Audiovisual Cultures 119 – Maysville

Listen and view the show notes and full automated transcript below!

Show Notes

Paula Blair speaks to writer and director Leslie Goyette and producer Michele Englehart about their film Maysville (2021). In our conversation you’ll learn about their 3-year journey from script to finished film, their experience with crowdfunding and the kindness of communities, and the sheer tenacity it takes to achieve a goal you really believe in. This is an enjoyable and illuminating conversation which I hope you’ll get something out of and share.

Music: commonGround by airtone (c) copyright 2018 Licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution Noncommercial (3.0) license.

Edited by Paula Blair with Audacity.

Recorded with Zoom on 4 May 2022. Access Behind the Scenes recordings on Patreon.

Maysville website:

Leslie and Paula connected via

Automated Transcript

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though you’re very welcome to you RT of facial cultures the podcast that explores different areas of film the arts and media I’m Paul up there and in this episode I talk to the writer and director let’s see cognacs and producer Michelle Engelhard’s abate their film maze filled which is available on various streaming sites as well as on DVD and Blu ray and the U. S. you’ll find useful links in the show notes and everything else you’ll need audio visual cultures dot com a big thank you to our patrons at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures his generosity is funding our websites and thanks as well to you heather pony read he replied on Instagram and I posted about yes more computer bows as it seems we have the same laptop and heather says I recently discovered your podcast and it’s great I’m really glad you’re enjoying it has their hands thank you and everyone else for investing in for engaging with us wherever you do that so in today’s discussion we skirted around Paul details for the film may you spell but I think that it’s fine for me to say that it is a tragic family ands coming of age periods drama set in depression era of the ship if you’re not aware of it it’s a real might necessary it in the United States Leslie and Michelle take history quite a lot of the production details including importantly their experience with crowdfunding and simply asking for things that you told people what they needed and they made a film that looks a lot more expensive than a speaker because of the kindness of the community stay were working with and I think that’s really pertinent for me because I was living in Newcastle upon Tyne has taught me shy bairns get nights you know if you don’t ask you don’t get let’s see Michelle really show you why it’s important to just go for it to just tell people like this is what we needs today that S. what do you think what can you do with a mention some difficult topics around death poverty and abusive behavior but there’s also a lot of joy and hope the restore some faith in humanity and both the story of may spell on the Siri if making maze spell they may face so it really hope you enjoy this one it was it was just a really great conversation and it was a real joy to meet lastly and Michelle as well they’re they’re welcome back anytime so hope you get a lottery if it nine I know I certainly did let’s see go yes and Michelle Banco hearts thank you so much for joining me on audio visual cultures we’re going to discuss your independent film maze spell that’s just so exciting but this first of all if it’s okay could I ask each of you C. NG sure selves to bet on C. six billion the roles each if you had in the film if we start with Leslie is out all right now I’m amazed to Michelle my name’s Leslie yeah I was the writer and one of the producers and the director for the town I am amazing partner Michelle yes my name is Michelle it’ll hurt I am %HESITATION producer and maze spell Celeste Lee and I teamed up to get the film made I know that getting the film made a toll was a huge achievement for both fifty and so we’ll try and learn a bit of bite that at any moment spent where did the story come from and why did you decide to tell it on film will talk but the story itself in a bad spot %HESITATION I just wondered what were the origins of the story first of all well the origins of the story it’s a coming of age story set in the nineteen twenties and that part of the United States called Appalachia Appalachia is a remote part of the United States it’s a very mountainous area it’s part of where I grew up so that part of the country it’s that poverty stricken area and I kind of wanted to tell a story about things that I had seen and things that I had witnessed and growing up in that area but I also want to take it back in time a little bit some of the characters are kinda loosely very loosely based on people that I had interacted with throughout my life heady and Willie that G. main characters early on in the film are are based on my sister and my relationship the closeness that we add the adventures that they have together things like that those are all things that I did as a child with my sister it’s not by any means autobiographical goodness it’s not autobiographical it’s based on you know the area where I grew up with and that’s where it came to me and why is hold on film was it the second part your question in Leslie can answer this better than me but I just want to say is a writer Leslie is a very visual writer when I first read the script I could picture every scene my mind like how it was going to beat it and she’s not a prolific writer is very you know not a lot of information but if the right amount of information for me to visualize really picture how how this would be films which I thought was unusual to do read a lot of scripts I think she’s a visual writer which lends itself to film and Sam and then it’s out what really attracted you to producing it that Michelle was just she wanted to visualize sought for Leslie well it will tell you the back story the city especially night we knew each other do we to have met on the set that are %HESITATION kids had done a commercial for probably eight years ago now while ago and kept in touch via social media Facebook she lives in Portland which is about three hours from where I’m at in Seattle so just you know queen says over social media but one day she came to me and asked if I’d be she had watched a short film that I had put out on social media that my son had been in and she watched it and thought he would be perfect for the role of Willie for this script she wrote I didn’t know she was a writer and she had never previously shown anybody her scripts so she’s kind of like a closet raiders just she sent me the scripts and I started reading it and I’m not sure if you had time to watch the film but the set up of the film is with the boys you know their tweens the first fifteen minutes of the film you watch the set up and I read up to that point in the script and I was just like oh my god this is one of the best scripts I’ve read and I could just my heart I was totally engaged by page ten you know just sucked in and by like sixteen or something I text her I said oh my god is she said oh my god good %HESITATION oh my god dad because I was the first person to read the script and I said oh my god I just called her and I said this is so good this is just so good so that’s how I got selected I didn’t know maybe at that time that was her first script I didn’t know anything you know if she’s made any short films or anything she came up to Seattle we did a table read and then after the table read she said so I don’t know if this can just be a short film if we could do a feature length film but you know what you ladies we can get it done could you help me I’ve never done so before so I don’t know I I tell people I don’t usually believe in fate but there was I feel like there’s an element here why this all came together why I said yes I thought it was just crazy I’m more conservative than Leslie and you know don’t usually take risks like this and I just was a great time in my life and we kind of just figured it out together over the last three and half years it’s been kind of a crazy ride we’ve learned a ton a ton and I think we produce something pretty good for you know given what we %HESITATION the resources that we had a play into second let’s see do you want to add anything to Michelle stories there well yeah I think that I I I call myself a closet writer for many years I have so many scripts and short stories and so on and that I write but I’ve always felt that sharing your writing is like letting someone see ill make it you know nobody you just don’t want to do that and because it shows all your flaws it shows you know your inhibitions it shows everything in your writing and people can’t really judge you on your writing style even though I love to write I’ve never really shared by writing with anyone so it was a big step a big step for me to say Hey I’m going to share something with you and it was easier to share it with someone that I didn’t know really well then it was share share with someone who I intimately know or care a lot about because Michelle could have been honest with me does that make sense I’m Michelle had no nothing best and she could have hurt my feelings that thank you I think it’s a something for us right now but her response was authentic and genuine and she was very enthusiastic about the script and made me feel somewhat validated I guess all writers maybe need some kind of validation before they take the next step at least for me at it that’s a really important story to tell I think because there’s probably a lot of people like they’re like you you hear setting on work and they’re too scared to share it with anyone and that’s a really great story of where it can actually work I’d if you take that leap into the abyss so that’s really great for people to hear I hope hope hope you know art is the most important thing to me art most important thing in the world because it it brings joy right whatever form of art there is it brings joy and it sometimes being on her way to share your arch keeps people from sharing it you know and it may really resonate with someone hi tended to did you go from the the ID in the script Sakshi getting it into production because I know that you you went to in the crowd funding rates I’m sure there’s a big story behind that as well I think one of the smart moves we made as we carved out six months to see how much money we could race to see whether we could take on a feature length film funding wise or whether we just might have enough money to do what we feel would be to put forward a short film I think a lot of filmmakers at least one a lot of local indie filmmakers I know they don’t necessarily take that time may kind of wing it and try to do stuff and no money and I do think we did the right thing by taking that time and doing it and it it didn’t just raise the funds it helps spur our marketing right from the very beginning to start building your audience early is that some advice we got from another producer that I think is was well taken so you can the two can go hand in hand we did a big what we thought was a big crowd funding and indie gogo which was quite successful we more than made our goal and that inspired us to think that we had enough to meet your future phone which we actually end up doing we had to do a lot of asking because we didn’t have enough money to make a really good quality feature of the film is set back in the nineteen twenties so that’s another feat that’s quite hard to pull off as an indie filmmaker to make it at that tech looking to the nineteen twenties and more expensive right all the props and Senate locations and all that so in addition to %HESITATION you know raising the money we had to do a lot of asking of Hey can you volunteer to let us use your vintage car yeah we asked the town’s we found two historic towns next to each other for filming you know we had to ask you know their city council if we can use their public spaces they gave it to us for free just about all the locations were given to us for free to use the props antiques and even an old tractors the perfect old tractor we’re looking for the actually look new we found a steam train there’s a local steam train that actually still operates down there and we needed one for the film they gave us the use of that for free yeah I mean it was just almost ridiculous how much was just given to us just because we asked so the combination of raising what we thought was enough money in conjunction with just getting out there and asking people people are excited said make a film this was in two towns that are pretty not remote but there is not a lot going on down there and them and they are historic and I think that a lot of people in those towns that was really cool that it a film set back in the twenties is going to be made in their towns there’s a lot of get up and go a lot of good will down there that we found it we also did at dinner fundraiser down there to raise money that was the initial reason but it actually did a lot more than that it got that good will get the word out in the excitement out a lot of the Ted that people down there became extras in the film they’re really excited about that and some of them brought their own wardrobes and just got really into it even the fire chief the ad at the fire station helped us we didn’t have sixteen hundred dollars to rent a rain machine so he he brought fire track and hooked up the hose and we got one K. we got one shot on this one J. and he just prayed the hose in the air and got the rain to come down on the actors and their work we were so excited we had shot the scene twice already with no rain right well doesn’t work we’ll have our back up right yes so and and it was amazing just to see the community come together to try to make this project because when we were at the dinner we just had a captive audience we ask people were like this is what we need this is what we need this is what we need is what we need and by the time we were done with that dinner we had two people volunteer their farms to be burnt down and we were just kind of you know right away what we need to burn down the barn does anyone ever bark we can burn down yes you well in two years yeah we’re just jokingly asking to %HESITATION thing that we learned in all of this is that at the end of the day people want to help people thank you it’s just a lot of times people don’t want to ask for help the R. model began eighteen it became that power up the ass be authentic in your ask be truthful be honest let them know this is where I’m coming from I don’t have a budget where I can you know give you money the people were just %HESITATION one all and excited to be you know a part of it it’d be part of something creative that’s bigger than yourself I think that I would sign on if somebody asked me you know it anyway it’s it’s exciting to be part of something that so many people are involved in to actually put something on the big screen that could look really good they didn’t know asked they didn’t know we had no stars in the film you know no A. listers that are recognizable and murky but they totally bought into the story and the idea of making a film down there and the fact it was sent