Hello this is Audiovisual Cultures, the podcast that explores sound and image-based cultural production. I'm the creator and host Paula Blair. This time I'm delighted to be joined by artists Sarah-Joy Ford and Juliet Fleming to talk about their collaborative exhibition entitled Hard Craft at Vane gallery in Newcastle upon Tyne and that happened from the fifteenth of November to the fifteenth of December 2018. Thanks to Sarah-Joy and Juliet for giving so much of their time to talk through their work in detail and many thanks to everyone at Vane for accommodating us in the gallery and giving us some tea while we chatted. You can get more information about Vane and its exhibitions at vane.org.uk. Do you enjoy the discussion.
<SJF> Hi I'm Sarah-Joy Ford and I'm an artist and curator and a researcher. I work in textiles, mostly quilt-making and dealing with feminist and lesbian histories and how quilt-making can be a vehicle for exploring those.
<JF> hi I'm Juliet Fleming I am an artist and curator and director of gold tops from this gallery space around the corner from thing and my work deals with female experience the twenty first century using symbols like Peter S. as embodiment of what they get here activation and Fabian and you cast upon Tyne this call hard craft would either V. like two expenses a collaborative exhibition you me it's in designs quite a few of the works together is not right we started working together about two years ago and we've been working on and off making different things and then this year is the year of one hundred years of pop the fridge in the U. K. and it seems like the sort of option moments to look up the research different elements of the suffrage movement and responds to it without books and here is what how crap you've got a mixture of textiles and ceramics and there's a bit of copper work maybe we could think is followed by the idea of materials associated with women and labor associated with women and the idea of reclaiming those as materials and objects of protests and activism yes I mean %HESITATION working textiles and my work is always kind of based on the history of women in textiles this association between textiles and embroidery and femininity and how that was a kind of shift in the kind of sixties and seventies to feminist artist be claiming these kind of domestic craft is something that instead of being seen as a private thing in the family home that was kind of placid and didn't hold any meaning they we re claiming those methods as vehicles for political expression and in the way that textiles is an awful being completely pushed aside and marginalized and masculinity discourses that pile say women pushed aside from history from politics so it made so much sense Hey put this modernized integrated media and to be the voice of women who also felt pushed aside and not legacy has always influenced my practice and you know at the time when people like Judy Chicago when faith Mingo when they were away can it was a massive thing to bring ten thousand to a gallery space is really destructive an unusual and that's not so much the case now let go on album is on the table at the moment you can see it coming into the small canonical narrative of the final but he still got the history life you bring of textile workings the gonorrhea brings with it the history of oppression and marginalization in protest it's still holds out we just need to figure out a way to work with it that knowledge isn't brings this history in both a lot reflects the shift in politics now thank goodness well less tax totals you can see the labor that goes into it you can see the stitching so the actual work actual crafts person ship is actually visible in the finished product often as well yeah but I think you know it's interesting to you people often invest a lot in what they think is hundred labor or specific kind of domestic labor actually if you take the works here there's no hunt stage apart from along the bottom of the bonuses hunt blanket stitch in the tussles a handmade Benton's attacks because I use a lot of industrial equipment I use digital southwest city my embroideries and we'll send off footage to prince if things are not really part of what my what does it situates itself not hung crossed narrative but actually is it was a very forward thinking I'm using industrial equipment so it's six again in between two different spaces but it's interesting whatever you do you ever quit minis like I use huge scale massive equipment and it still holds six quantitation of hunting butchering envoy to behave in high and it's quite a colourful exhibition there's very clear relations and a lot of it's embedded in research on the suffrage movements hundred years ago and so there's very clearly a serve the purple white and green from that of the S. P. N. things but there's a lot of tanks and lighter purple sent those kinds of softer colors as well maybe pastels may be Juliet would you like to say something about the color when we first started working to get the I just skill chef that new bridge projects hosted as part of that practice makes practice program we talked about the colors that we wanted to work with clothes that we enjoyed working with the time and lots of those came out in all the support that we made together entirely collectively when we were thinking about this project we wanted to reference that those colors that we use dead within the works in the works different expansion changed the often I've used of oranges and pinks and Reds in my practice rest their joys use of pastels and light colors soft pinks in her eyes and I think we just sort of drawing on those items for this collaborative exhibition as well as having those notes to the suffrage movement territories been talking quite a bit about our tax I work kitschy flashlight a bit more for us the way so you work with ceramics and firing and that sort of thing as well yeah similarly a marginalized medium of ceramics as textiles and different artists who are collaborating using both ceramics and textiles within that practice and that's becoming sort of a more used work or way of working the Carolina Chandra's a big influence of mine have tufting and hoped use of that and then the associations %HESITATION so supplements run next to the US to see them a ceramics I think there's a really great interesting but personally the way I work the two larger parts of been like hand built in the hand built elements of them together using some scratching and there's been lots of layers and lots of layering of colors %HESITATION as well as different places and it sort of adds to a