchy vegetables okay so i mean you can get fat by eating potatoes or just rice or just wheat you know those aren’t neces those are vegetables or grains at least but they fit within a certain category that just because they’re a vegetable doesn’t mean they’re great but there are vegetables that are the best thing you can eat essentially and so we dig down on that we talk about non-starchy vegetables nutrient-dense proteins whole food fats and low fructose fruits in a way that i think hopefully people can like identify those things and really understand like not just well i heard that this specific thing was really good for you and like what does that mean but be able to drill down and be like here’s exactly why this food would be better than that food and we try to outline that for people in a really useful manner going back to maybe storytelling in general what you were talking about with regards to uh you know misinformation and people having to draw their own conclusions and all that i think we’ve lost the ability to think critically and it’s not necessarily our fault like we’re beset by so many things that are trying to take our attention and trying to co-opt our understanding of of what we already knew and i think we’re definitely in a time in history that has never been more like that and some of that is political it’s people trying to convince us something that we knew since time immemorial was one way and they’re trying to say well because of these reasons it’s not that way it’s this way now and so there’s a lot of confusion there in my own personal politics i definitely grasp all right definitely um what would you say have to wage a continuous war against that misinformation but when you’re making a movie and when you’re the writer of a movie let’s say your job is to give enough information to the director the producer so that that person knows exactly what you were trying to accomplish and why but not how to feel about it not how to do their job so as when you’re writing a story you want to display the situation as accurately as possible so that the director can then say here’s how i want to tell that story to the audience but you don’t tell them exactly where to put the camera you don’t tell them exactly how to make the actor act or any of those things right because that’s the direction in the same way then the director takes that and says here’s how i want to show that to the audience because i don’t want to ever tell them how to think but i want to tell them what the situations are so that they can decide how to interpret it actually you would give that to the actor so you display that exact as appropriately as possible so the actor can then say i will do my job i don’t want to tell the audience how to think but i will display to them exactly what the situation is so that they can decide how to think and then it gets to the audience and they hopefully gather all those things from those three processes or probably more they came before that and they don’t feel beset by someone else saying now you feel sad now you feel happy now this is complicated you know like they don’t feel that way they feel like oh this is a real story a real life situation that i can then get my own understanding of because then i can connect it to what i feel about as a human in that situation so now it becomes part of our shared understanding and that’s the critical thinking that i’m talking about in there and i think that you were sort of referencing is our ability to take input that might not all agree with each other you know a thousand points of data and get our own deeper more profound look into what that really means to us and i think we can’t let that go and that’s why reality tv sucks to divert is because they’re constantly telling you exactly what to think about the situation and that’s why it’s so i can’t even think of the word it it’s such a in my mind and it you know we’ve sort of gotten past a lot of that but that’s why it’s so sort of terrible for critical thinking and i think that those things go hand in hand or not maybe not by not mistake is not the right word but that’s not an anomaly that our decreased level of critical thinking also goes hand in hand with our decreased level of wanting to interpret media in a deep meaningful manner without being told how to interpret it so that’s my rant sorry it’s going on quite so long but that’s how i view the sort of holistic view of that stuff yeah i think we’re on the same page don’t worry it’s complicated and it should be complicated like everything should be complicated except for what food to eat we figured that one out it’s very much an aim of this show is to try and help people learn how to analyze the media that they engage with so that’s really useful justin thank you for that yeah it’s important that’s your job you know just like anything you have to watch something with a critical understanding of the 5 000 things that came before that that are influencing why that was done that way yeah because i think it’s so much about right well why is it framed in that way and why are we seeing that person at the moment why are they lit that way you know it’s asking all of those probing questions to get it an answer and if it throws up even more questions all the better as you say it’s complex but if you work through the complexity then you can have a eureka moment and go oh that’s yes what’s going on being manipulated okay and then you can do something about it totally so i’ll divert here for a second there’s an episode of the simpsons i don’t know if i know more than just about everyone but certainly almost everyone about the first 10 seasons of the simpsons anyway so there’s an episode with the um gummy venus de milo and um homer is supposedly you know sexually um harassed this she’s a a babysitter right and that wasn’t what he was doing he’s trying to get this famous piece of candy and all that stuff and so there ends up being footage of this and it’s a groundskeeper willie and he’s the one that did the footage because he’s a peeping tom or whatever and so homer gets on this show and then he gets you know they they re-edit it to make him look like a total psycho weirdo and all this there’s this big media hullabaloo and he’s just the most terrible dude in the world and they’ve already made a uh waited for tv movie starring dennis france from nypd blue and it’s like this whole mess right that just happens in this situation because um people just grab onto this stuff like vultures the video finally comes out with groundskeeper willy and we don’t know who he is yet but he shows the video and it like fixes the situation homer’s no longer in trouble and then immediately thereafter there’s a promo for the next video which is like basically saying how bad groundskeeper willy is for uh we willy peeper i think they call him for being the one walking around with the camera getting all this stuff and then homer immediately turns on him he’s like shouting at the tv he’s like that man is evil and marge is like homer he just saved your life and he’s like but marge listen to the music and so like it’s such a good encapsulation of how immediately we’re we’re made to feel a certain way just by the music or the lighting or whatever the situation is and we just take it hook line and sink or at least if we’re homer we buy into that [ _ ] immediately yeah yeah yeah so i don’t know that’s my favorite is that show just has so much truth you know it means so much of like oh that’s how the world works and so many of us have watched it endlessly and yet we’re still making the same mistakes yeah exactly yeah yeah it’s not even like oh i know what not to do now you’re like oh i see what i’m doing yeah i suck that’s totally the problem that i previously understood was a problem oh well yeah you make your mistakes over and over until you finally don’t keep making them hopefully yeah we just keep trying so justin would you like to point people towards your website your socials so that they can find you and follow your work yeah certainly that’s an easy place to go it’s not fully updated but it certainly can get you there if you wanted to buy the movie right now it’s at little sister ant dot shop and then you can find me on justin makes movies on instagram that might be a good way to approach all that you know there’s a million different ways to find me or anyone these days and it’s hard to keep track yeah yeah thank you so much for having me on i mean this is a excellent interview i definitely got to talk about i’ve done like dozens of or maybe a dozen of these so far and um i think they got i got a little bit deeper into some stuff on this one than i did on another one so i’m very grateful that you you know provided the platform for that well it’s been so lovely having you have been really looking forward to speaking to you and thank you for accommodating our big time difference oh yeah no problem out of bed anything that can make that happen is good no problem at all it’s so nice to connect with people so far away but to just hear so many excellent stories and to learn so much about your practice and everything that you do thank you so very much justin you’re very welcome yeah excellent this has been a cozy peapod production with me paula blair the music is common ground by airton used under a creative commons 3.0 non-commercial license and is downloadable from episodes release every other wednesday subscribe on apple podcasts spotify amazon music or wherever you find your podcasts see the show notes for a video link if you need auto captions be part of the conversation with av cultures on facebook and twitter or iv cultures pod on instagram as well as patreon membership one-off support is appreciated at forward slash pea blair i produce and edit the show by myself and i am grateful for any support for this work for more information and episode links visit thank you so much for listening catch you next time you