back in time I think it was a another big selling point can also tune into six story and I just feel like there’s a whole other side of this film as well it’s going to really beautiful story that can circulate with so I think that to get into more details but the film itself you know as indicated very clearly by the title the location is so important and as you’re saying it’s that community and I it’s great to hear such a positive story right the making of the film because I think the film itself deals is really very difficult and she’s and not so much of a community spirit going on if I’m picking up on that right so I was just wondering if you kids help flashlight a bit more for any listeners especially here in the U. K. you know we’re we’re fed a lot of sculpture from the U. S. but the specific location and after that time that you’re talking about most of us are going to know absolutely nothing about that so if it’s okay could you just help flesh out a bit more forests to depression era I it’s very rural very might necessary yet and then the sorts of issues that you’re dealing with that because you know there’s going to be a lot bubbling up Ryan’s not as well in terms of because I think the suffrage movement but is going on and and there’s a lot of racial problems and then there’s classic she’s while you’ve mentioned so if you’re happy to maybe less EKG just last Saturday but Marcus what’s your story as well you want to tell well if we’re gonna talk about Appalachia I do need to make sure that I preface that these are my people this is where I grew up and I love the end of your where I’m from so by any means I’m the purpose of this is not to shine a negative light on the people of Appalachia but Appalachian in the nineteen twenty eight is very different %HESITATION Appalachian ballad eight we’re up we’re going back in time and we’re looking at a time when I don’t think things were so different so much in Appalachia as they were in other parts of the country women were more of a second class citizen then man even in the early nineteen twenties when men that were just started a little bit more we were dealing with I don’t want to give away too much of the story is there is a very big twist at the end and the big twist at the end actually we’ll explain the actions by a lot of the characters throughout infidelity is one of the most memorable thing that you could have done in that time in Appalachia it’s something that that was our letter you know what I’m saying very much about starlet letter that area it fell yeah like I said it’s under Sir but there’s not a lot of well generations after generations after generations lived there but not a lot of people a lot of families can’t break out of poverty cycle but at the same time they’re also a very strong eight they’re very strong in their faith and their beliefs so trying to explain that without giving like much of a story and it’s a little little bit than a fine line to walk there but it’s a very beautiful part of the country the Appalachian trail a lot of people will hike that it is just the mountains trail %HESITATION on the eastern part of the United States it’s beautiful and the people are wonderful they’re just very set in their ways and sometimes people will justify their actions by what has happened yeah and I hate to use the %HESITATION terms but I four nine if you hear a lot of times people still feel that way and back in that time the nineteen twenties there was not on law enforcement as you see it now right there was one local sheriff for like three or four to L. and that was the case that the story up there we had one share I never hear of many different things like that so I hope that can help an indescribable Billboard it Leslie you know the extension that some of this a lot of it is pulled from her her childhood here in there which Leslie and I are about the same age so grew up in the seventies it’s set back in the nineteen twenties because maybe it’s a little bit more believable so that some of this these things actually can happen they still actually Leslie maybe you could talk to this can happen today that some of the things that happen in the movie like that could never happen Welton Leslie might know about the situations in her childhood where things like that actually did happen yeah I grew up with this and we were court reporter growing up we didn’t have a car I don’t think anyone would ever relate to that you know what I’m saying the seventies eighties and nineties growing up how did you not have a car but we don’t have a car I would have a telephone that sounds great to you and when I was in high school we did not have a telephone we couldn’t afford it and having that you know even though some of the things that you see you know was in the seventies eighties and nineties I took it back to the twenties because I just don’t think that if I told the story of the seventies eighties and nineties well not as we’re not believed that people would not believe that how does a family not have excel how do you not have a land line in your house we didn’t read it I had a single mother with trying to raise three children of our own and it was just their circumstances that we grew up in so we decided I decided to take this story back to the twenties to make some updates you know that I can relate you’re from my child care it would explain things a lot easier that’s really great to hear about that less because I was something I was gonna ask you bite cassette the setting is almost a hundred years on from where we are today I think that actually quite a few of the issues that come up in the film are really Prashant right now all right I think especially with a lot of what we said with their abusive behavior and race relations and gender and equality and everything he can and well into the twenty first century noise so I think it is a very twenty twenty story and a lot of ways as much as as a nineteen twenty sorry so it it’s really great to hear I’m really fascinating what you’re saying is well the plight that decision to go back to the Chinese that makes a lot of sense actually because I grew up more in the eighties and the U. K. and yet we do even for a lot of a CVP considers horror underprivileged but we probably would have had access T. a landline telephone or a cover of some description at even a neighbor’s car or something like that so you know that’s really just fastening contacts here but I thought thank you both for that yeah yeah you just hit the nail on the head you’re really did you’re really something that up very well it’s just interesting you know even when I was telling myself some of the stories from my childhood shows like what at the same time and regionally we were just a few hundred miles from each other she was growing up in Illinois and I was growing up in Kentucky but we grew up in two very different worlds very very different worlds and it’s just fascinating just to see that how to people who are completely different not far from each other but just experienced two drastically different either you mentioned earlier as well that the two boys teddy and waylaid the beast very roughly on you and your sister and then putting it back to the twenties and changing them to police as Scott Disick in to facilitate the storytelling do you think it’s easier for employees or it’s easier for me because there were some parts that I did want to share about my life okay I just felt that it was the right thing to do was to make them boys some of the things that make my sister and I did work very well wait role you know what we would find in the Barnes and Klein you know fifty feet in the rockers I would die now if I saw my kids doing things like that you know we we go frog gigging and you know we would ship times we shot guns and in the field not a lot of things that you see Freddy and really doing there definitely more masculine things but those are the things that we had it that’s what we had to play with when you’re married remember from people so that’s just what we had to delete things that were around that’s what we have to play with and that’s what we yet there is a lot of times when I was very emotional on set you know I just think that it it would have been two little girls I would’ve been a total basket okay I’m still close with my sister and I love her so much but I think having a boy it’s the kind of things a little are a little bit more controllable yeah that makes a lot of census three users here I mean we talked earlier as well right just hi positives it production experience was and it does look like he hello maybe we can consider a lot of the actors as terribly famous or anything like that they’re actually really high caliber it and the performances set you’ve got out of them and she’s got really high production values and hi the film has been found the lighting music and and all of these elements that make it looks very polished and they make it look a lot more expensive than I probably actually will which is one of the men thank you all right coming from you that really means a lot someone has so much education and someone who has spent so much time studying found that’s really sweet of you to say that means that means a lot but we you know we were limited with our actors we were limited with what we had to change from what we have to work with but I do agree with you I do think that we got some really really genuine performances and %HESITATION I think that it came through and they were more than just characters they really worked really hard to get to where they needed to be instrumental scenes for heart things were very hard but I think they roast beef thank you all we wanted to make a family I talked to Michelle about this I did not want to tell this story how a modern day director would tell story stories nowadays are very different R. told very different and how old they are we’re told when I was when my children watch that comes from my childhood and I’m like oh this is scanned by me you’re gonna love it rob Reiner’s great blah blah blah this is Ron Howard and this is Joe Dante when I share with them they think I’ll use work %HESITATION really %HESITATION and they’re very much a narrative belt right whereas a more modern day wait you’re a lot of our modern day story starts with inner dialogue the characters we must the reaction that we eat your entry the audience you’re trying to see what is going through the mind of the characters and it’s not so bad body yet so Michelle and I were we want to tell in old fashioned story not very old fashioned but I wanted to tell it the way that we grew up watching and that was the intent that so with the listen to the score the score is very much something you would have heard and the eighties and nineties someone brought up out of Africa it has we’re going out of Africa or something like that and it’s more of an epic sound to it then something that it’s a little bit more modern and that was the look and the feel that we were going for day one with our cinematographer antara composer the film is getting really positive reviews wherever people are watching it so catchy point the search to words where they can find it and any information that as well like they’re they complained about it he Michelle would you like to yeah so it’s on Amazon and designed to be TV and it’s on Google play and YouTube it’s also being taken to the console market coming up so we’re excited to see if it hopefully can go somewhere yeah that Avenue and yeah we’re on Facebook based on the movie and Facebook is probably the best place to go to social media to find out the latest %HESITATION what’s going on there filming the reviews we post in there all the press everything is on and our Facebook page did I miss anything less like so interesting hi there if you have anything you you really want to hot up in the film because we’ve been tiptoeing around the story because we don’t want to give too much away but is there anything else you wanna add about your experience in making acts and the people that you worked with anything at all well I think we kind of already said it but just to reiterate that craziness of how I mean you mentioned the production quality value the film and that the good acting all round I think we really made a really solid looking film that’s the feedback we get that looks studio quality if you know more about our budget was less than six figure six you know you have to you know we say for the price of a new car we made this film over the course of three years and I I am biased but I think it looks and feels and watches it’s just it’s amazing for what we specs and I think you know we’re first time filmmakers never even made a short film before and we did this and pulled it off and so I think that’s that’s the story behind the story be back in just in general that’s a really good story beautifully told and we just hope that people will watch it and I see I hope this gives you the confidence to get more of the scripts I do thought closet yeah hello I I hope to find that one person out there that would believe in me we’ve been to hell do not tell anyone what you spent on the stock don’t keep that budget look you know keep it quiet because if anyone knew what we what we really did here with the amount of money that week that they would know that it was tried just shy of a miracle thanks there’s a part of me that says look what I can do for this amount of money if you would just believe in me I can do an amazing product with a few hundred thousand dollars you know I don’t even need you know millions of dollars I don’t need that and I don’t think a lot of people I need to bring a quality piece of work I don’t I don’t there was no backing up your call back I don’t know if you have heard of that or saw it but it was just for actors in a room that’s it and for a credible actors in the film was done for three hundred thousand dollars it just goes to prove that I’m trying you can just have a good story and if you have a good performance %HESITATION and just believe it stopped working I just believe in not directed that they can deliver something I would love to be able to find someone with a refurbished Alibag if we have so many stories that we have we can share there’s very different remains though very different where it I’m definitely more of a I liked eating any unnecessarily horror when I left I left to get people thinking I have four other scripts but I would love to help right thank you this crazy thing again I think that sets the toxic message to the nation I absolutely hear ye I I just totally agree with everything that you’re saying give people chances give people resources and look what they can achieve so that’s such an important message for this and I I just feel so privileged that you folks come on and talk about all this and shared your story and I hope that my tiny podcast can in some small way get that message out there as well for you so let’s see K. S. and Michelle angle heart thank you so much for your time thank you so much for sharing your story and just wish you all the best with everything it has to come and I hope there are great things coming for you and %HESITATION I really hope I get sick T. again that more links another time yeah me too well thank you so much thank you so much well it’s been a pleasure yeah it’s brilliant