similar way which I work where I am there in different ways of working as well as different media and then with the couple Lexi referencing the ones the glazing is different as of the first ones %HESITATION pastel soft colours because they were slips and it was a thin wire firings which achieves a circular appearance where is the stone with firings a stronger higher holiday which can produce more interesting glaze situations and chemical reactions thinking as well abate the idea of domestic space and domestic materials there's quite a few banners or pendants and the exhibition as well and those would be to take going to be March twelfth proposal here one of P. eve made things to go away with on marches which I talk about it but that is well said maybe the quoting process and applying it to protest banners yeah I guess I've been busy this year yes wants me to do stuff which is nice I hope people still meets do things after they see it at all of my works do you teach your phone kind of like a bonnet making history and the closing history Indian and my %HESITATION J. season not one thing or another not quite something but have made more kind of like straight bonus this year and it's been really interesting like collaborating with different community groups and things to make them which is a little bit different to me and it's nice that it prompted it it's always been an influence but not necessarily something that I had actually like taking them out on Monticello I was commissioned for their perceptions project and I worked with the LGBT foundation in Manchester and Republika internationally women's football team so that was kind of like trying to find a way that people could interact with it and have a safe because a bomb is usually quite like a singular message and it's not struggles was trying to find a single message that represented in this case not just one group of people two groups of people and not it's because when you commissioned as an officer if you're expected to bring your practice with you at night trying to negotiate doc boundary between both the ship and community practices really hard I'm did it kind of during workshops and made patches like same patches are just part of the same visual language of protest in bringing you know shifting test cells into public space patches long meaningful way of doing not protests replaced so we kind of made pot she said that each individual person and I have the right and say I made the digital files and stitch them or not said that they had one on the bonnet and want to keep it at home felt like you know that they had if they wanted to represent it's not a different angle on it they could but these bonus I think it took a long time talking about making them and how do these tons and I had like %HESITATION we knew we could put all these different things on them and like the ponds we originally did really busy day and then when we were making that and we just kind of put the cot images dot one kind of like didn't want to put anything else on them and not so I think it's interesting about the kids the plan is but they don't say anything that's what is interesting though as well all in protest Gooch's they meet together and it makes it exciting different because there is no message it leaves that space VA and %HESITATION say for me they represent a little bit of a space of potentiality you could just put yeah right tests on it let it day and taken out when I'm on the site that was a possibility and it leaves us face each person if you're not gonna fix maybe trying to think of my work well it's not like put their own message into and not sweat the sweat so a little bit different from kind of the community what I've done stations about maybe even making the text very very small and following the outline of the cat so even if you were to take them out much is he wouldn't be able to see what they meant to representative but it was only upon closer inspection that you see something get those took about maybe adding there's a different date or thinking about in twenty twenty eight twenty full suffrage was achieved a hundred years previous and whether you know it will that be the same amount of funding available for that date is it going to be as well advertised and will that be yes I'm not finding that for something that truly is representation of achieving suffrage rather than this selfish because it was nice that they did to me this is the reason for that I think notably Israel it because even though there's not far below language the images of the cuts are very low does it's fair to say because they've got these little flower garlands on them but you've got something else and there as well if you'd like to so does the flowers are taken from different %HESITATION uses Serra joy found with associations with the suffrage movement in different applications violets and other flowers and then some of the of the small did she printed pieces were the clitoris is that I'd made previously and they were things I've been again similarly without layering coming through they were photographs of ceramic works I taken a year or so ago if I was still using them within my practice in this one she's in different ways so we print them off and cut the margin place them in among flowers may have a similar they don't feel out of place that differently they have the infinity is one of the you know that's something that's always been talks about described in terms of female sexual pleasure and an association to plants and flowers and unique symbolism so it did feel like the right space for them and I definitely see the clitoris asses twenty first century version of female empowerment so it seems like the right time and space to be using that symbol but yeah they were originally ceramic works the identity graph and used the original piece of a similar size actually to the ones that ended up coming out this is been taken down with large pot side mate sometimes it feels like the month he made it work then you come me show is so you need to always be making something use a very high feeling of production and close to production in order to be an artist a value to us as to which I think is something that isn't very positive for lots of different reasons and some enemies to think about I think one thing I could buy the clitoris images as well as that it's not just the external part it's optional internal organs so what's the whole thing I'm not externalizing of something that's hidden away and sites you know and so few people instilled so little is known about the whole organ on there still so many assumptions about the small