On #chalk, censorship and community

Amy is awesome!



IMG_5703Last month I attempted to create a communal chalk drawing, by inviting the guests at an event I organized to grab a piece of chalk on the way out and contribute to a drawing that I had already started. The event was an interview with Richard Demarco, arts patron, artist and national treasure of both Scotland and the UK. In the 1970s, Demarco cultivated a strong friendship with German artist Joseph Beuys, a performance artist who developed the idea of social sculpture, which meant that even a conversation could be a work of art. He also espoused the idea that everyone is an artist—everyone has an inner creativity that is just waiting to be tapped.

IMG_5643 My interview with Richard Demarco

Demarco, too, believes that. This is the creativity that we all access as children, as we draw in chalk on the sidewalk or colour outside…

View original post 1,745 more words


Audiovisual Cultures episode 86 – Art and Community with Clinton Kirkpatrick automated transcript

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this is audiovisual cultures the podcast that explores different areas of the arts and culture of production with me paula blair visit forward slash av cultures to find out more and to join the pod hello thank you for tuning in to another audio visual cultures podcast my guest today has been mentioned before if you recall episode 77 with joanna leach talking about the amabe project today’s guest is one of the contributing artists and i am really very pleased to speak with clinton kirkpatrick very warm welcome clinton how are you today i’m very well thank you how are you i’m not too bad you’re joining us from belfast is that right i am yes i live over in east belfast um so i’m at home today yeah lovely yeah i’m from east belfast and i’m a bit homesick for it at the minute clinton could i ask you to be so kind as to give us a bit of an overview of your work because you work in a lot of different ways and with different media and lots of things so could you just give us a bit of an overview of how you would describe your practice yeah sure so i’ve always kind of like said that i i’m first and foremost like a painter and whilst that still comes into my mind every time i’m asked this question i know i do a lot of other things within my practice as well so there’s a lot of printmaking a lot of drawing and then more recently lots of collage in my work really since like last summer and then this year i’m hoping to kind of take my work into a slightly different direction again and introduce animation and moving image into my practice so i’m next week actually just beginning to learn around animation because i’ve always been able to kind of see my work uh moving in my mind like you know i create lots of characters so i kind of can always see them moving in my minds i kind of want to you know actually see what that might look like so yeah so my work is um it’s quite broad my interests are quite broad you know fundamentally really interested in the human i’m really interested in how we function both individually but also collectively within society so if you kind of look through my work there is a lot of character that come into that there’s a lot of strange situations or lots of play lots of absurd notions and i know i kind of have on my chest i almost kind of like soak in everything around me and then chew it all up and then sort of like spit it back out and that’s kind of what you see with my work yeah and lots of color i love color very bold color i think is a good way of describing it i think it’s fair to say that your work is distinctive it’s really quite um i want to use the word weird but i’m meaning in a really positive sense and i i love weird it takes the body and fragments it but yet you know so you’ll take feet or legs or eyes and you’ll put them in different positions i mean there’s something harking back to surrealism but it’s not quite that and it’s not reproducing that it’s there’s a hint of it but it’s doing something different and what do you think about those sorts of ideas i’m an advocate of the sort of weird and wonderful and yeah certainly i would agree there is a touch of like surrealism in my work but i kind of i almost like look at myself as an artist in a contemporary climate where i know it’s like i think we live today in a space where you can kind of pick and choose and take whatever you want and you know you don’t have to fit within one genre or the other i think that’s what my work is i mean if you look through some of my work you’ll see that i do quite detail portraits or drawings of people and then on the flip side my work would be quite cartoonish and i don’t want i don’t need myself as an artist to be recognized as any one thing you know and i think within me all of this exists so you know that’s kind of what i want to kind of put back out to the viewer i think also you know as an artist you’re always kind of like grappling with what it is you want to talk about what it is you should be talking about or how you your work should look and certainly you know i think that things identify you as an artist but i don’t think it should be definitive if that makes sense i don’t think it should be something that you know is uh so written in stone that you don’t have room to move so yeah so i really love to play with the work you know you said there but kind of taking pieces i mean it’s literally kind of like stripped the body apart rip the body apart eyes are a massive thing in my work i think years ago i first really started noticing the introduction of eyes and my work and it wasn’t really until other people started to comment like oh why are all of these eyes in your work and i was like oh you know there’s lots of eyes in my work it was sort of like done on a more subconscious level and then i started to really notice that i was always going to the eyes and i guess i kind of see the eyes as like an entrance you know it’s almost like a you know it’s a window into whatever is going on and the rest of the image it gives a connection to something human and even you know when you look through my work characters can appear alien-like or they’re so strange but there’s always the nod to the human it sort of gets back to like i like the weird i like the absurd i use i use the word absurd and my work all the time and it can be as absurd as it needs to be so i’m okay with that yeah you seem to have a lot of beings shall we say that our maybe legs join together and then they’re just covered in eyes there is something a bit i suppose it’s almost like maybe a child’s drawing of an alien or something you know when we would imagine creatures from outer space and things that’s quite fun it could be me and my research background but when i see lots of eyes i think of surveillance and i think of watching and the paintings looking back at me and things i mean what would you say about that yeah i mean i think it’s an interesting comment i mean i am a watcher i am somebody who looks at people you know i look at the world i look at the different spaces that we kind of all cohabit um i watch and perhaps it is a little bit of a nod to you know that sort of idea that within my practice like i’m looking at all things all the time that sort of gets back in my mind at the minute to kind of the ideas of identity and stuff and whilst we can define ourselves as one thing of the other i sometimes find that very problematic because we live in a world with so many different types of people what i mean by that is like i like looking at all of those different types of people i don’t need to be in one space or the other it can be right down to kind of like the most hateful people i also enjoy watching that because i feel like i learn a lot from that and i feel like i can take into my work and it’s the power of the artist i guess you have the ability to talk about challenging things or strange things or you know whatever you have the power within you to put back out whatever you want and have a real conversation with society and with people you know the world you mentioned as well i had a good day around on your website and you do mention that about you’re looking at the individual but you’re also trying to look at broader society in that work would you maybe have any examples from your work that demonstrate that kind of idea that do both at the same time you mean looking at like an individual and looking at a scenario i guess yeah yeah what are you getting at when you point out that you’re looking at society and as you say there’s so many different kinds of people and you’ve got so many different shapes of being in your work i look at them a lot on instagram and i think well oh that’s a funny looking creature oh but it’s looking at me and maybe it’s thinking oh what a funny looking creature yeah maybe they are live somewhere i don’t know yeah i guess you know the a lot of kind of my work will come from a lot of it does come from my own experience and i guess i’m thinking now back to 10 years ago i first went overseas and i started talking about this a lot and i’m moving away from talking about it now because it was a period of my life where it happened and i had a remarkable kind of like introduction and learning around my work but you know that very kind of explicit white man role within a black society really became a prevalent conversation in my work because i went to kenya originally as a volunteer but throughout that experience i became entirely connected i mean i looked at what i think originally i didn’t understand the i was naive i guess because i was just like oh i’m in a new part of the world i’m meeting amazing people and you know i’m seeing an amazing space without really understanding the intricacy to do with black white culture and you know white man or you know uh whatever privilege means you know but indirectly a lot of that started to come into my work so it’s a huge conversation for eight years of my life was this massive learning around you know me as a white man in a black society and what that might meant and white privilege and then of course today we’re seeing huge you know it’s always been there but like that really huge black lives matter movement which is so important and you know this so kind of my work would comment and has commented on sort of things like that you know and also you know i’m gay so like my work kind of quite often you know looks at homosexuality or identity you know for uh for of a better kind of term there and like right now um it’s the february 2021 it’s our february each year is lgbt history month so i’ve decided this month i am actually going to explore avenues around what it is because i don’t know if i necessarily think about it all the time because i’m i don’t care to think about you know the fact that i’m gay it’s just not a for me it’s like not something that is an issue but it’s like for me i’m like i want to learn i want to kind of put in so like yeah so i’m creating kind of i’m also kind of like doing a bit of research at the minute and then i’m imagining that lots of characters and situations might come out of that but we’ll see but yeah so i kind of dip in another as sort of as and when or whatever’s presented i mean i think that’s kind of a great thing about the world today is you know you’re reminded quite often of what’s going on because of social media or if there’s a specific time you know that is being celebrated or commented on i will link into things like that as well sorry i kind of maybe went off in a bit of a full up that’s fine that’s what this is all about take a walk with your ideas so just to try then to tie that in with the different approaches to practice that you make so if you’re dealing with those kinds of ideas quite big ideas about human and identity and seeing and and looking and watching and then you’re working across painting drawing collage print making and you say you’re going to move into animation which will be amazing because if you can give life and kineticism to those images because some of them do feel like they’re in mid-stride or something you know so it’d be amazing to see that come to life i mean do you have any ideas on how the different media that you work in how that informs maybe the sorts of things and topics that you’re getting into in your work yes i mean i think early in my career early in my thinking i was like i’m a painter i’m a painter i’m a painter and early on i mean i’m still in love i’m actually probably more in love with painting now than what i’ve ever been i think part of that is to do with now that i’m really starting to understand the material really understanding what i need to do on a canvas and i’m also reaching much better results much more quickly so like there’s just this fundamental love of paint that kind of exists within me and i knew that early on i mean going through school i gravitated towards painting and drawing i love drawing as well um and then i left and of course through college and through foundation it was painting and my my own shoes were always painting and i was like right i have to go for a painting and drawing degree because i didn’t want to go back into like find applied art degree because i don’t want i don’t need to waste another year so i went into a painting my degree was actually in painting and drawing it was one of two left in the uk at the time so i went to england for that part of me always kind of put that label on myself at the beginning so i don’t know if i was as open or as receptive to other avenues within my practice continued with that you know painter painter painter and then it wasn’t literally until i went i was over overseas i was in kenya and sort of been in kenya and i think was the second time i was in kenya i literally went to an organization to introduce myself called kuna trust and the next day i got an email through offering out this printmaking course to the public which was like in woodcut print and i was like i’ve been really wanting to introduce a print technique into my work and therein lay my introduction to print and it was uh and it was good cut and i just absolutely fell in love with that process which made me then go and investigate other types of printmaking so now within my practice i you know also i have i still use woodcut funny it hadn’t been one in a while i was literally said on myself yesterday that i really want to do a new woodcut so i would sit and downstairs i’m kind of thinking around that night but i still do the word cut monotype because it is very painterly you know so gain gets back to that kind of notion of painting you know and then things like a little bit of etching or a dry point and that would be kind of what i focus on i’ve learned other things as well but i’m just not as interested in things like screen print or litho or things like that so that was my introduction into print and then as my practices started to grow i just naturally started to become so much more interested in other things last year collage became this massive part of my practice where i was just like this is really cool just like ripping stuff up and sticking it down and building layers i’m sorry cyanotype printmaking was another process where i really became attached to that but i was using cyanotype in a very very painterly way so i was actually making the solution and painting with the solution and exposing my drawings or my paintings to the sun and then that’s what kind of creates the center type and then i would work over the top and that’s kind of how the collage came in i would work over the top of that in drawings and then i was like starting to rip stuff up and then i made this massive this time last year i began making this like 28 foot piece of work it’s rolled up in a room there but uh yeah so it’s kind of like it’s led me on and then yeah and then also with the animation now i’ve always been able to visualize my characters moving and i’ve almost wanted to be able to look around them i’m making them from the side of the front but i’m kind of like what do they look like from behind i don’t know my mind’s eyes like what way is this going to go i don’t know but in my mindset it’s kind of you know i’m going to see them from all ankles or spaces you know which would be interesting yeah that sounds really exciting exploration to do you seem to have been really prolific in the past year certainly i mean following you on instagram you’re always putting up new things that you’re working on and exploring and stuff and it’s so great to hear that you’re still energized and you’re moving into these different areas with it i mean i was wondering because it’s come up a lot of course it has with people i’ve been speaking to recently how anybody’s had to adapt their work in the past year and i know that you’ve done a lot of community work in the past would you like to talk a bit about that you know because your own practice seems to be really ticking off lately but the other part of your artist life how are things going there with that sort of work yeah it’s i mean i think the whole chronovirus experience for all of us has been so remarkably individual and different for everybody and i know for me it’s been a very interesting time but you know i like the rest of like dipped in my mood i had an extraordinarily difficult year last year in many ways but what i realized was one of my main difficulties is when you’re an artist and you’re making the other side of my work thankfully is community arts and i get to be able to pay my bills usually through community arts and then i get to spend the rest of my time in the prep so my whole life is consumed with art and i love the community arts having that kind of stripped away last year so abruptly was a kind of shocking and i was like wow you find yourself in this space that is just so unusual and i realized that for me you know when you don’t earn heaps of money and you’re kind of like keeping things going along on a very thin line than wire as it is and then you have that stripped away it was extraordinarily difficult to come to terms with like how am i going to be able to cope through this period of time because i literally find myself with no income and not getting any reduction in rent or anything it’s just like so like the bills need paid your grant needs paid you know you need electricity or food so for me i was like right well how are we going to kind of like how am i going to do this thankfully the arts council came out with their support and i appealed of their first round of funding and i literally wrote a project that was to be delivered online so it was exploring these new ways of working and looking at hard work as an artist and i am glad to say that i delivered over the space kind of three four months a remarkable project i mean i’d introduced into my own practice previously the idea of what i call sky drawings that are kind of like i’ve been making cutouts basically and they’re little pieces that you would find in my paintings of characters or eyes or whatever but i had been photographing those so they are cut outs i color them black or spray paint them or i have used kind of like an oil stick and then i drop those i hold out at arm’s length and i drop those but i photograph it at the moment where the sky is literally kind of framing the drawing and they turn out to kind of be like they look just so impactful and so interesting and i was this is great so i could maybe try and do this as a community project so i wrote a community project and thankfully you know eastside arts helped me to advertise that and i managed to get about 15 people onto the program and over the space of the few months i delivered this really class like i mean really class project where they all made quite large drawings and then one so what what i did was i got them to all create i did the sessions like this at home on zoom and then when they finished their drawing i either collected or got them to post me their drawing i took their drawing and i made the cutout from it and then i went around places right they spell fast and photograph them it was just lovely look like i mean i’m still in love with lots of the imagery that kind of come out of that and i would like in the in the future when things have been up to you put on a little bit of an exhibition around it or things like that so for me it was like looking for ways to kind of do stuff and then start it up with a little bit of work again towards december but then that’ll cancel with new lockdowns around christmas and well that came in a boxing day so i find myself still with like work now although february is looking like we’re going to try and do some more online stuff with the likes of c chord down in bangor to talk about kind of my work as an artist through that and kind of my um i’ve always been somebody who is making so i have tried remain busy this year i’ve had my moments of like you know there’s been times where i’m not but i find for me that you know my studio like i think as an artist you have to make the work if you are if you’re a mecca if you’re a creator i mean you have to do the work you know if you’re calling yourself an artist but you’re not making the work i don’t really get it it’s okay look i know i know we all work at different speeds i don’t mean to kind of like i’m not trampling over people there but for me i know that my approach to my thinking around being an artist is that if i don’t make this work the work is not going to exist you know or what’s in me is not going to be out where it needs to be so i kind of try to keep myself active am i trying to be there but also i have been very fortunate to have my studio space which is private so i’ve been able to go there i’ve been able to work and not see anybody i come back to the house and not see anybody just being this kind of like exchange where it’s isolation but i had my space to work because i would not have been able to work in this house so i’m quite you know i’m somebody’s always making and i draw every day and you know i i kind of think i like to keep myself busy because there’s a lot going on in this brain you know so i have to try and do it somewhere gosh that’s brilliant it’d be great to then hear if those new projects work out okay for you i really hope they do it was a real joy seeing a lot of the images again on instagram of the sky drawings and i really recommend people go and check those out because they’re really lovely thing to sit and look at i think would you like to talk a bit about some of the exhibitions that you’ve had in the past in the before times because you mentioned being in kenya and you have had some collaborative exhibitions is that right in nairobi and then you’ve exhibited quite a lot in northern ireland as well in different places so would you like to talk us through some of those and i’ve written down borrowed tales and life and other fictions and i ask you do you believe in miracles just even the titles of your exhibitions are quite intriguing i love titling my exhibitions i really do it’s like do you know i literally just the other day i have decided that i’m gonna i’ve started compiling the list of every title of my exhibitions because i wanted to have a look at what i i went back to the very first exhibition i put on which is through university and it was called unprotected and then i came home when i had a first exhibition in belfast in 2009 and i can’t really remember the title of it but the next one was called yesterday’s news and then that one i asked you do you believe america so that it’s nice to kind of like look i love titling my exhibitions but the title is always in reference to the work that i’m making or what’s going on in the work or my mind at that time it’s not always kind of like the title of a painting or whatever it’s just sort of almost like generally summing things up i love putting my work on in exhibitions i always organize two events with openings because uh well the first one is the opening which is kind of like that you know that you have to do that and then the second i always organize now um i organize a talk with my exhibitions and i love to talk because you get a group of people there that actually want to hear about the work and they want to ask you questions and i just i love that experience i don’t really enjoy openings and i don’t even really enjoy openings of other artists work you know i would prefer everyone spend time with the work later on but don’t get me wrong i do go you know and support my friends and support people but i think just that you know the preference in me is to go and really enjoy the work or enjoy hearing about the work i’ve showed ever since leaving university i threw myself into my practice whenever i came home so i actually lived away for like six years and then finally came back and i’ve been here ever since i’ve been home like 11 years now and decided to move home and get roots and get a space here where i was grinding myself a little bit but i right from the year after arriving home i had my first exhibition and a gallery it’s like clues called safe house gallery which was on donegal street in uh in belfast there and wonderful eccentric man called donnie burke was the guy that kind of uh offered me the first space then i did live the help of that gallery but that was kind of a nice thing it was nice right i’m going to put on work my work was really terrible you know like it was really bad painting hands up you know we all go through these kind of process but the ideas were great paintings were bad the ideas were great i had that show and then i had a second show in that scene gallery in the next year and then it was the year after that 2011 that i first went i had just this mad year of just people dying jobs ending i had a car crash you know i’ll not go through everything that happened was just like this year’s stuff and i kind of cleared off then i was like right i just want to go and do something for somebody else so i kind of went and did some volunteering in another country which happened to be kenya but what that did was it ignited in me everything about what i loved in the world and everything about what i loved in people and ignited this kind of like real investigation into who i am and where i am so ever since then i was back and then i had my first big exhibition in belfast which is in the waterfront hall and that was in march 2012 so 10 years next year and i filled that whole upstairs space with work and i was making like five and six foot paintings i still met large paintings now but it was just so lovely to be making the size of work that i wanted to make and it was all about kenya it’s all about my experience there a real mix of work and i did portraiture and i did you know abstract pieces in that and then lots of figurative stuff too that began in this real interaction and play with me in and out of kenya and it was like i went back as an artist and then i came home and i made another exhibition which went on display in lisbon in the island art center and that was 2013. and i applied to the museum in kenya so there’s the national museums of kenya to display the work that i had made over the previous number of years that was accepted and then i found myself back in kenya in 2014 for my first exhibition in the national museum there which was a really wonderful experience just wonderful every time i was there it was very very different but taking the work that i’d needed and you know i always remember like lydia galavu who is the curator there she still works the most wonderful woman she came up to me after had hung the work in the show and she said you know looking at your work it’s like you wouldn’t necessarily think that you were a white artist that always kind of stay with me because like i’m always interested in this idea of what identity is and you know i think it’s like there is color in my work and boldness and character and whatever and i was like i find it such a compliment and it was just such a it’s such a lovely time and i had a lovely you know lovely feedback from that show and it was just it was nice it’s validating for me like this is the type of artist that i am and this is what i need to be doing so yes i continued with shows then both at home here looking sort of more local sort of spaces and then john patrick and then arts art center and lots of spaces like that then i went back to kenya i ended up organizing an exhibition at home here with my woodcut teacher who uh was kenyan so john kamani and off the back of that lydia at the museum had wrote this very brief message under some posts on facebook saying kenya 2.0 question mark or something like that and i was like so there’s the seed that’s all i needed for to plant that seed which grew into another wonderful flower for me so then i went back and found myself back conducting more research so i went back the year uh what year was that 2016. i went back to kenya again and this time i removed myself from the investigation so it was nothing to do with me so i took a camera i went for a month two well i think two months but a month i spent a month and a half i spent kind of collecting imagery or not imagery imagery and oral voice recordings and i recorded stories so i went around people i knew loads of people that i didn’t and i asked them to tell me a story there’s no prescribed theme it’s interesting kind of watching how people struggle with kind of some people like i’m going to tell you the longest biggest story and then someone like what do you want me to tell you you know it’s like it was interesting kind of like watching that but it was so open but what i wanted to do was on purpose remove me from i wanted this to be entirely yes it was going to be a white man’s kind of visual remaking of stories but i just wanted to listen to stories and that made me realize my interest and love for storytelling and storytelling through my work so yeah so i went back then had joined exhibition in kenya in 2018 which was that show a game of john comany but i put on that show with all of that work with the oral kind of stories and then i came back and i had a show here called borrowed tales which you mentioned and that was all those wood cuts so i actually made 88 i recorded idiot stories and i made 88 pieces of work one piece of work for every single story that i recorded and i put them all on display so it was lovely it’s a lovely exhibition that’s such a lovely thing to hear about really i think i saw on your website you’ve described your painting process as a process of storytelling as well so it’s really lovely to hear about how you reach that do you think that’s something that comes through right across your work that their stories contained in your images yes i think more so now than ever because you can look back at my work from 10 years ago and see everything that’s going on night i’ve started to create this world and everything that i make is contained within that world you know i’m recalling certain images of yours i’m thinking it’s like you’re getting a fragment of a whole landscape and a whole thing that’s going on in this how would you respond to that you know how would you flash out some of those ideas i’ve realized now that storytelling is much more integral than what i maybe even really understood it to be i view my work as this world that i’m creating and that everything that i make and put into that is adding to that or a discovery of a new piece of that world i mentioned earlier on but it’s a very broad world you know so it’s almost like i’ll make things and then all of a sudden there might be crossover years later or i’ll revisit so i kind of make lots of characters in my work that signify certain things and then they’ll come back into my mind or they’ll crop up later on i mean there’s been a couple of characters so that there’s one that i call rainbow wife he’s this kind of blind character i don’t even he’s blind in the original one but he’s been blind later on but the original character was just this very kind of solemn not beautiful character you know he’s just kind of very dull in a sense but inside his mouth was this rainbow space and then he sort of existed at a show that i put on in the offer a show i put on in the ulster museum not the austin museum sorry the ulster hall years ago and that was his introduction but he’s always kind of cropped back in so i then couple years later took him on a journey and actually explored who his character was so still today you know i i’ll revisit him at times he’ll kind of like come in there’s another character called all eyes i mean i did this um other drawings recently that were incorporating this character and just covered in eyes and that kind of character wasn’t born out of this idea of being able to see all things at all times and i’m not saying these characters are all me but they certainly can be sometimes a reflection of me um or of elements of my psyche or the way i see things so i’m somebody who i feel i’m able to look at many things and hold many things even i don’t have to agree with them all but i’m able to see them if that makes sense um quite a perceptive person so a lot of my work is kind of i’ve realized that there’s this overarching kind of story behind a lot of it and i don’t need it to be some i don’t need to be a story book where it is like this is what the story is i want the viewer and i need the viewer to see and deal with things how they need to deal with them i in the last six months have i used to title i thought i’m just this morning like editing images for a new book and i realized that last halfway through last year a mentor i had a couple of years ago was like you’re titling all of your work and you’re giving the viewer everything the viewer needs you know he was like what about untitling your work presenting your work in an untitled kind of way so that sat with me for a while and then i began to introduce that into in my work halfway through last year where i was like but i’m just not putting a title with this so what it did was kind of like take away you know my meaning and just allow the characters of the situation to stand on their own so it was an important kind of moment but i’m also ready to be titling the work again but also to kind of like start to not be as direct with the title or to give a nod something where it’s not as specific or it is not as definitive as kind of giving everything that you need does that make sense to sort of yeah so it’s kind of like for me you know there is a lot of i’ve realized a lot of power in storytelling and even what i’m doing now in my research and in my own investigation as i’ve gone right back to what mythology is and then within mythology what creation myths are and i’m actually in the process of investigating various creation myths that have existed throughout human history in all different cultures and what i’m doing is i’m taking pieces of that you know whether it is modern day creation myths or egyptian creation myths or whatever the creation myth is i mean these slug characters keep coming into my work and i read this creation myth recently where you know these slugs fall from the sky and they create this foggy marshy area and then from this the first humans came to be and i’m just like this is thrilling you know it is the part of storytime is the power of art for me that is what my work is people will look at my work and they’re like what is that or you’re mad or i’ve had i’ve listened to it all over the years i don’t really care either but it’s like i’ve listened to it all but i always think if you take the time with any artist you have to be interested obviously in what they’re doing to want to invest it up but certainly for me when you start to investigate what my work is and what my practice is there is a whole lot there you know there’s a whole lot of world and you know a whole lot of world to see and there’s a whole lot more still to come out of me you know but we’ll see hopefully i do love your slug and space images i think they’re really cool and i read the other day bugs have four noses um or four kind of like things to smell from so i just like loving that it’s like i started the painting last week you know with a slug with like and i’ve taken a human nose but obviously yes that does not have a human node but in my painting so it’s like that’s what i do i hear things or i see things or i read things and i just if it resonates within me in some way i kind of like to kind of spit back out in a fun way i take the piss i think a little bit you know a lot of you know i do jest but i think with that humor it’s a way for me to navigate this world that we’re in and i like to laugh and i like you know i want i guess a little bit of that to kind of come through in my practice as well yeah i think you definitely need the bit of joy in there and i think to embrace the strangeness the absurdity and let it make you smile and put those blockers to that stuff away i think it’s really important so you mentioned there that you’re working on a new book project what big projects have you done before and can you tell us a bit about what’s coming in the future absolutely so um partially kind of through this lockdown thing i was like right i don’t have access to you know our normal kind of way my normal way of doing things where sort of putting exhibitions on or traveling with my work or whatever obviously that’s all on hold and it’s very difficult to sort of plan so i was kind of starting to think in my mind just like well what other things can i do through this time that’s a keeping me busy keeping me active so i have been drawing every day now since the beginning of 2017 so i’m actually into my fifth year of drawing every single day i have not missed a day maybe one day but i have not really missed any you know many days and actually now i kind of i do a couple of drawings a day and that is kind of a lot of what you’re seeing through that kind of feed on facebook or on it on instagram you’ve got this sort of like it’s almost like a digital gallery for me and it’s a space to kind of do sketches and put ideas so the book project this will be my second book so my first book it’s called world view from a white picket fence and that first book was drawings from my first year of drawing with digital media because i moved into using an ipad to draw with never used digital media before always was pretty anti-it and then i was like we’re living in such a digital age why am i not beginning to introduce that into my practice you know it just seemed silly but then i realized that i was making all this work and it was getting lost so there’s something really ephemeral or transient about things get lost in instagram or forgotten about or they become some sort of like old dusty relic in the bottom of the basement for me that i find that i started to find that very problematic so i did this first year of drawings like i really want to make a book and put some of these different drawings in the book so the first book was all black and white images and then the second year from 2018 i started to introduce with black and white images and color images into that digital drawing so i’ve realized it’s been three years since i made that book and i was like can i make another book so it’s trying to get the money those these things kind of cost money and things are kind of always they’re quite tight at the moment but i’m looking for ways to kind of bring this into life and i’ve literally just gone from 2 000 images 2000 images to 88 images maybe slightly more about 90 images and i am like i was like how do i out of this time because then what i did was i went through back through that history that catalogue and i laughed and i thought these are great drawings but nobody gets to see them and i don’t get to hold them so i kind of really wanted you know i want to be able to hold the work you know i resonate with books my books everywhere in this house i love art books i love reference books i love being able to kind of like delve into different artists in different days so that’s for me you know i kind of want my work in that sort of format as well so they’re self-published i’m self-publishing a self-published uh the first one i’ll be doing the same with this one but yeah so i’m kind of just cracking on so doing a written piece for it myself i’ve invited inviting another artist to kind of do around the piece as well you’ll get a bit of text and thinking behind the work of the drawing but yeah so hopefully later on this year i might have a digital launch party for a new book but we’ll see how exciting i love that idea of holding the work that’s so nice such a lovely way of thinking about it keep us informed if you do have a digital launch that’ll be so fun when you’re talking earlier about gallery openings and things it just made me realize that i missed that you always need to go back and look at the exhibition again but it’s about being with the people isn’t it and i i do miss a good belfast opening oh it’s such strange times yeah and i just miss being able to go and do those things anything cultural you know like we know that kind of the culture is like just one of the things always the hardest hit but it’s hopefully something for the future for all of us yeah definitely we’ve got through a lot and you’ve been so so generous about talking about the personal aspects of your work and your practice and everything is there anything that we haven’t touched on yet today that you would like to mention maybe kind of thinking around advice or you know what it is for younger people i certainly think for young people even going through university at the moment what a very difficult difficult difficult time it is it’s difficult for everybody but you know i know i have friends went and doing masters at the minute and you know we’re in the mainland uk and i mean it’s this storm you know of uncertainty maybe do a little bit discussing around kind of like what it is to advise artists or you know or advise people i always kind of think make your work which is a big advocate of really encouraging people to kind of like make and do the work that they need to be doing so you can if you’re in somebody like you’re in university whatever just make the work i think you can become so consumed by what’s happening and how that’s affecting you that you forget that you’re an artist you forget that you’re making so make the work you don’t find your way in your pathway through that maybe i’m walking no i think that’s really so helpful that’s a really excellent point to make is just do something every day just try to do something even if it’s just a little sketch or cutting up bits of paper whatever it is just do something that proactivity i think’s really really important and i think even just in terms of your mental well-being yeah absolutely yeah i think for anybody even not just anybody at school or college you know it’s engaging in the arts and engaging in that kind of activity is extremely beneficial and it really is a form of therapy you know when you kind of engage in something for 15 minutes half an hour a day and it really really helps so yes i mean there’s a real power behind the arts and unfortunately we’re all too aware that uh the arts get are the first to get shafted but anyway it’s an interesting time for sure but just keep making i think everybody should be making or find a space to make that’s a really excellent point so clinton do you have websites and socials that you’d like to point people towards yeah so i um i actually have two websites tonight i realized so i’ve got my main website which is clinton it’s almost like that sort of showcase of a little bit of history of my work and then i started a new website this year called orange paint books and it’s going to operate as a background to a selling platform for me so it’s a space night where i’m putting up all my work for seal because i realized through this time as well you’re relying quite often on galleries or other spaces to be doing a lot of the work for you and i was just like do you know what why is my work why am i not in charge of my work being for sale so i created and that is going to be where you can find everything i do from courses to the paintings to the drawings whatever and then pretty much the main one that i use is instagram so my social handle is clinton underscore kirkpatrick underscore artist but just type in my name there and you’ll find me that’s the main ones oh that’s brilliant thank you clinton kirkpatrick thank you so very much for your time i have really enjoyed our conversation it’s been so lovely to speak with you properly and to meet you like this and to hear all about your work because i’ve so enjoyed following you on instagram for the past a lot of months thank you thank you thank you it’s been brilliant thank you very much i got introduced to your podcast um from joanna’s one whenever she was doing the movie project so it’s been lovely to kind of follow when i’ve linked in so thank you for having me and uh all the best for the year ahead okay yeah same to you thanks we’ll keep in touch this has been a cozy peapod production with me paula blair the music is common ground by airton used under a creative commons 3.0 non-commercial license and is downloadable from episodes release every other wednesday subscribe on apple podcasts spotify amazon music or wherever you find your podcasts see the show notes for a video link if you need auto captions be part of the conversation with av cultures on facebook and twitter or iv cultures pod on instagram as well as patreon membership one-off support is appreciated at buy me a forward slash pei blair i produce and edit the show by myself and i am grateful for any support for this work for more information and episode links visit thank you so much for listening catch you next time