tiny you know it's a iceberg metaphor Tanzania nine tents under kind of saying I mean do you think there's even people who wouldn't even realize what the ship is constantly talking about something and doing something that I go what this issue pretty flowers is like a and is very few people who couldn't see the association between the shape and what is a loss of my practice previous to this was very much around that education of people in the sort of humorous fun way and I made with sex ed videos and things like that which were pretty vague P. G. the %HESITATION so very informative and talking about the legs the long time you get to decide in the two bulbs which city the site of the actual opening and it's still so few people seem to really understand to know much about the house and about how often previously they thought that maybe a vaginal orgasm was totally separate it's for publishers okay when in reality that is the pictures that assuming the season was this to create that reaction and still be productive Johnston I think there is a big association between a personal understanding and a feeling of liberation and I think that's still some way to go with us if we don't mean to be towards by whoever parents teachers schools universities it's not going to be continually talk about positive relationships and sexual education you know it's never going to really become resolved I think surgery the cops iconography or symbolism there I think there's quite a lot to read into that but I think probably most recently the idea of reclaiming the idea of the Pepsi and recent times because of comments that president trump has made in recent years so there's quite a lot of kat imagery here would you like to expand on that yes Sir I mean there's always been a kind of long standing it's a station with women and Cox like kind of sorry this is what it is and I can go to aspen that ends a longstanding thing but is also being as well as a familiarity is being used as an insult to the qualities that Cox hub is not affectionate enough cool you know cold days to be nieces insoles for women say %HESITATION I came across these postcards which even the reset treatment of cats and I initially thought they would probably suffer it say like pages of kittens saying I want my face as I that's cute the four day night feminist cafes Heston like hundred years ago that's crazy and then you realize that they were actually on T. suffrage propaganda and I just thought that like miss reading was really interesting because in the context of the women's month ches and how that symbolism in the woods as well as the infantry that comes with it with pussy I just think it is a really interesting power law like the way that we read these things differently another interesting thing about the anti suffrage pace because it cost too often used as a domestic symbol and there were tights women and not way so in a lot of the propaganda it was depictions of men struggling to run the home without women in the women abandoning them and they're always father struggling with children it is usually like at Mount Everest caught in the background or caught somewhere in the image as well which is kind of interesting I've been kind of working with kat imagery in my own practice as well because I'm kind of interested in like interspecies relationships and feminist vegetarianism and ones that I kind of quit interspecies relationships so I made some what about a woman %HESITATION Edith all right he was the very very little known first with a lesbian magazine in the state which she types on how tight my it while she was at her job because she had nothing else to Dave in fifties and it was called vice versa and she just distribute today she wanted awaits me other women and she made this incredible magazine which is like getting reviews of popular coach %HESITATION and I try to put like a lesbian spin on it and she also writes songs and might be appropriate coaches songs and put less been everything and she was this incredible woman and no one's got a clue who she is that was a project %HESITATION on by the lesbian herstory archives in New York where they were at the yeah they were documenting video documenting the lives of women and being involved in the lesbian politics movement in the state and they got this fantastic clean home video interview with her and when she's %HESITATION to and she just lives in the house full of cotton so many of them and I will rescue caught it's just so funny and joyous to watch because she's you know these people respect and how is this political form of what he did %HESITATION this quite what she's wants to talk about hot in her contract with a cap ornaments and that they want to hear the songs she was singing in the fifties and she's just I write one about my cat and I just love the and that she %HESITATION they she was kind of like pot them even though it demanding you know she dreamed about marriage equality she never had thought for herself she didn't have upon and she died at the age of all these cuts and it was interesting to me I like to take yeah we we have this habit of having very positive narratives of gay history in and then once it's kind of like look at this progression narrative I just find it so interesting how she cuts not sure it doesn't end up in headline trying you know with a partner in getting married in white took says it ends with %HESITATION I like creating this week it quit hiding with will have hot animals and greatness is quite an interesting round yeah it's really hot in my consciousness but then it was interesting to you bring that into contacts with suffrage history an archive is well the thing importantly thing at least one of the pay he says it's a quote that's not that's relating to the a very well known suffragettes he was gay and had a same sex relationship but that's the same as what we've realized in this centenary year is high many stories were not hearing because you know we're not hearing about the disabled suffragettes or did people of color you know or the working class stories as much it's you know the pine Kirsten it's always the dominant narratives even if it's fired a soul you're both still taking night does Heddon more press histories of things yeah I think there was a law if lesbians have for jasmine lesbians will always be an Apollo is inquire with men have always been a pot is gave us companion women's campaign and I they also often left out at the normative I did used to sexism intensive day gain clear me of men on had to censor schism within feminism and they get pushed aside even that act that the full front voted days things like Ethel Smith you right the much of the women she's been battles quit now and as I keep a Kobe based in Manchester he was part of the suffrage movement and did a lot of campaigning in favour Himes who the T. P. this is an S. that responses that's not quite collection at pet personal tape is at LSE and she had pun at the you know how we feel about that relationship is documented still three poems in this off five days live this whole incredible life together she was an actress and lack of pre tape drive king and she was a chauffeured to the punk because everything how the field is working is the next on their high end Swiss and I'm B. let's try that and they were that way king and said via and Russia they were prisoners of war evilly Anissa photography and said B. F. doesn't push you when she died of influenza quite young that their homes continue to campaign throughout her whole life and I think it will say the opposite the women involved in the suffrage movement involved in say much more than not like it says on the quote there is two women chassis from that and I'm not actually Chris about punk K. Hessel brunches suffrage was sort of on life in a new disease and the pieces of women's bodies that that's often an artist that gets left his name himself which is %HESITATION these narratives around in a real disease and the maltreatment of prostitutes and women not having autonomy I've that body that forced examinations and and those kind of things and not as tasteful as like posh ladies in green purple and white so yeah I do think that would be more you often get into their homes I've got like three sentences in a book but now it's kind of done this substantial recession nine days diaries from her whole life and I see and Nunes threatens to just fall and I see you bring not narrative in the case %HESITATION throughout history that queer women being at the front of campaigning for people's bodily autonomy and not just the right yet I June the aids crisis last winter that whole time supporting and campaigning in the same way for bush my mother's rights that was that and always complaining but you know it seems this is not just marginalizes tree it is too specific not universal life isn't for everyone you know not yeah it's a bit frustrating in a way I was thinking by the ceramic vases as well I'm thinking if I eat them as vessels and women's bodies as vessels J. yet you want to say anything about it sports we did not live they make their collaborative work that we envisage together that you said you didn't want the textile looks much more ceramic work that's a good thing to touch on because I think I've had a conversation with a friend about that when you came to see the show how you know that's a very traditional way of envisaging the female form as a vessel and I think that is not necessarily narrative that we wanted to go down but it was more the way the ceramics were used by the suffrage movement as being here they had a different table sets and all the different sort of works that they may need to and I think as a form of protest and of a form of reading was because it highlights that long standing view of women as vessels I think of course when creating the works were about the celebration of the symbols that we use with enough practice as well as like a symbol that we gather that the that person hours to be gathered from from the archival research and use the sort of form as a pilot as a celebration rather than thinking negatively about hours within the company %HESITATION with his vessels I think it was intended in a celebration of difference specific elements I think it is interesting to kind of see those ideas come to the forefront and whether that was devised ways taken from the work because of the seats each individual person's experience of the works so I think it's something to be thought of I think it's important that idea of when there are groups of women the carrier were expected to carry or be vassals for other people's problems as well as their own you know just like what you're saying sorry joy there's a lot to mine I defy ideas while maybe that connects to the lesbian history of all of those things so much is coming to light you this we were there idea but you've been a reduced from history it just feels like the works are communicating or attempting to articulate things along those lines Juliet and Serah choice kindly showed me round the exhibition where we discussed specific pieces and more detail beginning with the ones incorporating the present arrow shaped I think you're talking about the looks of this rooms of referencing malicious I think that the different association with that because these were very much taken from the ones that we used during suffrage suffragettes marches you can see they were used in the research and you can see them being used to help they each represented a suffragette who had been imprisoned throughout the fight for suffrage and then the ban is obviously at this point in time they on you know you probably couldn't take the one month you have to have extra copper pulls out its but the jump is another you know that something people do often uses maybe a slow going on their own closing as part of that wave protests and I think this whole room kind of does that entrevistas coming to talk on the dated December eighth in the people she's just left the people's history museum on Saturday and she's talking about kites in my presentation in process and how the US who is being used as a vehicle people using their bodies to present political messages no it was a show at the fashion test house museum in London it was the ship out today and not import political importance of Tatius it out definitely draws on not a little bit I like the way it from a distance and he didn't really see the tax you just see a cute cats and then if you get close up to it you see the tax then and then you see the slave so right those are actually but like pets and I rose on the slave so you actually think a kit kat %HESITATION I want my vote %HESITATION okay there's something I really like that idea of drawing and I think you're saying that as well surgery but did post cards as I say okay cast so I kill oh wait there's something going on there that's not very nice I work this is hitting me in the face there's something not quite right I think that's the thing about feminism and feminist %HESITATION the I've always being invested in is its ability to resist constantly reshape reform and re claim things that has been previously negative into kind of symbolism for involvement not so it's a great about it and