Audiovisual Cultures – A Little Bit of Good special automated transcript

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hello and welcome to this special co-production between audio visual cultures and monkfish productions i’m your host paula blair and i’m delighted to be joined by claire murphy morgan from monkfish hello claire hello hi paul it’s lovely to be here great to have you and kelly coats from the youth and community charity projects for change hello kelly hello paula great to have you as well kelly the mission at monkfish is to nurture artists through creative interventions in new and unusual spaces they work through the arts to collaborate with a wide range of communities and to support individuals to unlock their creative potential you can see more at projects for change addresses the needs voices and rights of young people working in partnership with others to create youth work projects that help young people develop and flourish into adulthood you can find more at and both of those web addresses will be in the show notes wherever you’re accessing this recording we will hear more from kelly and about the collaboration between projects for change and monkfish shortly for now i’ll hand over to claire who’s going to tell us about monkfish’s current project a little bit of good in the world i am yes thank you very much so a little bit of good in the world is a project that asks us all how can creativity help us to do a little bit of good with what we have where we are and and it’s very much an arts and culture focused project because mungfish productions is an arts organization and it came out of um holocaust memorial day 2020 because one of the things that monkfish was kind of grappling with and we’re still grappling with is that at the moment in the world we’re currently living in a lot of people feel incredibly powerless and they feel that there’s not a lot that they can do but we were really inspired and by and the kind of the stories of of holocaust survivors and of the whole theme of holocaust memorial day 2020 which is standing together and it is very much about a a project that supports people to look at how we can stand together to support each other to make the world a better place for everybody and just by doing your small little good bit of good whether that’s you know saying good morning to your neighbor whether it’s doing something for a friend whether it’s just being kind to a stranger those little tiny bits of good add up into a big good and we felt that as monkfish we wanted to do something really creative around that so we worked with newcastle city councils holocaust memorial day program and the arts team at newcastle city council to facilitate a workshop about a little bit of good in the world and it was a theater drama based workshop which supported a lot of participants to explore what doing a little bit of good meant for them and it was it was an absolutely fascinating workshop pre-culvert 19 i have to say so the world is a very very different place to what it was on the 27th of january which is of course holocaust memorial day and so we were able to kind of get some ideas from that group and we were delighted to be able to work alongside projects for change because there was a project related to holocaust memorial day or connected to it called 75 memorial flames which marked the 75th anniversary of the liberation of ausfitch berka now and it was asking community groups from across the uk to make their own memorial flame which could be included or uh featured in a national uh commemoration exhibition at the holocaust memorial national ceremony and so we were delighted to go down to london with some of the wonderful young people with projects for change and with the arts team at newcastle city council and and the project’s kind of grown and developed um since then and we’re working really closely with projects for change on the next sort of exciting little bit of good in the world journey and so that’s something that we’re really excited about so going forward we’re trying to sort of get a sense of what a little bit of good in the world means as a bigger project and it’s a new project it’s growing all the time but it’s emerging um in a really exciting phase at the moment and monkfish has come up with sort of four the four c’s if you like of a little bit of good in the world and i’d like to to share with you now what those four c’s are which kind of has come out of our work with projects for change and also the workshop that we ran on as as part of holocaust memorial day on the 27th of january um so i’ve got by magic a little power point here which i’d just like to to share with you all the main kind of focus of a little bit of good in the world the kind of the main sort of uh talisman if you like is this quote from the marvelous desmond tutu who um for those of you who may not know who desmond tutu is he’s a leading light in the campaign against apartheid in south africa and uh was archbishop in south africa for a long time and he um is very inspirational very committed to social justice and we felt uh that this quote just summed up beautifully what we wanted to do uh do your little bit of good where you are it’s those little bits of good put together that overwhelmed the world and that kind of set us on the journey for a little bit of good in the world so the four c’s of a little bit of good in the world creativity obviously monkfish is an arts organization it’s what we do and we are really committed to how creativity and the arts can be a focus for doing good with where we are and and with what we’ve got and how kind of creativity can develop um a really exciting set of opportunities for people to work together but also how being creative and how taking part in arts and culture can’t help people to express how they’re feeling and to um share that really how to to kind of express and share that with with the world and we work in a variety of different arts contacts so this picture is from late shows in newcastle which is a free open to all uh cultural activity that happens every year and this was our music residency and it just allowed people to come through the door be creative make sound together and through make and sound create an interesting space so creativity can be at the heart of what we do and be at the heart of

communities the next c is connection so the other sort of aspect and focus of a little bit of good in the world is looking at how those creative bits of good connect with each other for lasting positive impact and how can artistic or create a creative activity help us to make those connections happen and we’re really delighted to be for example working with arts and projects around the city including projects for change which obviously we’ll talk a little bit about later on the third c is critical thinking and we think that this is really important part of a little bit of good in the world about how creativity and connecting with each other can help us to challenge bigotry polarization discrimination isolation misinformation there’s a lot of conspiracy theories flying around the internet at the moment for example how can being create us help us to ask some really interesting critical questions and support people to perhaps in interpret information or misinformation that’s put in front of them that keeps them apart from others and our final c is citizenship so if you’re thinking about creativity connecting with others developing your own critical thinking it allows us to be active citizens and thinking about our place in the world and how we can work together to affect that positive change for each other and how arts and creativity and culture can really sort of help us to do that so those are the kind of aspects that we think could support people to be active citizens and creativity and arts can absolutely be at the heart of that so going forward those are the kind of the things that we thought could really underpin a little bit of good in the world so it’s going to develop as a as a longer term project that monkfish will be sorting and facilitating and and co-leading with other arts and community organizations and with artists as well

thanks so much claire a little bit about a little bit of good in the world excellent thank you so much claire kelly can i bring you and i to tell us um a bit more about projects for change and uh to um maybe talk about the current project that you’re working on with monkfish as well okay thanks paula um well projects for change has been going um just two years now we’ve been running projects for a year and a half even though it feels like much longer um and projects of change came about really um due to a decline in youth provision nationally due to austerity um and we have this idea that you know every young person should be able to access youth provision on their doorstep you know they shouldn’t have to um step on a bus they shouldn’t have to go elsewhere it should be there and freely available um and since we got up and running with our first ever project which is called the changemaker volunteer project um a year and a half ago um it’s been absolutely non-stop and we’ve had lots of opportunities to really work quite closely with lots of different people um and working with the monkfish um arts has been wonderful our young people get a lot from working um around the arts um because they get to be engaged in questions you know questions that people don’t often ask them um and you get their unique perspective and that’s what working with claire kind of gives these young people a voice um and so the young many of the young people have met claire before during the 75 flames project and but now she’s come back and she’s that familiar face so the young people already know her they’ve spent some time with us some of them quite a lot of time when they visited london um but here she is and she’s asking the young people these these questions about their lives you know how’s lockdown been for you and how has it impacted you how has it changed your community um i mean two of our young people um from our polish have polish descent and so there’s a there’s a there’s you know there’s lots of different perspectives there you know one of our young people’s very who’s involved is very arty and she sees the world through that kind of lens um and they’re coming up with this amazing stuff and they’re all having very different experiences of lockdown and they’re coming up with this alternative view which isn’t a mainstream view it isn’t the view that’s pumped out through the media or any other place really it’s unique to them and i think that’s what’s really special about it that you know young people don’t often get asked those really important questions about um what is what does doing good mean to you um you know how has the current climate of what’s going on how has that affected your life how can you make a difference within this context and it’s been you know it’s been really uplifting to have this project after lockdown and help young people to um process processing come to terms with everything that’s gone on it’s been a real it’s been a real pleasure thank you so much kelly that’s brilliant that’s really encouraging to hear would either of you like to elaborate on anything because we’ve had some really lovely examples there of the music and the 75 flames do you have any other examples or things that you see that you that the two initiatives will come together to do in the future shall i talk a little bit callie about the res arts residency that’s literally about to come up any day now shall i talk about that um so we are literally in the very final few days of their of um of doing a call out for an artist in residence a visual artist to come and work with the young people and up at projects for change in the outer west of newcastle um which is a group two groups of young people have been meeting in a in a kind of a detached youth work setting in new bigon hall and also in calgary and um as kelly was saying i’ve visited with my monkfish hat on gone and visited the young people to talk about what’s really important to them and what kind of key issues and topics are really important to them as young people so for example nature reclaiming spaces and self-care friendship and connecting there’s a number of different um areas of life that are just so important to them so we i’ve done a call out and for visual artists an open call out for visual artists to come and and put forward some proposals for how they might work with uh the projects for change team of young people to make new visual art space work in response to the the brief that the young people have put forward which covered a lot of those themes and so the deadline for that is actually next week and we’re looking forward to seeing what artists out there have by the way of ideas which we can put in front of young people and and see what they would be potentially interested in working on as as a program of activity so and again it’s on the theme of doing good of of what it means to do good and and and also about supporting those young people as cali was touching on as active citizens as young people as people who really care about their local community so that’s kind of the next phase of of this project and and we’re hoping that it will be a long term um opportunity for us to do more exciting work with projects for change and in partnership and it’s been a huge privilege from my point of view to work with cali and the young people because i just think they’re amazing and i’m really looking forward to seeing what this artistic residency is going to bring

great thanks claire and kelly uh because you’re working directly with the young people and the communities involved are you finding at the moment that the activities might be helping even beyond the surface they might actually be helping with well-being and and you further ramifications such as that yeah i think claire claire touched on the idea of connection which is really important and we’ve kept in touch with a lot of our young people online but there’s a set there’s a section of our young people who don’t communicate well online and some of them don’t have internet access or the technology to connect with other people like that and so meeting them out and detached youth wig has been the ideal opportunity to just check in with them and make sure that they’re all right um but i think it can’t be underestimated the effect that lockdown’s had on young people um especially where young people have had their education interrupted at really sort of pivotal times and so you’re talking people who are about to take their gcses people who are mid-floor about to do their a levels people about to go to university um and actually there’s been a lot of um there’s been a lot of mental health sort of issues a lot of staying in their room you know a lot looking at the same four walls being confused about what day it is kind of losing all of their routines um and also being confused about um the messages that have been put out there as well about you know what they’re supposed to be doing um and i think that it’s gonna take up it’s gonna take a lot of effort from people in you know all sections of society to try and young people through that um and that’s our next step really and um doing work with the arts is another way of helping young people so art is um understood by a lot of people as being very healing and we’ve we’ve recently done a a mural with them a very small group of young people and i think for them that really benefited them and getting involved with moonfish art it’s going to be something else that they can focus on they can pull their attention into they can they can off they can bring themselves and their ideas to it um they can have some positive outcomes for themselves that’ll raise their self-esteem because it’s very easy when you haven’t got a structure within your day to kind of slip slip back into a lot of um self self dislike um you know feeling low that’s very that’s ordinary you know that in these circumstances that’s kind of a normal reaction to you know being isolated and spending a lot of time alone maybe a lot of too much time online and all of those things so i think anything that we can do to work with the young people to try and coax them out of that um isolation to try and include them and get them connected with the community is absolutely 100 the way to go i would say

i think it’s about supporting young people to to to have their voices heard as well and about trying to find accessible and creative ways to do that as well um it’s just something that is just so important as citizens of now and and adults of the future

it’s really important i think to bring that access to the arts to them as well because especially as you were mentioning kelly with their school being interrupted you how many of them have art supplies in their homes and all sorts of things you know and to be able to to bring something to them and to build up trust and to let them experiment with things and try out what well you don’t necessarily have to be good at some things that’s another sense of the word good as well it’s you don’t have to be the best at it or brilliant at it but you can enjoy it enjoy it for the love of it and um being part of a community being part of a group of people doing lots of things and you’re contributing so um there’s a lot to be said about that too

yeah either of you have anything else you would like to add to that i think just watch this space for a little bit of good in the world and and if you want to find out more about the project you can visit the monkfish website and we also have a a little bit of good in the world facebook page as well and is there any uh social media uh sort of uh accounts kelly where we can find out about projects for change as well yeah of course you can follow us on instagram it’s projects for change underscore uk or you can go to our facebook page which is projects space for space change um and also on twitter it’s hashtag um at ppc underscore uk excellent excellent thank you um brilliant so if that’s everything then we’ll wrap up thank you so much for having us yes thank you thank you paula and audio visual cultures thank you very much uh thank you both very much for joining us uh so this has been a joint production from audio visual cultures and monkfish productions funded by arts council england with me paula blair claire murphy morgan and kelly coates do check out and to follow these fantastic initiatives and to see how you can get involved and what they’re up to be part of the conversation with av cultures pod on instagram and av cultures on facebook and twitter the music is common ground by airton used under creative commons 3.0 license thank you so much for joining us for this special collaborative co-production