in the same way quicker Aug quit coach it does not as well you mean like the would quit was the season in so and it's been we claims and like a lot of my practices about that process it re claiming but doing it slightly differently you may like taking something and I re framing and picking different elements from different things and remodeling it into something else just an observation from may by the arrows as well the objects we were looking at a quite large they're like spears almost yeah in Noam because the water but six foot tall yeah I guess I was trying to go for something of a similar size to what they were carrying and then things but they're they're ceramic on top in the very top heavy but then there's a very simple wrapping around of the ribbon which is then cut into the same so chevron hours during my work in my practice I use it all of chevron's in trying to your neck shape age and I've been kind of like melting some of those different symbols together and taking on that prison hours and if using it with the clitoris as you know a metaphor for the previous situations for female sexuality and sexual pleasure and the negativity does often surrounded S. and possibly sometime still surrounds it and the kind of push forward for more sexual empowerment and education okay we take a look at the other gallery yeah when you come in this space when I came in earlier and I haven't been in before I just sold a quote that the Bacolod while because it's a beautiful objects quite glossy and shiny and then when you go up in the start to read the details on that got it there's quite apart from message and that is something quite regal about it today because it's quite a light purple and assertive ships that have been used yeah I mean I ease lavender lilac could is the law he's the kind of comes again I was talking about light retaining %HESITATION to insult so I was talking about how lesbians being kind of pushed out and I wanted to the women's movement say Betty free day and he right the feminine mystique I have some sort of compensation something she code that's been the laughing the menace of the women's movement the kids they were taking away from the real issues talking about relationships between men and women in domestic space and saying that it was you know putting the attention from my women needed the help the group of women who originally called themselves laughing diminished took on that name intend up from like sliding events and saying no this is going to be a collaboration with all women like we will have to be you know it's the same it's the same impression that affects the school and they eventually became the lesbian avenges so I kind of like take one not pasta %HESITATION nothing death thing is it comes from the system is being rejected from what we think is not much nice great anyway but also focus on the clinical side most lines have since been marginalized yeah you know it goes on and on I mean it's kind of cool regal fights because it was saying about the class numbers hit their high walls ready privilege %HESITATION walls from pipe which company and that's why I'm even strive it is in the will actually came from privileged families because they were bitching of slow and drawn in by saying about the code is in the office hi there what about how much they love hunting and killing thing and then I have not come cheap people and they would you know if she wasn't going to see if she had to work for a living eventually but I think them's Vincent so if with a family because we normally from that class you wouldn't work as an actress is something anyone that but she was great privilege and it left in this big house in Scotland and shop things I think that's interesting and every time I sometimes our history and made K. policy but we're not sure yet she shot stuff and she was probably a bit of snow but still alive as investments in the initials it's the same kind of central image on the table cloth as well say the initials it comes right now is when Adelina died in Serbia very high and asked for her stuff back from the house right and on the list eventually the stuff she wanted back with that bad and on the bad this call for evidence shows in Indonesia there was a wood carving tools such as wild as she asked for some might just say %HESITATION and rocketed by this imagined memory if these two women not carving out their existence and making themselves present in this domestic space that no one's ever gonna see but ended up in an archive and I owe these people really invest in this tiny moment this one thing on the list of stuff that was in the house this opens up this whole space reimagining this well that they've built together so yeah it was kind of thinking about creating this whole domestic imagined quite a massive which is pretty much all of my Protestant kind of does that a little bit in different ways but it's really kind of obvious and the influx these are on opposing walls so the quotas on one wall and pretty much adjacent to it on the facing wall listed table crossing them between we've got the plants with the fast works make up quite a range color should there Seattle six white soft oranges there's more dialects and soft blues with the marking so if you've got the confederacy midges secretly oximeters so we could talk a bit about the axis while and there's more of the arrows and female symbol the double female symbol to the double headed axe the upside down why and the double linking female simple old Serra choices and then the upside down chevron and cancerous on mine and then the prison hours are on the final respects of claims that sweet into a twelve if symbols thirty if you want to open the library so the double headed up to the hospital in my way because it's in these pieces as well and I used it these at all it's just kind of traditional lesbian symbol that kind of turned up probably around the fifties but I think it was that before that I get asked about the law and having a conversation with Phyllis Christopher everybody's trying to explain where it come from it's kind of one of those things that no one's really sure it came from and it just turns up on stuff you know some of it site link to South Bay and I'm is in the lead choose in this kind of all these different everyone's got a different take on it but it comes up especially like I've reset channel if seventies and eighties lesbian archival material and it turns up all the time and not but that's why I kind of like about it when you use the Kennedys histories and stuff you don't have an S. no one's gonna see nation there is no matter what it says