Audiovisual Cultures episode 62 – Community, Collaboration and Courage International Women’s Day Panel automated transcript

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we need to sound for jobs consulate throw to any podcast recording one knows when judge hassle free throws hello and welcome to audio visual cultures podcast exploring different areas of the arts and cultural production I'm polo player and I'm delighted to present this special episode recorded at the community collaboration encourage event for international women's day twenty twenty organized and hosted by creative producer for placeholder and abstract video artist Rachel Breck which took place at B. indie studios in Newcastle upon Tyne huge thanks our members at Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures for you continue to much valued support and thanks as well to everyone engaging on social media this episode cuts between several speakers introduced throughout the session so there will be some changes and audio quality that I've tried this method as much as possible to listen to the end for details on how you can help support custom proof and those sorts of areas and just so you know there will be a wee bit of swearing a hundred per night chilled D. enjoy this discussion thank you for coming to community collaboration and coverage led by Marxist productions %HESITATION to place holder %HESITATION we are here as part of international women's day in solidarity as people who identify as women or non binary to look at how we can counteract bias isolation prejudice under courage collective ness and support each other through building courage via community and collaboration as part of the discussion we have a few people have joined us here a lot of harm in Austin print make it was also a community worker and activist have clemency Mogan of Memphis productions it's R. ET Dr brings life experiences to spaces and finds new ways of talking to audiences as well as bringing all this together collaboratively we have just been S. independent curator working with emerging all S. and founder of the curatorial collective which is a program of development and support security is outside of the university environment I'm recording for a podcast city with for a playoff or do visual cultures we're going to enter into an agreement today that we will respect each other's diverse city and you know listen to each other and engage in a positive conversation and try to support each other as well as providing counter perspectives and arguments and such we don't have to agree but we can all respect each other I'm going to start with Kira so Kira what is the value of community in a creative environment and what your experience with this and then to the rest of the group after that war or the people's experiences of that as well I think as a socially engaged artists I couldn't make work with the Irish community not only as inspiration can you see also acts as a catalyst for pushing me forward in terms of support a lot of the work that I make is informed by a lot of the active my do I work with a community union called acorn fund terribly and %HESITATION a help people like myself from working class backgrounds are low income backgrounds to challenge the status quo and take things that should be there's like their basic human rights so I think having community involved in my work is just something that's always going to be there when I began making arts or begin a project I always think it bears who's this project for I am really interested in accessibility as a person with a disability accessibility in the act can be quite you know in terms of like if you haven't had an arts education view and feel that you're not awkwardly mobile island off to enter a gallery I prefer to take our house to the people and I see the community as being like my community and people in Newcastle's being like truly vital to everything the project I'm working on at the moment involves the community of terror box so there is one in the east and that's where I live and then one in the west end I used to live in the west and to the Starbucks a state pass every day and I working together with some amazing inspirational people to write a musical advice well I use the term musical very loosely head to write a musical of sorts obeys what it's like to live in a terribly and washed we imagine a tower block blaze team or feel or like in the distant future if they were to be like Joe goes how would people look at that as a relic or are they type of time capsule I think the community is so integral to everything I do and everything I think a base you can't live with the community you live in the community but I've really taken a big leap and making sure that it's deeply ingrained and enmeshed in my work sometimes the music acts gets a bad name people think it's going to be like a load of collages you know or like some bad paintings and I never think that they're like buy clothes and buy paintings but people are like %HESITATION so it's just gonna be lovely thing everyone do it this initiating it'll be great what community arts could be radical Katie and can be about taking charge of the situation for me it's a base in reaching a community and helping people to see their own work and also to impact people's mental health positively because it's something that I struggle with and I think if the girls are going to provide any sort of leisure services or aren't going to phone the NHS very well also we need these sort of things to cling on to how do you feel that gender can essentially mean that you require a community to support you because of your identity yeah I mean it's no secret as a person who identifies on the transfection and he was also L. G. B. T. Q. that's there's a lot of opposition to the US in the world I've found new castle thankfully to be a very open and accepting place I wasn't able to be acts as buy or non binary or time reading and non binary when I was in Ireland and I think moving here really helps me I think in terms of community I was able to make a huge leap in my practice as an artist and suggested my general well being by becoming more involved with the L. G. B. T. Q. plus %HESITATION H. M. all the letters community I helped find the DJ which is drag gender folk and androgyny and it's a group of people who enjoyed drag as a pastime or as a way of life or as a way to say fuck you to the world or like love used to where I live and with X. staffs organization I don't think I would have become as confidence so amazing not just for like myself but to see younger people I think the youngest track before we have this fourteen in the DJ amazing they're so cute share drive to leave the Harlem but it's really amazing to see hello across multiple ages and multiple gender identities that can really impact young people in a really positive way so I think when there are so many trans people being oppressed and dying and when people are still fighting for the right to get married or at the right to like nas B. merger to for the person that they are I feel incredibly lucky to be in the position that I'm in to be in a welcoming space and yes I think if you are in Ireland and she wants to be a big case somewhere else come to Newcastle what is he colonizing that's another big thing for me is like look at a lot of this sort of stuff right recommend community and in terms of my identity as a non binary person us at Penn sexual person as a way of decolonizing myself and troubling that idea of no offense to the Hampshire room norms of world but it's a bit passe white colonialists tossed meat for that to be the only way for us to live our lives just do you have any thoughts on laughs yeah well I think you may like can you see it is extremely important and definitely I think I've noticed a lot more being a new castle compared to be in Buckham Liverpool origins to Manchester I do think new castle is very honest lads but the same time was so supportive of each other and I think it's great to be here and in the environment more than anything yeah I think it's with that comes a lot of support which I think we only use because you know we all have sinned during the practices which we can all agree every week you probably to get inside our heads and I'm sad I think that was one of the main things which made me stop the crucial collective cause for me as a mission trip yeah I was in this very weird space where you know often traineeships and I've been getting this experience %HESITATION I'm now replying to some other up to school but now the like %HESITATION no go to qualified but then I'm not applying for the entry level curation jobs in institutions and techno you don't have enough experience yet some in the spare we we it's in between you know my husband like okay how do I get from a to B. what do I have to do to get that experience got that spoke about recognition on one thing I did learn was voice not to the community and attends all of the people were in a similar situation as me you know it might often you're totally was like you know autistic whether it be a rise to and that is what it's like in full speed to make a collective and we'd be having these conversations these discussions and just you know being very like minded and supportive of each other of what we can do with a new castle you know it might not be make information available %HESITATION support and %HESITATION maybe driving someone else's development that they got today I think that's really important key to this a little bit about your accusatory looks active please yes Sir with this style is I think was last August so I'm an associate member of the new bridge projects and when I saw this was a conversation I did have with Nairobi who's the program director that she again felt the same way she's what's both sectional loss of around the northeast issues at this loads of all sweatshops and stuff take the flaws but nothing ready for the behind the scenes people involved in exhibitions we had a big discussion about what is a curator because he's gone but years ago is this idea of like the G. D. of K. in a museum but realistically that's not where it is now you have to be able to do market and you have to be able to network you have to be able to install this loads of you know I never do a correction job is the same as the previous one of don I think it's about you know okay well how do we create group %HESITATION we start these conversations and provide these tools which can help people with and there is they probably do struggle with singing of since then we did like a bit of a social see what people wanted to get out of the collective we've been inclusion of the queue right is to come up and have conversations we did a writing workshop for the local rice at right into something I struggle with all the time so I think that's a simple and almost provide an all around spectrum of what people want to get out of school so it is still an ongoing thing and you know if anyone wants to get involved with anyone wants to recommend anything like do get until it's because I'm always wanting more webshop some more discussions on anything is there a website URL or an email address and citizens from the moment curatorial talk lex if I am making a website currently amazing thank you Jess okay hello would you like to add any thoughts on the subject matter twenty three first I'm calling from China China Carolinians me currently thank you so much for coming %HESITATION the castle's buildings and I'm doing a project about the international and state side found this Siemens AG here is my friend the only sighing Helen's knoll and well you know in my country we I don't know maybe I just focus on family and the world but since I came here I found there a loss of communities as the last week we've been to like a workshop there are over twenty hours thirty communities they just help of men to go back to Korea and how to be stronger he's really inspired me since you've been in new castle what's your kind of experience of the arts and creativity and and that sort of thing up what kind of experiences of the hot I guess first class online always smile and that you %HESITATION just stranger but slowly you know how I context will say hello and how are you something like this and there's still my unique life we can't difficult L. challenging for us because the information is not our mother tongue so at the first L. Y. leasing to my teachers talking about I couldn't catch what they're talking about I've been here full hour half years I think my listening it has improved and the talking I think I'm really loves this place is not as easy as a mentor and I think the last time we spoke these people have more time to enjoy your life and not just focus on the work I think do you income challenges as a woman in your educational practicing your preferences D. field tests as a woman you need more community around here I'm really happy to see there's lots of community to help the woman I haven't found in my country maybe they do how that's I just haven't had that in touch with them yeah do you have any thoughts yeah I think for me I've always find it a bit difficult to find my people find my community I think it took years and Belfast's T. become part of the arts community more broadly and then I had to up sticks and come here and I had to move around a lot for a few years and I've settled in new castle for the past three years and I feel like I'm beginning to see signs many people my tribe and quite a bit of my tribe is currently here in this room I think it's something I value which is why I feel like I seek it so I feel like it's it's I'm still accumulating but I have real trust issues as well and I think just on the gender is she I think a lot of my trust husband spends on specifically women who have broken my trust and so I find thoughts a bit of a difficulty that I'm trying to overcome maybe it shouldn't but it hurts a bit more when women have been your police so it's just trying to be overcome not and spell trust again with new people it's something I value a but I'm quite tentative bite if that makes sense I'm still working three community issue yeah I completely understand the perspective that you coming from and %HESITATION I've encountered my own experiences of loss of confidence where I've been in an environment maybe one way or the colleagues who all I did a similar with level as me and same gender or who would be my CD I have made me feel less confident about the work that I do less confident about my ability to achieve things I think it's so important that we support each other and that we give each of the motivation and recognize each of us value and we're already up against huge challenges with regards to gender bias and inequality and so the value of supporting each other so you know important and my experience as an artist is that I've always been to create a since I was a child yes it's only being in Miami must say is now I've only just really started to bring myself out of isolation with I always used to make it home and spend a lot of time on my own and the loss that was about trust as well and so I've moved into B. indie studios which where we are today recording %HESITATION specifically moved here because I was already working in the building so I knew people in the building already and just chose my studio based on the location being essentially alongside this room that we're in right now and the importance of thought was the opportunity to be able to come out of that room and speak to people and meet people and I've already made in two months that I've been here I've made so many connections both of people based in this building and people outside of the building %HESITATION over here today and that's just amazing and the confidence that you get from being around other people who either have similar experiences to you or who you identify with or who you know were all written for you it's just it's one of the most empowering brilliant things that I've ever experienced it's really important that %HESITATION maintain this community because I'm a norm of soft sort of person that will allow myself to retreat into my own soul sort of neurotic vocal and I called like the Hoffman because it affects my creativity at the end of the day absolutely my name's on the post I'm from the northeast and are free before midnight on the northeast for many many years now I can see both sides at the flow of being here and being knocked systems play a bit of time on the west coast of America as well for me I think there are so many layers of community events almost difficult to skip this one woods said what can be applied to so much because of course in the office community there are so many blessings that are closest to a cancer center this is the second biggest comebacks merit it's a wonderful thing to feel part of something but even when you feel hot you could feel very much distance in every single event maybe I caught a forty three members don't feel well enough and all of those things can be difficult for it's still for the fact that many of us I'm sure how many assumptions but no surprise %HESITATION it's no weird feelings towards the office and aside from any kind of US eccentricities be wonderful folks we spend a lot of time on our own it's a lot of the city it is an easy life so community in terms of in the office communities it's essential thing but it's a very living being and it can be very changeable and sometimes difficult to work with book of salubrious sensitive people school together in both so I was thinking about community and more of a %HESITATION identity modern city communities that working class person and representative specially because I'm a poet and poetry it is someone sorry no skin apparently in terms of sales of poultry all time high for recent news which is amazing and I think it's probably because for in trying times and difficult times and people who haven't necessarily been leaning on social sciences find this is the place that they can find expression they can express themselves people songs right proteins Carissa %HESITATION yeah in terms of a percent a sense of working class there's a lot in the country but it's not the first thing that people think about necessarily coaching because it was very much in the early to stay on topic this practice is for everyone so you have to be present in the working class communities just palm Hassel what I do hope that up to the state economy hi am class community oh my goodness what a huge would have resulted in different connotations to every individual here today I think for me looking at community in an artistic context I think I've spent a long time somehow thinking that the great artistic community of the northeast was this great golden circle %HESITATION to conduct penetrate this great Goldenson collective read the wonderful dynamic people on so for a long time I felt very much I. scientific community book now locks start to feel like I'm kinda Grob truly becoming mall appalled after community and being able to a sold it to find it on my own tunes I kind of feel that a lot of those Smith said I had to borrow all too soon the northeast when they submit actually a lot of those people of justice in securing more regions struggling the site that's a B. so I think it's also about breaking down the meal hi but also as well the class is massively important and this somebody who studies are a comprehensive didn't go fee paying school didn't go off experten Cambridgeshire will answer from the northeast feeling not the pasta syndrome somebody was talking about that as well and nothing stopped it for a long time my reality through sort of the films that put it a sort of still very much bag and I think there is still this perception that the all star lanes will somehow kind of quite middle class but actually the vast majority of regular people all hugely creative in one way shape or form and it's about supporting people they give themselves connection also community sounded depictions to feel that they all created beings and that it is since the roe we lost our heads the company but it doesn't have to be it can be let's have it sit together and do some knitting I'm not too old you know it's not kind of creative perspective on nothing poetry is read the excitement of the wrongs of working class people who needs poetry is a medium with which to Sharon expressed that realities reading but I think we'll do the same as well about curation and gate keeping and glad we show our creativity within communities is a real challenge but I think it's really exciting and I also think that it's something that is going to become more and more exciting %HESITATION it's vitally important as we go through a formal yes if the Tories yeah great great yeah months of scam but also lots of opportunities to do just still sorry clappers wondering please K. do you have a good description of what you would say impossible it feels like this is in case if anyone doesn't know what else to do so I think imposter syndrome is about feeling that you all know with you have been happening the particular space on the comp B. two two sometimes with sex or gender a combi today with experiences of class or variety of different sort of identities my understanding of the is it supposed to feed them that they shouldn't be why shouldn't they put Oxley yes the show to the justice entitled to be in some way I was unable to yells but it is a psychological thing it's something that people have developed over a long time because by virtue of the feeling they shouldn't be so let this be the point where they've been told I digress he'll indirect means that difficult no right to be somewhat thought would be my interpretation of that I mean obviously everybody will help them to individual experience office and I think for a lot of people a lot of women in the law of non binary people of people who identify as female I think it's a much sufficient for people to just sort of feel know what money doing here I shouldn't be allowed to be here I think for roses creative people it's about creating spaces where people feel they should include the cops would be a welcome to please select the number of the people's taste call not only do I agree with you and I think whatever your gender or your upbringing is imposter syndrome kind of makes us home when you've got a cocktail of things if I think back to base when I lived in Ireland and when I moved here I mean I had a bit of imposter syndrome and %HESITATION and it might have been that I was a bit younger but more from the follies of youth I'm not usually %HESITATION now speaking on the idea of seeing like you know like to be somewhere I was never more aware of how different I was and when I moved to this country because I wasn't aware I had a class until I moved here I wasn't aware of this I had a funny accents or obviously I was aware of history unfortunately not many people in this country are more into Tories yeah I wasn't aware of all the sort of thing so getting a big opportunity like this project that I'm working on every day I'm like I'm just a little baby pence sexual non binary immigrants from the backers of know where those come over here what have I got to do or say or sometimes I feel a bit weird but like getting a nice group of ragtag Georgie's together and like and I'm not like a true Georgie and I work for grades so I'm a little bit like a golf tournaments and but yeah I think it's imposter syndrome homes to you when you least expect it and also when you most expect it's it's just kind of %HESITATION yeah actually I wasn't as scared as a bears what I was a lie which to do until late moved here and that goes for like England's ands nas necessary new castle as a place I'm talking about culturally in this country because I mean they're super super and sports appeared yeah I wasn't ready for that I wasn't ready for that sort of weird indirect questioning of who I am and what I'm even here yeah and then it's obviously all fell apart from brexit happens that's a lot to contend with that's my take on I mean I think for me especially being a cure right yeah a lot of big curate is especially from London all white middle class men hate spring the open I'm gonna bring opal it's just I said I feel like all the time when I'm doing stuff I question myself as a woman I'm like should I be doing this should have been put on this big exhibition I don't know I shouldn't but I feel like it's just looking back to raise of history that I am like I shouldn't be here I should be doing this off the time and I don't even know why I think not because you know even like a lot of of self friends at the new bridge projects and like even I come from such a great family where all the women in my family have some strong like with us we've got like a women's like what's hot shot I like it when I have a life don't know cells which is you know I'll always get messages like just stop like you know get out of this mindset like you doing great and I think it's almost is trying to always remind yourself that that you know impose syndrome is also like a counter reaction of fuel and Janie as well and I think you have to think about the Cheney %HESITATION wrong as individuals but just remember it's a really valuable thing that I asked my friend Leslie guy once told me when I was getting the base imposter syndrome eight that's the patriot Seoul don't let yourselves and I was like any time I feel the bass imposters like the patriarchate if she could do that either way I'm just like if I have a second double like white middle class men in my role to go to the women who are surrounded me and got that support Chinese and I think that's important as women that we all do in not in the creative arts in this there is a saying that you should approach things with the confidence of a mediocre white middle class man because almost like any other super again Weiss middle class mediocre men can have problems too and I'm not denying that S. yeah he's right there if you're listening I think one of the most interesting arguments I've heard recently is this if well educated middle class men who all whites all struggling then the social you know and and you know if if you hear of people in those environments struggling at that shows this we have even more reason to be coming together and supporting each other I was knocked man and %HESITATION as creative people %HESITATION as people who want to make things happen I'm one of the supportive of both the people and celebrates accuracy is impossible something that people experience in China is that a similar do you have the terminologies for that kind of experience do you have something similar %HESITATION is there anything that you can relate to because I'm asking this question for my own ignorance to a certain extent in that I don't know if it's an internationally valid experience or whatever whether there's something is there a term or a similar wording full of the experience of when you all at work or you in an environment that you feel out of place please if I have some problem travel I think only my family all my relatives come help me like I mentioned though I didn't send any community and all kind of help heal like how a child to and to talk about your experience let's take together no I haven't I think system your family and the relatives that's a really interesting point because I think you family all so important yes sometimes families can be part of the problem as well as a most times before I came here I worked for almost three years and they find a problem with my work I prefer to talk to my friends I think they can give me some advice that I tell the sides not to like my heart is maybe our meal off something is different and even sometimes they kill me someone last I'd still does habits yeah do you feel as a woman dies you feel different to the men in your places of work in in your educational environment the interesting because my major is international multimedia journalism my position in my company was Jennifer Staab presenter all of the presenter %HESITATION girls the law is yeah but are simple life there %HESITATION now that's a mon managing a group of women and Jana sing that rex spectate shins yeah that's really interesting yeah I think it's quite difficult for a woman to be us provide there why do you that is the household name especially when you'll get married you need to balance the life and work you know you don't how much energy to put in your work so I think just my opinion I think maybe the lost her for to kill promotion was not I think I think it's really important for us to be conscious of the fact that our experience nationally and heroes someone from Ireland we have so many different perspectives around the world and that what we're experiencing here is very different to maybe what you experience in China %HESITATION and stop balance of your ability to think about your work and your life as a woman is so different would you say that the expectation to get married for example in China was I guess the question I want to ask you is in China if you decided I'm not going to get married %HESITATION and I'm not going to go into business and I'm going to be an all is what without experience be like for you would you you know do you know people who've who made decisions like that he said I'm not going to marry I'm not going to work I'm to make often gonna make music yeah I'll call friends she was my classmate we lived together she said %HESITATION accountants now has a boyfriend I don't know why but she told me she bill months again marriages hello marriage is quite difficult maybe I guess she just smiled focus on her work her job and she's doing well he's doing really well in in her own position and last year I eat we talked and she told me about race the her salary excellent that's wonderful cool even the imposter syndrome well I am a working class person from what's called a P. U. L. community in Belfast the Protestant unionist loyalists identity and I did an arts and humanities PhD so yes I am well acquainted because you're not supposed to do any of these things you're not supposed to get an education or B. RT farting where I come from so that's probably an indication behaving quite rebellious but also it's amazing hi many from that community are really rebellious and do those things people from working class backgrounds there's just something intrinsically artistic up white people and they need and desire and I know that you have to break through a lot of social norms to be yourself even if yourself isn't really that radicalization to the rest of society you know twenty twenty four assists are considering my own constant imposter syndrome and how it feels like it can live very much in you working you can spend two days waiting on a roll you write something down you're doing something else to say like what do you do and why you doing this and aside from any issues with your and your lucky nope within all of us I think the sun realty is a female descent person all this is that it's almost like it's been in greens in nearby I've come from a musical background as well and I would President Johnson bonds that never ever regarded itself as a female fronted bond for every single bill you on there like well dressed female came to bones no smell the necessary things to get people to comb and then now I feel like I have this kind of issue with being written down or recorded us feminists ports and please don't smoke free right away to school science and heard because my work is going to be program and it's going to be a pro and marginalized persons and groups but lots of movies I want to help the female artists we don't have that and then the office analysts at this late I realize this because it's something it's a gas problems that white people do I don't know but it bothers me I can't recall the spot a little phone bills I think it's putting you in your place it is maybe we should start using the term %HESITATION this mail postal mail radio broadcasting hello this male journalists like so many years of being the only woman on a bill and then your way to the top of the children C. mobile service do you mind and everything going for the men and that's very frustrating so that on my own of course there was an imposter syndrome when you make in the woods when this is what you'll be met with way more often than not for every for street in port that's why I guess to go back you need to have things like community and we need to build each other up and realize that you call a syndrome means with that in mind I guess when I asked Kay and %HESITATION how kind collaboration empower us and why should we collaborate on he couldn't do huge chunk of what I do with that collaborates and %HESITATION basically in my work mainly now this creative producer among fish production side would come with a huge range of different all this and creative people in all sorts of settings using a range of difference all forums whether tops music soundscape vision loss the act that may K. %HESITATION huge Paul thought this collaboration on a spool sort of thinking about why I think collaboration is important for me is given the sort of the current climate that worldly mommy Kareena walked troops if you like for twenty twenty off walk cold three scenes connective itty so connecting with others and I don't necessarily mean this justice in an artistic or creative way but generally is connecting with as many people as I possibly calm and also not necessarily online I think we do a lot of spending time online %HESITATION dust sprays but sometimes it's not grease compaction and I told me not in a cool complexions so quick but maybe I do but I mean compassionate really strong power a full way connected in the complexion with so that is a critical thinking thinking critically thinking about the world from a range of different perspectives I'm one of looked at those three watchwords of full cooperation is absolutely key from my perspective to make an old of those three things happened and as a creative person making those things happen so connected with %HESITATION there is hope and compassion and support me on to this to think critically and I think collaboration as of Oct of solidarity so whether you're working with another office to make some than what you would do with the community to make or to engage together and make something happen solidarity on low fought with it it's a really active it's not a possibility we talk about the act of solidarity and I think in terms of international women's day and while we all as just one example of those many things I think that's really important to build each other up I think collaboration is really important for all of us here in terms of support in building each other up I think if rich's might create practice whenever I'm working with somebody it allows me to see something from a range of different perspectives %HESITATION it supports me to make working the way I look the Wiest wouldn't even think about Mary Kay so I think that's really important I think eighteen tombs all of the current climate cooperation over competition I think it is absolutely important strategically as alternatives to talk about the patriarchy the ghost of patriarchy and as an alternative to capitalism and neoliberalism the idea of cooperation and the power of thought the power to do that and I think that's why it's no accident the humanities and all in creative subjects are being hammered out with universities and how may doubt spoon because they don't want to creative critical thinking skills I'm not sweat our work as creatives is just so valuable to smash in the system basically keeping it going and keep a hold of communities go with and I think yeah in the current climate keep in those stories flowing and providing women and non binary and female people with the space to remarks in the Oldham option noble and dream for what can be dreamed and strong enough to support each other to make real the realities of the spaces we wish to say shopping is really important and I just found this on low for this quote real queens fix each other's crowns are not just hold that thought leadership thing about because I thought that was just a really lovely thing in terms of cooperation and working together I just thought that was a really lovely thing to do and a lovely thing to think about this and also I found a quote which I thought was really interesting for me Dana champagne cold I need to open I'm sorry if I'm gonna have pronunciation right if I need when women lead to slight committees do not feel the inequality we tend to forget something is not working and I think that's a with a shot across the bows about intersectional let's see %HESITATION you know I'm very conscious that to all intents and purposes on the white woman and you know what I experience a range of the privileges %HESITATION you know to be mindful of the fact that it's been mindful of old all wine to different experiences as women put that goal box collaboration I think it Gadot as huge opportunity to learn from other people who have a variety of life experiences and that was the full set of cable with but I think the power that we have this collaboration and the power to smash the patriarchy basically through continued to collaborate and be creative we need creative people now like the finance it needs great people check I would like to ask Jess you fools on the process of wanting to take a Cray if possible make a new creative path in your life than you would if you practice but feeling like you might have constrains by society by culture by gender by finance how do we encourage each other to kind of make the big league so small changes to work towards getting to where we want to be in how do we encourage each other to do that I think this is something I've rarely felt recently so I went from being in in a full time job for like two years and then I've recently holds about six months ago now I left and came down to part time and during that time I was in that job world even those in the office you almost got yourself in a mindset okay I'm still being creative I'm into all its related job this is okay and then about three or four months and I was very young women I'm not to my curation I'm not do not want to do and when I was kind of cheesy city were free not still I'd have to take a whole day in my role I'm like why not okay the anyway I then left that job role and became part time I'm on my finances all I you know I am struggling a lot right now full the amount of opportunities are hot and you know my curation taken off of No Way diving just said if I was still in that job role it probably take me about two years still been in the jungle to get what I've done in the past six