this is what I this means this and this means not like it's a very open kind of thing that turns up at the last I'm not a site in these pieces and %HESITATION saves a north coast all in that does this amazing oral history project about lesbian simple but I in the forties and fifties and they took it's about how women have tight teas at the new school stuff on there right that could be covered by water the like kind of like to do that a little bit way not mixing up the time lines a little bit and kind of like cross pollinating the kind of symbols from different times and I'm refusing this one fixed and not site with the lab and I did anyone can actually probably tell you something to say I thank Hon I'm left name but it's up to the real pastries thing is well it's maybe there's no fixed point of origin things profile button there's no rack origin I suppose maybe that's the curse on the bonus of having no fixed origin is that it can be Canadians buy things that's really fascinating and then with one of the larger pots the picturesque symbol I think I discovered it maybe two or three years ago when there was a school shooting about French sex ed classes with three D. printing processes as a way of teaching people and everyone was just shocked that in their workplace like and then people continue to be shocked I didn't know whether I was only getting this kind of information because of you know my search history or something because as I continue to talk about it people seemingly still don't know and like you said you know it's still there is a lawsuit that is hidden and very available information but unless you get kind of shown it you don't see it and prison hours those %HESITATION in the recess room there on loads of different bits of imagery so they're in the March and the using the ones but they're also on some of that sort of mock prison golf you can see them in station invoices into the closing dresses in the a prince of the wiring and then chevrons are big so there's a positive very clear similarity between the chevrons and the ones our heads and the prisoners we took the Andrews asking the panelists because originally we were talking about maybe having them all having a V. pointing downwards then we thought maybe be nice too in the the other two bonus we have one representing each of us and then one representing them suffrage movement so the central Katz was originally going to be Sarah joys cast hang but she wasn't she was unplayable so we end up using stock cats and then we have C. B. and says he wakes Phoebe is there a joint tenants cat and Pacific is mine and my partner's can passed on the last been flocking to the US one this call at the office phones paying for them than white lighter color yeah the little named little east Lothian five exactly no it does yeah but if you've got a good life yes and then it it specifically the W. S. P. A. is not but I think nine days we just associate the green light to park phone with suffragettes yeah I was not sure the well yeah I mean we've done pan suffragists and suffragettes anyway kids yeah the W. S. B. U. A. suffragettes and they were very different to the subjects you came before them and I think people don't really like to take a fall days T. movements in two groups of women because it was a really stop contrast between those that using military tactics and those who would I think people want to like gloss over a little bit this civil disobedience and like you know the kind of blowing stuff off and I it's funny how we fetishized in some ways and I'll cook check but like a lot of the things that they were doing fit into terrorism narrative now but I didn't contact terrorism there you today they were just just a little bit disgruntled the post office and then we'll sources is out today yeah in Kenya in a way and I it's become marginalized and sanitized and I'm kind of hoping that in a way the fact that we had this posh on investor I had high hopes right talking about different kinds of numbers to it in different kinds of histories and in our suit quite fell short of my expectations so I'm kind of haven in a way we've got tons head that there is a ten unit got off before the next son of this week the maybe people would have got the cells together and like we can learn because I was thinking that they have a problem with with these continue anniversaries I'm kind of dates and all kind of chronological way of doing history in remembrance and it's a little bit like I say in the foot well I got what it yet but what about next to any kind of especially when you think means it's feminist well he's quit well you know I feel like I've always go to like new right myself around a day or none of the history of something trauma and called it something that such a base in the local and not something like a lot especially for queer histories and women's histories change of law which is often what we celebrate on mock and memorialized through doesn't really work for those kind of pastries and thoughtful and that Narine things down I'm not really sure what the answer is it just doesn't say a hundred percent comfortably for me having to fit into these kind of technologies if government when actually they were all fat ass radicals and then do the ads to the two year color sentences deep red and orange and pink yeah I regionally I think when I was studying online was using a lot of very sort of muted colors it was lots of you know terror I was still using ceramic cloth terracotta is of the sort of problems and possible some things and also found objects in very very different from one company doing but what changed was leaving university kind of discovering how the all wheel seemingly works at the moment %HESITATION has worked in the past and feeling like of the the very clear gap between you know the the fifty sixty women who are studying ways and the two or three or four who are continuing to practice office wall a vast majority of the men who is studying a role continuing to rice's office that's a generalization but that was what it felt like at the time I definitely think there was a lot to finish season of people who are speaking to who simply felt similar when I was jarred by this and I felt like the work had been previously making it was very very subtle and it wasn't about you wouldn't have a feminist sort of tenderness and then as I left and to sort of discovered all this my what became a bit more became louder and with that the call this changed and they became out of you know what what could produce was me his force be with you and it was a ceramic double ended dildo that I created for shows I had out workplace gallery and it was about me and my personal feelings feeling kind of undermined in the workplace so it felt very resonated with that and then not just kept going on and on while at the time I was creating another fine example when thing that's when I noticed all this knowledge that definitely beyond their own selfish but I'd only just discovered around female sexuality people sexual pleasure and positivity and the organ itself that it felt that that needed to be pushed out civil needed should be out there and spread more units or live a twit doors we see like choosing Cox and things like that and you know that now he doesn't need to continue and also that does need to be in the narrative and the clitoris that's the sort of simply can score on the inside of twelve known to know which is kind of really sad but then if you keep doing it and then hopefully they'll be a continuation and growing I'm standing on the ledge do you both feel that you have to be ambassadors for the sort of things that you do you like do you feel the need to feel pressured to do feminists worker cleared as be in work or anything like that I'm just drawn to it you know when you start to feel something and you feel empowered by that feeling how could you not to teach make work about that it just feels like the natural progression of your practice for me yeah I mean I think all of my what kind of %HESITATION to ethnographic and not not just how it is on hot yeah same thing it's just kind of well I mean John T. you and I don't feel pressured to do it but like I said I just feel like I'm constantly explaining myself making excuses and trying to like open up the door for people to view it and make them feel comfortable and not people just aren't used to encountering what maybe like isn't relating to that personal experience you know this is a few artists that would position themselves as lesbian or may have it jaws like when I tell someone it jobs and then I %HESITATION that's me I'm interested in the space of bumping up against things and people and it's not quite working in China situate yourself in this very specific voice and you know I mean total us not universal so no one's going to be interested in it I think it's to say %HESITATION defiance you know people don't like the word lesbian people you know if they're going to be anything that could be quick and identifies but eighth and yeah it is just a kind of I'm just gonna make well I want to me because it's what I'm interested in what makes my work speak because it is the %HESITATION to know fate I thought so what it does is it brings in a personal and the collective in kind of negotiate stays and now I'm just trying to find my wife working but do you have to explain a lot okay explain my tiring because you feel like you you have to educate people yeah I'm the rest as well as the yeah I think it's a good thing and a bad thing I think that people think that all right yeah he's not the test cells in the Connery we let women in the out both the comic money but we let them in so it's fine and we've done it and it so it definitely is a judgment around that it's boring for it's been good and insight for textiles in particular do you feel like that and craft unit Crofton I hate the words I did see policies crafted in both a biography or community what people see it as something that student finishing move with finishing not now but you never do that so I I start painting and I think there still is a is still the most nice medium you have got these different set of expectations I think it's still a feminist work here you're asked to explain itself why do you feel the need to do that like is always the question because again I think is this that you know we still got this idea of universality and it's a white man exactly it's a diesel yeah and human I think that is still a problem in people I like it is in DC like that as well yeah show yeah I absolutely concur I think that was the you know one of the things about that was really what we had to reset from the material I'll cover research this does a bit of that underlying explaining and research that was undertaken as well as the hand of the comes of the exhibition because there are lots of subtle nuances the coffee into an A4 sheet that need to be addressed and the information thing people still want to know the information I think that it's having it available in this kind of way that mean this vein and this way the space walks but perfectly for that and it was really great to show the work we've been doing for the last two years which didn't fit in with this exhibition specifically was nice to have it that because the phone it you can see like solicitations which doesn't quite fit it was nice to be able to show that yeah yeah it's a beautiful objects it's not in the in the images online for the exhibitions it wasn't overly surprised to see this table as well yeah this is the kind of fight over the stuff that we may move in that did this I was gonna stab us it didn't take the school of the downed opnieuw bridge not so in math and made by some of the criticism I get in my way because it is so complicated on it so you reset space and like I've got a story about every little detail every piece what about Maggie's online dot doesn't necessarily communicate across like you get at in Paktika animation but you know you can't necessarily read all that so it's quite nice when we took him out of sight labor of explaining this yeah and you can come in here and recognize the images recognize that our roads that quotas the cops like you can see and that's really nice to me because I felt I thought something I've struggled with it my way and also just you know having the space to do it we have this room so we could do it I'm thanks to the LSE lots that suffrage time line that you can download for free at that images that will set a bad apple online you can download them that copyright free and %HESITATION save me my PhD is around that's been archived and it's really good to to be able to kind of raise awareness and I show them all the archives in contemporary all and also that you con like this leads online archive site that's been history all five of the films and stuff one line that you don't have to get to New York to reset in an archive so that's nice to like help out here the people in to do a little bit I thought labor he's about acticin the way you've worked was how much extra interesting stuff like when you're talking about %HESITATION quotes going into all the details but if this is because when they lived in Scotland and the dog at the bottom it was a hunting