months don't find not the saw that it's almost like a juggling process and I think we should get those creative people as well you know a lot of people will have the job the family at the house and you know a past %HESITATION my first week the oldest them plus a creative practice I think we just got so forgetful not sometimes I think I've definitely learnt recently that it needs to be that I need to listen to myself from where I am right now and that is okay I got a third of that feeds into this whole process syndromic I am I think we get so drilled into comparisons to all those in the %HESITATION what they're doing right now they sometimes do to think okay realistically what do I need right now but even I'm thinking now okay maybe I need to get these projects some watch online deal and then maybe go back into full time for a bit I can get a bit more money and then drop it down again maybe that awaits me I think it's been mindful and supportive of the people around you is while he may be I can go through a similar situation and then speaking in terms of society and culture so I whipped full the Liverpool biennial in two thousand eighteen as a curatorial training AT I'm we were having a chat with a lot of the women who were in the office and I actually hot one of my colleagues asked me canasta SO you ever want to have kids in your life as a something of thinking about it like what the time was like I'm twenty three now it can be this is way off and she was like I'm gonna tell you this now as a support women in the industry do not have children until you are in a comfortable role where if you take a densely you can jump right back in and I was like what was that was I think she was I'm telling you now it's been loads of women who she knows what they've taken maternity leave %HESITATION they've gone back into the organization and then they just drop the light up and then they also help stop the creative path again that's really not okay %HESITATION needs to be voice not unusual voices women to change that in the industry it is important as women that we all not just be mindful self mean mindful of the women around us who we get support from I'm checking in with everyone and seeing if they're okay what advice would you give to someone in a situation where they were like I feel trapped in well I'm in now when I want to get to a certain place you talk about believing in yourself yeah that's obviously a huge step in I remember someone saying to me not that long ago believe in yourself it sent a shiver up my spine yeah because I was like wow that's the first step post it's not the only step because the so many so many challenges and I'm just wondering how we can advise people almost or five P. is to go understand everyone passing understand the room needs you know how did you come to that point really well did you or did you just suddenly just fall into it I guess but the alternative is that sometimes it doesn't necessarily involve is thrown out the whole process sometimes you just find ourselves in situations that what would you say to another person who was finding itself in a similar environment to the terms he I do think I have been quite lucky in the opportunities I've hot well I am very driven myself anyway I have such a strong work ethic and I again I don't have to stay in with class and northern of always been able to think you know what if I want something I'm gonna have to with bloody hot together I will get it well I'm going to have to wait for the hot I'm almost always set up to make public since I was like in ages I think that is just important in yourself I think that has always been my drive to be like okay I'm going to be a great cure it one day well it's going to be hard to is to get the I do not think it should go back to the scientific community and collaboration not we should be using our voice with people I'm just really been supportive because I know that my Cheney is completely different to the express and sit next to me and I think my advice would be to maybe it's okay to take a step back and reflect on your Cheney on what you're doing and all the people in your community and going that way too you can have these conversations with to be honest and open minded and just be you know this is where I wanna go how do I get that old even if its financial advice even times if I'm working full time both got a family to Rome I wanted to make her practice is there a way of me trying to juggle a lot I think it's just about reflection with anything convince full of one of the I was just when Jeff was talking I was reminded of this really great campaign that was started in Ireland called waking the feminists that was a bag is essentially challenging the gender bias in arts and critically and future in Ireland this happened after the centenary of the nineteen sixteen rising in twenty sixteen the abbey seizure which is the theater in Ireland commissions I can't remember the exact amount of place that they'd commissioned or writers of the commission of the charge of the moment I think it was two women yes two women out of sixteen all the women and people of the country were like hi yes wash is going on I was just thinking about use this really powerful thing that I read in a thesis last grown you Pollock ropes called staying awake which was Iran's the waking the feminists think she wrote it for her masters and they submitted powerful quotes in advance the idea of you have to go away to make a human person and then you come back and says women often find themselves marginalized and stigmatized and aren't likely to be defined by the superiors as not committed to a career this leasing opportunities for upward advancement however or last this is the person that the coaches also pointed at motherhood actually helped her work life balance she said I started leaving at five o'clock because I have to crash pickups and that was the first time in my life that I kept my hours so it kind of was helping to keep we believe that having my kids made me a more balanced and better worker bush for those who do resume their careers and future some find their views through a new unfavorable lands palm voids and Irish writer and actor articulates a subtle manifestation of this being a motor instantly ranges you as less of a thinker less ambitious less interesting Fiona recalls feeling like this really old housewife that was coming out and trying to pretend to be an artist %HESITATION her return to the sector one female artist or artist as we like thank you for the purpose of this as I think it's important that they specify the response of the arts council commissions research on the living and working conditions of arts and art and expressed an active decision not to have children as a result of the lack of support I would never have children she says I chose my path knowing the conditions that lay ahead but could not subject them on children not without some financial security so this is not a new thing it's not and in a lot of this activist work or even just working S. I mean my activism and being an actress or very much complacent in doctor refer spect I always try to think about people and their families and how that fits in so when I was starting this project called most of it is sky the musical of sorts I made sure that I told people who wanted to be part of the project status people with children are welcome that children can be involved not to worry about commitments arrange childcare bring them with you if you want to be part of this it's totally fine and the same thing in terms of activism with acorn one of our youngest acorn heads is %HESITATION wonderful little girl calls later his two and a half your parents are amazing I think the person who I look up to last as a researcher is her mother winds that blow she's a researcher at Newcastle University our branch here in new castle new castle a cornice specifically very open at base grace and children in activism and we were thinking about use how do we facilitate coming crash stuff he has unique bass and I think in the world to where more we've been down binary people trans people even trans men who might be wanting to have children we need to start thinking about yourself hello we provides the sort of services I think employers in the arts sector you need to be a lot more proactive and you know a lot more understanding of Asian family life and stuff like that I mean it's not necessarily a big thing for me most I would fight to the ends of the earth to have that for somebody else again it comes back to that idea to supporting each other and working together and listening I think listening is a big thing sometimes just having an ear to run tests or I would say that a lot of the people who participated in the research for waking the feminists were just really happy to be able to be listened to what about the issues that they were experiencing as women and people making future making creative stuff in Ireland and I'm sure it's the same situation here there just hasn't been a countrywide speak thing I mean this is a big country with a bigger population I think the fact that you're running curatorial collective is a really great thanks to the makes me really proud to be your friend but I mean just just one not really weird though that you know it's twenty twenty and I was sad that I need to worry about if I want to have a child in the future is not okay is not normal I mean I'm sure we all think that as women anyway people especially in the creative sector I think to start a movement I feel like maybe it needs to be you know something we do speak about more because you know even this conversation how to just in the containers a couple shows kind of thing radical crashes yeah radical approaches her rental leave I think we need to be more Raj but that's always my and isolation yeah so I'm gonna read she just sort of thing because well there's a white full size class strings that are about having a family and also for people who maybe want a different work life balance so one of the different lifestyle why should people be excluded from the arts and creative industries because they won't finally old because they have elderly relatives to care for all that the woman to science hall for them life we can creatively Avenue the halls with something else that they want to do that it seems that it's a wine to discussion of bites how industries all constructed its mountains that is incredibly toxic patriarchal this is what you do nine times out of ten for a lot of people that this is what they do people have lives outside and I think it makes for a more creative people to know all the food in the midnight common goal every single night to get an exhibition will probably show waldholtz whatever G. so I think it just feels incredibly punishing to the same quarter they set to use for example %HESITATION you know don't have any elderly relatives will be a United supporter okay I rolled a spam so RuPaul who needs additional support to lower you know but I think it's really interesting as well in terms of gender it's really just wanna go head dresses the only time I read read women's magazines and you see the man and should be done about the scenes of let Justin if you and then you see the women in the field and this is always my res with so many children or not mom didn't doesn't have children still lots late and I was always very mindful of the writer and journalist Caitlin Moran he said she was at the B. nas when he helping children no but when the option good option in an interview just about musical writing what happened and she kind of fell is this a way of people she saves me when he couldn't get lost when you gonna make space for a bloke to common to inhabit the space inside the box really interested or when you're going to make space for the next woman or person who can become pregnant take your space for that little bit of time so they can have their like you know a couple of years of a career and a lady like fade into obscurity this is miss I think there's another aspect of this as well which is the idea that will so openly and comfortably ask you such personal questions about your decisions on your body the idea that it's okay to ask somebody that acts I mean it's not too I do believe it is anyway and less you personally know the more you you know have a logical reason to be asking that question you wouldn't say someone so what's going on with your bottles okay tell me about your loans to you do you don't I mean you wouldn't ask someone a personal question about the body at the end of the day it's not just about your lifestyle it's not just about you'll would call you'll eat like Hugh you also also proxy choosing to allow your body to do something that's so personal the fact that we can ask someone a question about having a child and that's okay in your place of work someone could say to you %HESITATION you're going to have children but you wouldn't save them so %HESITATION did you have sex last night do you know what I mean it's not actually they're completely links like why is that okay and other things on okay in the is something about the way that we just expect that women are going to make those decisions and actually you know this is such a multitude of reasons why someone might not want to have children who might not be able to have children and actually asking someone a question like that you don't know who you're sending offering potentially you don't even know if they were signs that gender that they have it this semester you could be talking to someone who actually talked to a child because there's so many reasons why those conversations shouldn't be forced upon us we can choose to have them and have them in the in the environment that we want to with the people that we want to have them with but the idea that those questions should be false promises just seems bogus to me %HESITATION saved from my enemies who is not celebrity who was asked in an interview well I have favorite position walls of Simeon this expedition have responsible CEO I was like yeah yeah even just not questions like why was she even assign an interview it was a radio interview Stephen ask Amanda you know on Facebook when like I mean I don't enjoy Facebook you don't like things and I still have one for some reason but you know what it's like your Facebook memories I thought it was such an after memory for today it was from a couple years ago and it was a status that I put up I was like on the eve of international women's day I waited with bated breath to see if one of the top human rights lawyers in the world would just be spoken to about her amazing accolades as a human rights lawyer but no they asked her how her marriage was going with George Clooney only god's amount Clooney is amazing she's an amazing human rights lawyer what are you doing why are you asking about it what's it like to be married to the most handsome man of the world who cares nobody asked him what's it like to be married to one of the top human rights lawyers in the world that's right when we talk about it in this kind of lands it is so crazy that this is the norm it's because I'm the big talk I always feel very on the outside because it's almost like it's just not possible to me because it's not something I've ever been to I know loves books my response whether it's from family friends strangers della is always polite and also and so set up so you'll change it to nine come on no why can't you just have a definite answer %HESITATION pretty certain most often I don't think that needs to be fit to face %HESITATION bus but it's very very frustrating and I feel like in terms of optimism and continuing the conversation and some option and looking over the narrative you just have to keep questioning %HESITATION I guess being not arrested Patel indignities views to people because they suddenly the questions are going to keep on communities opinions also live on the cost of this technology shift opinions of concern conscription down because that's the only way forward with these things I just wanted to see if there was anything else that Poland wanted to act any thoughts on yeah probably if he just a quick thought on the interrogations over pregnancy and parenthood and so on one difficulty is being interrogated so much and make she wonder I don't know what my reasons are any more for making a decision one way or another because I'm not sure how you want to talk to me I have anymore so that's just a really quick point of mine that I suppose it's a nice opportunity to say that I suppose on the issue of collaboration and hopefully the speak see what we're talking about more broadly as well I just thought of it the podcast is a nice example of that because for me personally I've been trying to transition from somebody he analyzes culture to somebody he produces culture on this podcast is a way of trying to do both at the same time so it straddling these different identities I started it for me to see can I do this but also as is happening status the reading of the thing is I wanted to be able to use that to platform other people so this is a really nice collaborative effort that I hope will be the first of many more to come so thank you all so much so it took by lifting each other up putting each other out for me and just being a part of that's really nice thank you offer to sing it right now it is so wonderful wonderful work do you have any thoughts on that means the things I've talked about %HESITATION this lovely to be here and something to talk about I am not responsible maybe I'll get pregnant I thought the food this is nothing but it's normal for me but today and all is non normal is tending quality right so asking woman yeah why do I do I still none this question do you remember the last time someone asked you about whether or not you would be able to live there is a Helen to being asked about to Linda along again R. E. yeah I'll listen being asked this question is my house is my thing is none of your business how does it make you feel if someone asks you do you want to get married only very annoying on this question until six while this is being so feel like this is the beginning of something to be continued I think maybe that's yes maybe that's why we can go from there you've been listening to audio visual cultures this me Paula Blair Rachel Grech Claire Murphy Morgan Carolina hand Jessica Bennett Jenny McDermott's and Caroline this episode was produced by Rachel Breck recorded by Paula Blair and reach a brick an edited by Paul the player the music is common ground fair to licensed under a creative Commons noncommercial three point zero attribution and is available at the SEC mixer don't work episodes are released every other Wednesday subscribe on your podcast app so you never miss any release we can't currently cover the costs of hosting but the fill back catalogue can be fined on my you tube channel if you search for P. A. prior and it's also linked patrie on on the episode PH of audio visual cultures DOT wordpress dot com if you can contribute funding to continue this work regular donations to the leper at pay dot com forward slash PP a player for one of two nations to pay pal dot me forward slash PP a prior are hugely appreciated be part of the conversation with AP cultures post on Instagram and Davey cultures on Facebook and Twitter thank you so very much for listening caption next time