dog and the car at the top at night because of the way we've worked I noticed some of those things that was really great to have those extra elements and extra things well you see much progress in the buff yes and it's really interesting about your practice do you think there's a bit of anti intellectualism coming through in those criticisms I'm quite and inquisitive person and I love that there's so much detail behind what you're dating you I love that there's discoveries to be made in their stories behind things I think there is yeah I think people are so used to like the way that museums and art galleries now this oppression this responsibility to explain and yeah and is part of why the discourse of anti intellectualism and I think the other thing is there's this separation between different groups of people looking at my west Seneca made this quote that weighs five minutes only for the simple reason if different that's being cases from different films and television programs and it's interesting to see the different people in countering it and some people can go through the whole thing and just pick out every single light when it came out what the phone lines and they've got the access route into that very specific visual language and someone else to look at but I want some light and then it and the symbols like the lap race at someone else instant news what that is and to me that's what's interesting about how people encounter things on different levels with that rain context and knowledge and Mike it's okay sometimes thought might not be for you thus the someone else not to if you have people he thought language belongs here and I think not the silence if not understanding another people's language is really interesting and we don't think of the intensive lesbian culture particularly if you think of quick coach at what came on like pops up you have to not drive queens I'm interested in sight coal like wealth and visual material and the language that really is a language that we need like the difference between different people encountering the workers must it not so I find fascinating so it's like trying to find a way the balances between shattering and I think people access that language and %HESITATION said Hey there's a little bit this is how it is right yeah it's funny that idea of it's not universal only a select few people look at this you know and it's like well is that he's been left Titus do you have any I think you know similarly some of the different symbols and things when someone does recognize is really great because you have already right next in conversation and those don't really inquisitive Aktion and it was on a conversation either way it is a positive thing I think there is a really interesting relationships to the symbols on a language that is forged between people who understand it but it's not so exclusive this hopefully this conversation could hinge kind of rectify that so while it may sometimes seems that is very close and very specific to certain people I don't think that this would be the case I think it's available information it's about the motion only but that's done in talking to the people about just where the news other people can kind of find that information for themselves a service ticket or significant set of that process and fragments rather than one piece so it's in several parts into stocks and three Martin yeah this house around okay that we only have access to a small medium build could take the opportunity to talk about a great symbolism practicality yeah yeah I I think you know you smoke is intense though that they were great I love thought what you encounter something with the material and not demands that you do something or ends up influences is nothing not to K. nothing it's like he's invited and I like how this must be it six because I guess with separating intensive time like this is %HESITATION just stuff that yeah you have to date see the kind of sketches I'm not dissimilar doesn't use a sketch with property this is my life it's got specs yeah and then I'm really bad with haven do you want to talk about the events that %HESITATION alongside the exhibition of it say this is screening tonight which will be nice in cooperation with the knife %HESITATION which is a feminist film archive connected and they're gonna mazing collection of old phones say it's kind of taking up all the themes if using craft in using domesticity in bringing out into public spaces a protest toxic but how that was adopted by lesbian activist says a lot of office %HESITATION is a film about section twenty eight with lots of banners in and stuff it's a really nice way to see how people to cook tucks the fridge top tech and is a phone booth seventeen reusable what do lesbians do it bad that's cut from two films because it's kind of cutting the domestic space with a school in public space and night that's what the suffragettes dead yeah it's a nice way to see the similarities with kind of seventies that's been a physician and then on the fifteenth of December two two four Helen I'm suppose he was the pro bom dia PC's medium she is coming to talk about dress Impreza in place I'm talking about some of the collections at the people's issues in so she's also has been very busy this year do you both want to cloak stuff to your website social media or anything all the information about this exhibition on by anal gallery about a month and then my Instagram is at Judea Fleming J. U. L. I. E. T. F. L. E. am I NG my website the same but with the U. K. I do you pay for things on my ends from two separate joy for on the website she surgery for adult cold I will pay for a day since if one doing papers and things will be on that today I can't thank you both enough for taking the time to show me around everything and explaining everything so beautifully thank you so much thank you yeah if you find this useful or interesting and would like to support the continuation of this work become a member on Petri on dot com forward slash AP cultures a monthly pledge from as little as one dollar look at you access to extended show notes on previous one of two nations and pine sterling are gladly received at PayPal dot me forward slash P. for their for details on hi my name is used and what resources we need to see the website at all the official culture stopped wordpress dot com follow AP cultures on Twitter and Facebook for regular updates the music used is from common grind by air tone available under creative Commons licensing at stake CC mixer don't work you can also support on Patreon thanks so much for listening caption next time